Snowboarding's declining popularity

[Beckmann AG]

Maybe we just need to be honest and wonder if Alpine Snowboarding just doesn't look that appealing?

There are those who make it look rather unpleasant. But then a subliminal reminder to schedule a colonoscopy will probably save a life or two.

I don't see us attracting people who don't already come to ski resorts. I just don't. That would seem about like marketing sailing to bowlers....... And non-skiers/boarders who are involved in other winter sports probably don't want to take time/money away from those other activities. Snowmobiling is fun, but I'm just not going to do that.

Right. So we should forget about the heavy machinery operators, and the retired firemen?

The thing about most recreational possibilities, for those with the means, is that they quite often go stale. If you can illustrate any similarities at all between hardbooting and another activity, you at least have a chance of attracting some new blood.

With many movement based activities, the sensations are similar, though the contexts differ.

Like hanging off the side of a sled going mach .5 around a corner bears no resemblance to the same on a moto? And that, to a quality toeside turn?

You figure the cost of tooling up for a season of noisemaking in the woods, and then what happens in a lean snow year? A sane person might just look for an alternative means of mixing cold air and motion.

Mark the path, and see who walks it.

The thrill associated with bowling has much to do with hitting a variable target, time after time. That's not all that different from skillfully manipulating the wind, or hitting the sidecut dead on, turn after turn.

You probably haven't forgotten what that was like; way back when?

It's the successful application of skill beating the odds that counts.

Consider as well that as an organism, we gradually become jaded to what was once thrilling, and need to seek a bigger 'fix'.

When alternative thrills are accessible, they are more likely utilized.

Rock climbing went from dirtbag disreputable to hot seemingly overnight.

In part because of barrier reduction...

Sure, we turn heads on the chairlift above, ........ Of the people who think it looks cool, how many say "I could never do that", or "I bet it takes a long time to get that good", or "I'm not switching (back) to hardboots", or "I don't want to be a beginner again" and never try?

How many of those who notice, and want to pursue their curiousity, have a ready means of finding accurate resolution to their ignorance? This is simply an image/marketing issue.

I Maybe I'm just discouraged, maybe I'm just in a remote location, but I don't see any growth where I ride. Furthermore I don't see any kids coming up behind us 30-somethings.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm probably doing more HB trade now than ten years ago. And random children of questionable ability on both skis and softies are not dismissive of alpine gear, as they were not so long ago.

If the boards and grips are readily available, the kids will get involved. It's in the software.

I think the only way for a store to carry alpine gear is if it is located at or on a mountain with a demo program and instruction. And said mountain needs to be centrally located. Ahem, STRATTON.

Hardboot gear, at least for the newbie, is one of the few areas where brick and mortar has an advantage over internet sales. Obviously a good bit of thought needs to go into the process, but look on the bright side: The product shelf life is waay longer than it is for the softboot/ski market. Boots haven't changed in years, there are only two or three viable binding manufacturers, and the boards are mostly user friendly.

I know a guy at a good sized Destination resort with the time, knowledge, and general interest who could probably facilitate a demo program. The question is, is there interest in such a thing from the niche suppliers?

Far as I know, nobody has proposed such a thing as yet.

A question specifically for Dingbat (you're out there somewhere...): Does a ready supply of gears make any difference?

-Bottom line is that skiing is easier to learn for most kids, I see that first hand every day.

-As a parent, I want my kids to develop a love for winter sports - not be frustrated for 3-4 days before even linking turns.

-Burton LTR boards are great, but extremely limiting after day 2. As we know LTR boards are everywhere.

-wrist injuries are very common with the learning population. Slams are quick and violent in snowboarding - this scares the casual learner away.

...The ambiguous edge feel of the burton ltr board is not satisfying and does not instill confidence. Just 2 cents

If you want to generate enthusiasm for the first timer, ensure their safety, and empower their need for exploration.

Skiing is easier to learn in part because it is reasonably close to the process of learning to walk, and children are none too distant from that. The head, shoulders, hips and feet are all aligned with the primary direction of travel. Snowboarding, on the other hand, is rather foreign, in fact disorienting. This can be affected to the positive, but the solutions do not mesh with the current vision of the teaching/manufacturing establishment.

So it's not so much the process of riding itself, as it is the product on offer.

LTR boards are crap, pure and simple. Rounding the base interferes with the our sense of where we are in space, as there is no distinct point of contact. As you noted, this does not instill confidence in the user. Nor does the use of cheap materials.

The boards tend to default to a spin, rather than a glide, particularly when they are set up centered with equal splay. When a board spins, and the operator has no way of knowing where they are with regard to the surface, or whether they are moving forward or backward, catching an edge is a when, not an if.

Much of the perceived hazard of learning to ride can be 'engineered' out of the process. The problem is that no one in a position of influence has the understanding or the inclination to do anything about it.

When you take the time to prepare the gradient, build appropriate boards, configure the bindings properly, and provide relevant guidance, the process is predictable and fairly low risk.

Just to be clear, setting a beginner 'duck' is simply ignorant.

I have thought about skiing, but I did not want to...... be a beginner/intermediate again, and take away from snowboarding.

For what it's worth; hockey players, gymnasts, ballerinas, and snowboarders who don't actually suck have little difficulty taking up the planks.

Winter sports in general are very expensive' date=' anyone have any numbers on overall numbers for winter sports or new participants? [/quote']

Numbers have apparently been flat since the '70s.

Really young kids (unless they're Shaun White) don't have the strength and the coordination to learn on a snowboard.

I'll respectfully disagree. They have the physical means, and generally the motivation. but they're fighting an uphill battle with the equipment. In addition to the other design issues, the boards are also too wide. This is a problem for many women as well. The need for greater strength dominates accuracy, balance is lost, and you know the rest.

Originally Posted by CsmuggsSlams are quick and violent in snowboarding - this scares the casual learner away.

Yes they are, and yes it does. And as the original article mentioned, this is especially an issue for women. For every woman who wants to learn to ride well and is prepared to suffer some pain to do it, there will be ten who simply want to look cute in ski gear, and will cry and go home the first time they take a mackerel slap. A lot of women are concerned with how they look - and traversing a set of skis on a bunny hill is much more appealing than falling on your ass every time you turn.

It doesn't help that the notion of 'paying one's dues' is still well supported.

Again, Image, marketing and engineering.

When the on-snow needs of the womenfolk are met, they're into it far beyond the fashion. What really blows is when you remove the obstructions related to their equipment and procedural misinformation, and then later that day their wise husbands/ boyfriends/ lovers manage to 're-install' the problems.

If a bunch of hicks in the Maine woods can drastically reduce the injury rate, just think what the smart folk can do.

That's the way it used to be with all snowboarders. Dumb questions from the skiers, instant bond with the snowboarders.

It probably doesn't help that, as a people, we are becoming more and more isolated from each other by way of technology.

The concrete bond of shared experience has been eroded by the allure of abstract association.

By the same token, all that good information about hardbooting that yearns to be free can be disseminated far cheaper now than just a few years ago.

The solutions are there. What remains is the the vision to do something about it, and the means to back that vision.

[BXFR70]

to Beckman AG, I agree that skiing can be easily picked up, I can go throw on a pair of skis anytime, and have some fun and make turns, I just figured it would take awhile for me to get where I was on a snowboard if that makes sense. I think there have been a lot of good points overall on this thread.

[BlueB]

I woul dare to argue that with skis learning is easier/quicker on the beginner level, while you become (or at least can pretend to be one) an intermediate/advanced quicker on snowboard. From there, it takes about the same, very long period, to the expert. Most just plateau at that mid level, in both disciplines...

[Erik J]

The OP asked

How can we make it easier for more folks to get into hardboots?

3 pages?!?! W.T.F. people?!

I have two words for you - BOOBS

Boobs will sell anything. They feed the world, cure cancer, make people smile, end poverty, etc etc etc - and they will sure as poop get people into hardbooting.

Jeebus Khrist, do I have to do everything around here?

/thread

[floBoot]

Allee,"...mackerel slap...", hilarious that made me laugh..." .

"...A lot of women are concerned with how they look..."

You tell it like it is..

I conclude that Erik's marketing ploy would work...and a few wash board stomachs from a female's point of view;)

Edited January 28, 2013 by floBoot

[dano]

So when are they going to get rid of the stupid jibber parks and give us more groom???

[dingbat]

So when are they going to get rid of the stupid jibber parks and give us more groom???

Families are basing their decisions on which hill to buy passes for on the quality/number of terrain features an area has. So I'm betting it won't be for a looong while, if ever.

He, he, ......boobs.

Not workin' for me Erik......:D

[OhD]

I dunno, man... My spare tire doesn't seem to help me get into hardboots, so I kinda doubt that boobs would make it any easier.

[kinpa]

I don't know boys.... my boobs don't seem to get in my way at all! I really don't think I'm too top heavy, but the new boots are a little snug!! guess old boobs don't exactly sell the product either!

[charliechocolate]

I kept thinking how in the world "boots" would make hardbooting more popular. But then again my dyslexia turns b's into t's.

[Dan]

Erik J - priceless; charliechocolate - nice followup.

I'm digging this thread, lots of good comments and some great comedic relief too.

I have to agree with the people who said "of course snowboarding is declining in popularity, riding duck sucks". My (alpine) riding buddy's nephews recently took first-time softie lessons, and the rental shop refused to set up their bindings any other way than duck. Those rental shops are signing their own death warrant, and frankly I won't be sorry to see them -- and softbooting in general -- shrink dramatically.

There were some comments about alpine not looking "cool", and while I have to agree that it's hard to capture the appeal on video (though some certainly manage to do so), there's no shortage of people who appreciate it in person. At the top of the hill at NICE two weeks ago, a mixed gender group of older skiers (maybe mid-60s) came up and said "we're having so much fun watching you guys ride." I think there are enough people whose interest is piqued by seeing alpine riders that if we could provide demo boots/bindings to all interested parties, alpine would at least keep its population stable, if not grow. The big challenge, as others have said, is getting those demos out there. (And another aspect of that that we haven't discussed is getting the demos out there without massive liability if something goes wrong.) That's a tricky one because personally I'm not always going to be willing to sacrifice my riding time to get someone set up on the gear, and I'm sure many feel the same way. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I certainly hope that we continue to keep our fine equipment makers in business.

[quest4powder]

..."of course snowboarding is declining in popularity, riding duck sucks".

???

I ride softies, duck, with no problems. Most other softboot riders I know ride duck. Most pros do, too.

What specifically is the problem you see with riding duck, and how is it contributing to snowboarding's alleged decline?

Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts.

Q4Pwdr

[energyrail]

..."of course snowboarding is declining in popularity, riding duck sucks".

???

I ride softies, duck, with no problems. Most other softboot riders I know ride duck. Most pros do, too.

What specifically is the problem you see with riding duck, and how is it contributing to snowboarding's alleged decline?

Thanks, in advance, for your thoughts.

Q4Pwdr

Well it may very well be my technique, but I can't carve a heel side to save my life while riding duck. I don't consider myself a real good softboot rider either though. And I don't think riding duck is contributing to the decline of snowboarding. Riding duck with a wide stance on a board short enough for a twelve year old doesn't lend it self to good carving technique. But I do see CASI guys carving in this way. Skis that make it harder to carve and easier to slide are the norm right now, and skiing is on somewhat of an upswing.

[Dan]

I ride softies, duck, with no problems.

Q4Pwdr

Sorry, photo/video evidence is required to support this assertion.

Just kidding, the problem with duck is that while it may be great for slopestyle or halfpipe, it seems to be pretty worthless for a beginner who wants to do anything other than falling leaf. It leads to legions of snowboarders who think that going in a straight line and then speedchecking by swinging their back foot around is the pinnacle of snowboarding. That really isn't that fun, so they eventually drift out of the sport.

[kmartshopper]

There were some comments about alpine not looking "cool", and while I have to agree that it's hard to capture the appeal on video (though some certainly manage to do so), there's no shortage of people who appreciate it in person. At the top of the hill at NICE two weeks ago, a mixed gender group of older skiers (maybe mid-60s) came up and said "we're having so much fun watching you guys ride."

I was at least one who said that. I don't doubt that the vast majority of people who see us carving think, even if they won't admit it, that it looks hella fun. Unfortunately fun does not necessarily equal cool. Dungeons and Dragons is fun and PBR didn't come back from obscurity because it was a great tasting beer. Someone on this site had a sig IIRC... something like "Alpine snowboarding is the only way to both snowboard and display your individualism" (very loosely translated from memory). That hits it pretty much on the head... the demographic that matters statistically (youth), has a narrow band available to them into which their 'individualism' can conform. Just doesn't seem to me that alpine boarding is likely to fit in there. Just one opinion... but I would have bet against Sean White's hotpants too... so what do I know.

[dingbat]

...... the problem with duck is that while it may be great for slopestyle or halfpipe, it seems to be pretty worthless for a beginner who wants to do anything other than falling leaf. It leads to legions of snowboarders who think that going in a straight line and then speedchecking by swinging their back foot around is the pinnacle of snowboarding. That really isn't that fun, so they eventually drift out of the sport.

I'd agree with this 100%. Anyone else teaching never-evers seeing otherwise? I've got our rental shop setting up +8 and+18 or there abouts. We use Rossi gear and their bindings have a quick release center disk that makes changing angles, or stance direction, a 30 second job. Total luxury when you need it in the middle of a lesson.

[kinpa]

I posted in an AASI nation wide forum about a month ago about a preferred stance for a never-ever snowboarder. The answer I got was from a nationally ranked guy? 9 / -9 ugh. My old ski school director (one of a few reasons I teach at a different mountain now) insisted every board coming out of the rental shop is set up 15 / -15. I had even set up an all-mountain board like that to prove to him I could do it with plates and hard boots! Same guy who insisted a beginner lesson should spend as much time riding switch as regular. I'm sorry, but at some point everyone needs to choose a regular stance. I am so fed up with AASI that I have become mostly a ski instructor now. AASI refuses to acknowledge the needs of our generation! One good thing I heard last Saturday from a younger kid who is Level 3 certified is that there is not so much freestyle required for a level 2 certification. They are separating it to be a freestyle accreditation like it is for the skiing. Maybe ther is hope. In a few weeks I'm going to attend a Children's Specialist Level 1 exam... Haven't decided if I'm going to do it on skis or snowboard yet. Part of me really wants to just tell the AASI folks where to go... (Oops... Can I say that here without getting in trouble... I'm sure there are some AASI folks in our ranks). That's just how I feel though... It's hard to support an aging snowboard population when our own instructors can't recognize our needs. Oh well...

Edited January 29, 2013 by kinpa

[Rob Stevens]

I wouldn't worry about it.

[Rob Stevens]

Like it's going to go back to 0... Pffff.

And who cares how / what anyone rides for a board or a stance? Neither of those things is "killing snowboarding". Want to know why duck is used in beginner lessons? Because it works. Anyone who says it makes someone who learned that way less capable of "carving" later is out of it.

Want to introduce people to carving? Change the stance. You don't need specialized gear at all... Anything with sidecut and forward-angled bindings on it will do. Anyone who says otherwise is too dependant on their crutches.

Stances? Boards? I just rode with a few guys who would smoke most of the people on this site with no bindings at all and constantly changing stances.

If there's a reason numbers are declining, it's the cost. Period. Statistically, people who are serious make up more of the overall numbers than ever before. It's the part-timers who are bailing. The fun doesn't equal the cost / effort, likely.

If you're going to fret about the OP's statement, hone in on the real problem... More shredders tracking the pow and trenching the cord than ever before... That's what I see, but I live in Paradise, so I have a different reality.

Cry of the Terminal Intermediate? I'll bark it... "Just riiiide Maaan".

Edited January 29, 2013 by Rob Stevens

[kipstar]

Snowboarding overall is suffering the same as Apple; it's easier to be cool when you are fringe; harder when you are perceived as mainstream.

From a carving perspective, I'd say the growth in skiing in the pipe/park is a good thing; the guys who know how to carve outside the park on skis...those are our audience to convert to carving; as one race coach said to me in Japan, there is no line cleaner than a hardboot rider. The guys who see themselves as not wanting to ride a snowboard in the park...those are also our potential converts.

As long as there is a good racing scene, skiers stick with racing style skiing. Ditto for the alpine boards, and some of that filters down to the rest of us who want to carve you carve you carve even when is icy. We also see new niches (well not so new anymore) like the EC guys appearing as well.

I'd say any sort of bricks and mortar retail is precarious at the moment; with the net and online, all sports are getting hurt; we don't need thousands of manufacturers, just the good core ones. SG, Blackpearl, Apex, etc and others are all relatively new; in other parts of the world hardboots aren't as dead as USA (e.g. Japan).

A few more type of boots would be good though.....

[terekhov]

Small wonder, then.

simply brilliant. thanx.

[KingCrimson]

I feel that this forum is very out of touch and close minded. It reminds me of a lot of car forums- people who are heavily myopic and think their CAI on their Honda is the cats meow and it'll beat any suped up Ford Focus and drift like Ken Block. There is this attitude that softies are useless or somehow detrimental to "good riding" when the fact of the matter is hardboots just arent that versatile. A lot of people here have been hardbooting since I was in the womb, and I fully believe that at the time hardboots just were that much better. But to see so many posters so astounded by the leaps and bounds in alpine design in the last 5-6 years that just assert that all softboot decks are the same and technology hasnt changed because they are just popsicle sticks is crazy to me. I have a burton fusion that a friend graciously gave to me, and i rode it with hardboots a lot, i even raced bx a few times on it. It carves amazingly well. Putting softboots on it and running it duck doesn't change that. i use double forward because i want to avoid boot out and to do so with duck would be too much splay. And really, the fusion isn't anything special. Its not considerably stiffer or more grippy than my thrift store Burton Floater. Sure, production softboot boards pale in comparison to the boutique stuff we all ride, but that doesn't make them bad boards by any means. What Sean had to say makes a lot of sense- I can definitely see that the market has shifted way too far to park, with a disproportionate number of people riding small jib decks for no reason.

About two weeks ago I started a job with Sharpshooter as a full time action photographer. I work on one of the most heavily used trails here at Mammoth. I basically spend four hours a day standing watching literally thousands of snow sport participants ride and ski by me. The two days a week im not doing that, im on the snow most of the day. I would say about 30% of people riding really belong on park boards, maybe 60% on all mountain/freeride shapes, and 9.9% on something like a bx board, and about twice a day I'll see a guy who I think should be in hardboots, or a hardbooter that accounts for the last .1%. I also see the occasional hardbooter that would definitely have more fun in softies. I think way too many people ride park sticks when they would be happier with a longer, stiffer, and more damp board. But as far as people who would actually carve an alpine board well and have that be their focus as it is ours, i really don't think there are a ton of people outside of the current community. Certainly not as far as i see here at mammoth. Softboots and duck definitely are not a barrier to carving- thats what i see leaving the most trenches and i dont think they explain why people dont carve.

[tufty]

I feel that this forum is very out of touch and close minded.

Realism? That's not gonna go down well.

[puts up feet and starts munching popcorn]

[Aracan]

Bottom line, less then 10% of skiers carve, and they are the ones that know what hardbbooters are doing, everyone else is clueless, as in "oh', look at the pretty colors, they shine" or more specifically:

Why is that person "zigging" around like that, what's the point?

I hear you. Yesterday I was skiing with the kid, did some large-radius carves - only to get nearly hit by a straightlining softbooter

[philw]

There are several separate strands to this thread.

Most people I ride with are on soft gear or even skis, but so long as they can keep up that's not a problem. With the good snowboarders I sometimes have the opportunity to hang out with you can't really tell who's riding what from a distance.

Sometimes soft booters will express surprise, as they thought "hard booters" were stiff and rode weird. I laugh: some of you are and do. There's room for everyone.

I don't think I've ever met a competent snowboarder or skier who tried to convert me to soft gear. I'm like them. Incompetent soft booters often appear threatened by my gear.

On the questions in here:

Q: "Why is snowboarding declining a bit relative to skiing?"

A: "I don't know. Regression to the mean perhaps? Most snowboards are poor on piste."

Q:"Why are hard boots not taking over the world"

A:"It's easier for casual riders to deal with soft boots. I can't understand why all cyclists don't wear shoes with cleats, but the fact remains that the vast majority don't."