Base Grind - Is this Normal?

[GAK]

A local shop (here in Halifax, NS, Canada) got a stone grinder for snowboards last year. Until then if you needed a stone grind the closest spot was Mont Tremblant in Quebec (a 12 hour drive).

I race SBX and I am pretty competitive in our local series, and I usually make it to a couple NORAM races each season for a race-cation. I'm not on the world cup or anything, but I want my gear to work well and I take hysterically good care of it.

My Kessler is two years old and due for a base grind... So I took it into the local shop. When I picked it up I was upset because my explicit instructions NOT to wax or sharpen the board (grind only) were ignored. Now the edges are at 90º instead of 88º where they have always been. I can bring them back to 88º, but it is a pain.

Additionally, when I got home I noticed 4 or 5 spots on the base where it looks like the stone stopped on the board, they can be felt as a definite indents. See the iPhone pics below, the quality isn't great, but I think it looks fairly obvious. I have never had a base grind on a board before, so hopefully you knowledgeable BOL members can tell me if this is a hack job, or can this be expected from a stone grind?

Edited December 21, 2012 by GAK

[Ernie00]

doesn't look normal at all. Can you feel the bump?. One of the main problem with stone or belt grinder is the operator. Trust me I know I used one in a ski shop and before tuning real ski and board I had to practice on rock skis many times. Now when I need a structure or flatten the base I only use the automated machines it takes the human error out of the way. Unless the guy is a complete idiot and doesn't know how to operate the machine, they punch in the computer what you want and the machine does the job. There are a few here in Laval / Montreal area. One of they really does a great job and most of the time he lets me stick me head almost in the machine ! :)

[jskyhawk]

:(

I'd talk to the owner, see how they will compensate you. I would recommend that the board be shipped to a professional tuner so they can correct that mess they left you with. If the owner refuses I would never go back, that's really the only recourse you have. Another grind should correct that(while removing the precious life of your K), it will also be easier for the pro to return your angles to 88.

I'd also guess that the board is not flat on the bottom as it should be, you will probably find that the edges are lower to the ground with the center part of the base being slightly raised. I use the SkiMD for all my tuning and that's the first thing he checks with a straight edge. I've taken a board almost directly from one precision tuner to the SkiMD and he showed me immediately how the bottom is not flat.

[kieran]

word-of-mouth can condemn just as easily as it can commend. it's even quicker using the internet.

taking your gear to a shop that ignores your specified instructions is something you'd do well to warn anyone who'll listen about.

[lowrider]

Don't have a stone grinder but i do have a belt machine for ski's. You cannot stop feeding the ski or board as you dress it. Any stop motion will result in some mark or gouge left in the base. Exactly what pattern depends on the dressing you give the stone or the grit on the belt the speed you feed the material across the machine the grit of the belt or stone finish the am't of water or coolant flowing etc. Your particular problem was probably the result of hesitation as the operator was feeding the deck across the stone. Unfortunate yes. Causes ? Inexperienced operator, distracted operator, didn't give a s--t operator. In my opinion the failure that was unforgivable was that they didn't follow your instructions. Did you point out to them the shortcommings of the job they did for you? On the bright side they didn't expose the core. I would not try to correct this with more grinding. Perhaps future experimentation into new shops should include a scouting mission with a rock board and written instructions taped to the board. I guess we now know where not to go in Halifax! Looks like you took your Ferrari to a lawn mower mechanic. Sorry for your loss. I have seen a new deck from the manufacturer come with the tail ground to the wood core so don't feel too bad. It was a learing experience for the operator of the machine and you but only if you bring it to their attention.

[jskyhawk]

word-of-mouth can condemn just as easily as it can commend. it's even quicker using the internet.

taking your gear to a shop that ignores your specified instructions is something you'd do well to warn anyone who'll listen about.

I agree that word-of-mouth can condemn but definitely try to make an arrangement with the owner to work with you. Chances are that, you aren't the first to experience this issue. The owner is already aware of the issue with the employee, and will do what is necessary to keep you as a good customer and preserve his reputation.

As tempting as it is to flame the new shop and hope they go out of business, do realize your next closest tuner is 12 hours out and if the new shop can get their team and equipment running properly that this will be a good resource for you. If you build a good relationship with the owner now, you will probably get preferential treatment in the future. I would go back and be very specific what your expectations are (write it down!), take a min with the owner to read over your directions so that there is no confusion.

[kieran]

I agree that word-of-mouth can condemn but definitely try to make an arrangement with the owner to work with you. Chances are that, you aren't the first to experience this issue. The owner is already aware of the issue with the employee, and will do what is necessary to keep you as a good customer and preserve his reputation.

if the employer was already aware of the issue with the employee, why were they still wreaking havoc with the grinder? but yes, maybe the shop owner will be decent enough to ship the board to SkiMD and have them do the work properly, at their expense. just a shame about the life that's been taken from the edges at this point.

[GAK]

Thanks for the feedback everybody... No real surprise from the responses, I just wanted confirmation of my inclination before I contacted the shop.

FYI, it is a great shop. They have a clean and well organized facility and the ability to do real ski and snowboard tuning (although this one was butchered). They really take part in community events with outdoor winter sports and running/triathlon in the summer. It is always my preference to support a great local shop like this one. I will contact the owner and let him know my dissapointment. Perhaps he will suggest o solution or compensation, perhaps not. I will keep you guys up to date.

[110/220V]

That is a horrible event. People ask to keep business local, and here is what you sometimes get in return. You have to look and find, and of course ask opinion from other racers.

We understand about your upcoming event. How far until your actual inscription? Yes, because if you speak to the owner without emotion, and excitement, you may persuade the shop to sincerely consider at least covering the shipping to a legitimate shop (that you have communicated your needs and disclosure of problem), who is willing to at least look at your board. Of course, it helps that they own the newer Montana Autofeed side/base/and surface stone grind. These are typically ski racer shops as the bro shop will never ever have this equipment or tech saavy.

This is another reason to befriend the core skiracer shops, they likely keep up on all FIS events, have their local ski/riders on Europa FIS and sympathize. The caveat: you will need to take your competition seriously and maintain this professional relationship, before after and during your season, after season end during summer, during pre season wax clinics at these type shops (the rep will always use the core racer shop for such).

Ostracize yourself from the pro bro hang on shops, if you are serious, because they are only concerned with the bubble gum locals who slide the rails and magazine jibs.

Some other viewers who have done leg work might have suggestion, you only have to pick your shops and follow up. This next noram (?) event you have is likely too much to ask if unreasonable for the ski shop regular turn around, but you discuss the owner and if they agree you are now on the hot foot to followthrough accordingly. If you are a part time trainer and racer with a part time career to put food on your table, you are begging the call of time wasting for such exception. I say this because you must be sincere with the best tuner you find, despite other obligation that may pull you from following through to support this shop when it needs you to simply show up and support (with presence) at a ski clinic, tune clinic. If you trust, you may understand the shop will function and must function after your race season is over by paying ski team parents who buy admission to such pre season rep events.

OK you get the idea. If you want, I can offer another race shop (keen on these issues, and who actually owns an autofeed and base geometry, the gentleman also knows how to use it, and does not take random snowboards only the best. The shop is in the US (Calif) and you will need to have the owner of your shop understand the geographic logistics/shipping necessity. If you are still reading, I assume a lot from what I have written. I don't do the message often, but am only giving you an alternative way of thinking about how you address your competitive intention. It's that important, besides everything else I write like dedication toward proper nutrition and training, but what ever.

Best success with your temporary problem, and if you need to compromise this event (in attendance or result), it is necessary for you to make this next step in eliminating the variables that you cannot control otherwise. Ask, find, and nurture your next tuning environment, when you need it and when it is not so convenient. You will learn more than otherwise, and will really understand how to identify and address the way racers think, but I do not need anyone to agree. Regards

[tufty]

**** me, they did that to your €1000 board and you're not down there removing hands and legs with a freshly dulled chainsaw? You're a calmer man than I.

Another base grind is not guaranteed to bring it all back to spec, and is going to further shorten the life of your board. Likewise bringing your edges back to 88°. Far as I'm concerned, theres one solution, and *only* one solution to this. Shop replaces your now damaged board with a new Kessler and gets to keep your old one. No discussion.

I've had something similar to this last year (although done to a rather less expensive board) when I took my rather aged slalom board in to be tuned. The brand-new-hire unskilled goit that did the job took my edges from a rather blunt 88° to - umm - 92°. Christ alone knows how he managed it. Shop owner drove me down to the nearest place that stocks alpine gear, watched as I picked my new board, then picked up the tab.

[michael.a]

Your particular problem was probably the result of hesitation as the operator was feeding the deck across the stone. .

Yup.

As tempting as it is to flame the new shop and hope they go out of business, do realize your next closest tuner is 12 hours out and if the new shop can get their team and equipment running properly that this will be a good resource for you. If you build a good relationship with the owner now, you will probably get preferential treatment in the future.

Yea, because everyone just sits around all day hoping to get their equipment ruined in order to "flame" (it's called feedback, not flaming) some ski/board shop, and then sit back and say "well, theyre the only game in town so I'll just take it up the butt". Get real. What's with Americans always pushing the "give em a second chance", "they were having a bad day," "work together and be merry" BS, as it's getting boring.

I pay you for a job you better deliver. I'd expect not only full compensation to have the board repaired by someone like SkiMD including shipping and packaging, but compensation for your time and the lost value of the board (in terms of edge/base life)

FYI, it is a great shop. They have a clean and well organized facility and the ability to do real ski and snowboard tuning (although this one was butchered).

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when a customer shows up with some really expensive skis or a pretty rare race board to put two and two together and figure out the guy knows what he wants and therefore deserves a tune far far better than the upteenth billionth "wax and sharpen job" for the yokels. The fact they allowed an inexperienced or lazy operator to tune your board speaks volumes.

Appearances deceive. I used to also think that a clean, bright beautiful shop stood for quality and care. Maybe a decade ago it did. Some of the best ski shops and mechanics I know work in places that I would say are downright filthy. Not all, but 75%.

[pokkis]

Base grinding with stone can be painful experience, it will show all issues with board flatness.

Your case, no clue what happened.

[dingbat]

That's a total ****-show.

Whoever ran that should have been practicing on retired rental equipment, not your Kessler.

If it were me, I'd be very politely, and sternly, talking to the owner about replacing the bord.

Base grinding with stone can be painful experience, it will show all issues with board flatness.

Your case, no clue what happened.

They relied completely on the machine to feed the board rather than keeping hands on the work and making sure it fed properly.

Edited December 21, 2012 by dingbat

[Donek]

While correcting this does require a tuner with experience and skill, it can be done. I see no exposed core as described by lowrider. It would be necessary to grind through aluminum first and that is not even evident. While this does look disconcerting, there would appear to be some over reacting on behalf of the respondents here.

Given your original statement that you have had the board for 2 years and this is the first base grind you've had performed, you're likely to dispose of the board before you ever grind all the base material off. In most cases, it's tuning from the side that reduces the steel to almost nothing before you go through the base. This can be corrected and you are unlikely to know the difference once it has, as long as it's performed by a qualified tech.

The shop deserves a good tongue lashing and you deserve a refund. The best tune in North America is likely to come from Mike Desantis (SkiMD). Send it on to him, and you'll get it back in perfect condition.

[GeoffV]

The shop deserves a good tongue lashing and you deserve a refund. The best tune in North America is likely to come from Mike Desantis (SkiMD). Send it on to him, and you'll get it back in perfect condition.

I was going to recommend Mike as well for the tune, I'll be bringing by new Rev over there very soon. Given the cost of our boards, I think it would be nice to have either a sticky thread or area on the forum where BOL'ers can post trust worthy tuners and their location. Good tuners are hard to find. I only know of 3 good shops in New England.

[D.T.]

Good tuners are hard to find.

Amen, brother!

[GAK]

Update:

The shop offered to send the board to SkiMD for a proper tune and assessment on their dime.

Unfortunately, this is my only board for both racing and training, and I'm not willing to part with it just before an event (in case it isn't returned in time).

Aside from the compromised life of the board, my major concern is that the base is not as 'fast' as it should be, but that may not be evident until timed qualification runs are completed and compared with other high caliber athletes. What are your guys thoughts on this? Will the base be slower? I've been to FIS events where one second could be the difference between first and not qualifying...

I could scour the Bomber classifieds forum, and make a few calls to shops around North America and get a new BX board in time for my upcoming event. But I'm not sure if the difference will be significant...

Please post your thoughts!

[jskyhawk]

Update:

The shop offered to send the board to SkiMD for a proper tune and assessment on their dime.

Unfortunately, this is my only board for both racing and training, and I'm not willing to part with it just before an event (in case it isn't returned in time).

Aside from the compromised life of the board, my major concern is that the base is not as 'fast' as it should be, but that may not be evident until timed qualification runs are completed and compared with other high caliber athletes. What are your guys thoughts on this? Will the base be slower? I've been to FIS events where one second could be the difference between first and not qualifying...

I could scour the Bomber classifieds forum, and make a few calls to shops around North America and get a new BX board in time for my upcoming event. But I'm not sure if the difference will be significant...

Please post your thoughts!

That's very good news! I would definitely take them up on that. I'm glad talking to the owner provided an avenue to correct your problem. I'd bet whoever was doing the tuning on your board is now scrubbing toilets indefinitely and rightfully so.

Make sure you get a "hyperglide" service performed at SkiMD.

As for your race, I would go ahead and race on that thing the way it is, then send it off to SkiMD. The tuning that is currently on the board shouldn't hold you back a ton, make sure you use lots of good rub-on wax before the race. Do you have a wax wizard (Ray's way)? How important are your next few races? How tight is the competition? Do you expect that a mediocre result would prevent you from qualifying for some later event?

The grind that you have now (even when performed correctly) is no comparison to hyperglide. Also it's likely you won't find another new/used board with a racing grind already on it. That said, your best option is to race what you got. I would definitely plan on having the board out for tuning for about a month, for those of us that are local to SkiMD we know it takes a long time for Mike to find an appropriate time where he can setup his tools for doing racing snowboards (especially going into the ski season). It's best to leave him with ample time to coax your board to its full potential.

Not a bad idea to have a second board if you plan on doing any serious racing, its a pretty bad feeling if you break your only race board on the eve of a big race!

[GAK]

That's very good news! I would definitely take them up on that. I'm glad talking to the owner provided an avenue to correct your problem. I'd bet whoever was doing the tuning on your board is now scrubbing toilets indefinitely and rightfully so.

Make sure you get a "hyperglide" service performed at SkiMD.

Thanks, I will request this when the time comes.

As for your race, I would go ahead and race on that thing the way it is, then send it off to SkiMD. The tuning that is currently on the board shouldn't hold you back a ton, make sure you use lots of good rub-on wax before the race. Do you have a wax wizard (Ray's way)?

The wax & edges will be on par with the equipment of any top NORAM racer. Any idea to what extent the grind referenced above could hold someone back? +0.02 seconds or +2.00 seconds on a 60.00 second course?

How important are your next few races?

It is a small FIS event, with somewhere between 50 and 100 points available to the winner. FYI, I'm 30 years old, with an infant daughter and a fairly demanding career. Judging the importance of a race is difficult. I don't get to do many, so I guess they are all important to me, but I will never be on the National Team or considered for the Olympics.

How tight is the competition?

Tighter than I'd like! It is within my capability to win the event, and that is my full intention. Nonetheless, the competition will be stiff and I may not even make the top 10...

Do you expect that a mediocre result would prevent you from qualifying for some later event?

The winner of the event will likely be rewarded with enough FIS points to enter a World Cup event. I would love to be presented with that opportunity, but there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that affect that outcome.

...Also it's likely you won't find another new/used board with a racing grind already on it.

I was under the impression that Kessler's, SG's, Oxess', Apex's, etc. are stone ground (maybe not Hyperglide) and effectively ready to race (with the exception of race wax and the rider's preferred edge & base angles). My Kessler had a beautiful broken linear structure when it came out of the box.

...I would definitely plan on having the board out for tuning for about a month, for those of us that are local to SkiMD we know it takes a long time for Mike to find an appropriate time where he can setup his tools for doing racing snowboards (especially going into the ski season).

Understood. Unfortunately, my season is 3.5 months long and I am not willing to spend 30% of it without my only BX board. This will be a consideration for the off season.

Not a bad idea to have a second board if you plan on doing any serious racing

I do take my races seriously, but I am by no means a serious racer. It takes a massive commitment to continually race at a NORAM level. I guess I have other priorities in my life... As for a second board, it has always been a consideration. But I have never been able to justify the expense to myself when the cost is equal to an actual ski vacation. Maybe this will be the 'straw that breaks the camel's back' and I will buy a race board (obviously this one will be my trainer). Seen any good deals?

its a pretty bad feeling if you break your only race board on the eve of a big race!

Did that at this event last season!! Ruined my weekend for sure.

Thanks for the comments,

Greg

[jskyhawk]

Greg,

I can relate to most everything you just said.

there is nothing that says you won't win if you take a bastard file to your edges and never wax the board. I wouldn't get too hung up on it. I feel that being successful at anything involves:

diligence

luck

a repeatable method

I bet you will do fine, your base looks relatively new and those blemishes don't look awful. There are many different combinations of equipment and tuning that some days aren't going to benefit your results at all. There is no exact recipe for success and what is working one day may be completely wrong the next. I'd love to have 10 different rigs and the time to know how to finesse them all, but yes the reality is we are all just out to have fun and not to win the Olympics.

GFDF (Go Fast Don't Fall!)

[NSSage]

Update:

The shop offered to send the board to SkiMD for a proper tune and assessment on their dime.

Unfortunately, this is my only board for both racing and training, and I'm not willing to part with it just before an event (in case it isn't returned in time).

Aside from the compromised life of the board, my major concern is that the base is not as 'fast' as it should be, but that may not be evident until timed qualification runs are completed and compared with other high caliber athletes. What are your guys thoughts on this? Will the base be slower? I've been to FIS events where one second could be the difference between first and not qualifying...

I could scour the Bomber classifieds forum, and make a few calls to shops around North America and get a new BX board in time for my upcoming event. But I'm not sure if the difference will be significant...

Please post your thoughts!

Good to hear they are fixing it for you. I would be so pissed if someone did that to my board I cant even imagine what I would do in that situation. I am always scared to get a base grind but I take it to a guy who does the tuning for out mountains ski race team he is the only guy here I will let work on my board.

[Kab]

Hi Greg,

What's the name of the shop? Upon reading the thread, it seems the shop is taking responsibility for their mess-up and I have a couple of boards badly in need of grinds. Haven't been ground before and I would be sure to specify how important it is to have a 'smooth operator.'

Also, I used to race Norams/WC and if you're not a seriously committed racer, I don't think you'd ever notice the difference with your board the way it is now versus if it was perfect. It took me 4 years of full-time training to get close to the podium at a Noram with perfectly tuned boards and after 5 years, I was still somewhat far from the WC podium. Keep it well-tuned and focus more on technique. If you make even one mistake on the course, you'll likely be off-podium. Don't sweat it :) Have fun with it!

Thanks!

Kab

PS - Oops, looks like A1. Hope the rest of my info helped :)

[GeoffV]

Greg, call Mike DeSantis at SkiMD, there is no way he'll have your board for a week. His usual turnaround is a week.

[Marc H]

http://www.skimd.com/

[Marc H]

What ever happened to the speed factory in Campton, NH? Dropped by there on my way to exit 32 and it was gone. It was a drag cause they had deals for USASA members.