SunSurfer Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Sitting at my computer a BBC news video on a 3-D printer trade exhibition caught my eye. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20047744 Got me thinking that with modern technology for externally & internally scanning, recording, and rendering complex objects that the fact that the moulds for the Northwave's have disappeared doesn't actually have to be a problem. It just needs someone determined enough to collect a range of Northwave shells, put it all together, add some decent buckles & make it BTS & Intec compatible, rebrand, and possibly pay some royalties to Northwave. Not me, but ............. The enormous design potential for 3-D printing is mind boggling. SunSurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wampum Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Sunsurfer, Great idea, you're ahead of the technology. I've had a 3D printer for about 4 years. It's amazing. It has changed the way I design and prototype parts. But it's not ready for high performance real life yet. My machine runs ABS plastic, which is a run of the mill commodity plastic. The machine prints ABS at about 80% the strength of normal molded ABS. An it's much less stiff than stock ABS. The parts I make fail by de-laminating between plastic build layers. I have built several complete chairs that were easily strong enough to sit on, but eventually they always broke. Good boots are Polyether thermoplastic, which is a kick ass super tough (even at low temperature) plastic. ABS at below freezing is pretty brittle. 3D printing is not there yet but it won't be long. Here are some of my 3D printed prototype parts for my Head Stratos Pro boots. I'm getting the final parts machined in Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted October 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 My conception was to scan to scan the original Northwave boot cuff and shell, to produce the 3-D CAD design. Then prototype and test buckle attachments, the BTS and Intec mods using 3-D printer, before finally making a conventional set of new boot moulds from the finalised CAD. When the day comes that 3-D printers can handle the plastics that make the actual boots I envisage a complete custom boot service from high end manufacturers. For people with feet like mine...... aaah I can dream. SunSurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heroshmero Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Won't that be sweet? Boots printed for YOUR feet. I can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracan Posted October 29, 2012 Report Share Posted October 29, 2012 As far as I can tell (I'm not an engineer), the problem with re-making the Point boot is largely that with designing and producing any new hardboot: The molds for making the plastic parts (for a full size range) would be very expensive. 3D scanning will not solve that problem. 3D printing in usable plastic would, but as Wampum pointed out, 3D printing is not there yet. Ever wonder why not a single new hardboot has emerged in the last 10 or so years? And by "new" I mean a shell design that's really different from what a given manufacturer produced before. All the boots currently in production have been around for a long, long time. Of course, there is a huge difference between, say, an RC 10 and an RSV Superlight, But the basic shape is still the same. I believe that's because of the huge initial investment it would take to produce a different shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) 1 mold would be in the 20 K euros area ( Maybe Arnaud ( arcol) who is an plastic injection specialist will give us more precisions )..So basically 1 mold fits 2 x 0.5 mondo maybe 3 (3cm) at best..it means you need to make at least 6 molds to have a certain range / line of boots....6x20K = 120 K not including the high cost of prototyping, making the molds work and finding the good plastic mix...would double that cost at least...then batch making would be very pricey due to low quantities ( setting up molds again etc....)...How much are we ready to pay for such a boot....€500? € 800? € 1000? I'm sure even if northwave lost the molds, there is archives somewhere in that factory with the drawings / CAD of the molds somewhere to be found ( the molds have been produced by some third party, maybe in italy for they are good in mold design....find this guy and you short cut a lot of the hassle! Nils Edited October 30, 2012 by nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm not sure we're quite down to this, but I'm worried that when my beautiful Head Stratos Pros die I'm going to have to go back to Ski boots or something. I'm not sure I ever saw a "northwave" - can someone post a picture? For sure the moulds are useless to anyone other than us, so I like the idea of tracking them down. I'm sure they're out there somewhere. You could try crowd sourcing, but with 120K the barriers are going to be too large. Are we sure that the costs of this stuff hasn't come down with more flexible machinery? How about alternative methods of manufacture - what about something made in a completely different way? How about ski boots again, there are tons of those out there. Some people hack the **** out of hard snowboard boots, could some a group of people work out a way to bastardize an existing ski boot to make it work? The sole would be an issue, but what else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Believe me...thery are lost! Right after we launched Swoard ( 2002) I went in search of them molds, and got in touch with half the people managing northwave on the phone ( $$$ before the skype years..)..and really they had NO clue where they were....they thought they would be in a wharehouse somewhere but it appeared they got lost...maybe the aluminium has now become an audi or high end car...? N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboarderdude Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 does anybody have a pair of northwaves? I think it would be possible to remake the molds though already stated- not cheaply- but doable. I think us carvers need to design our own boot, something that would be the best we could make, considering we have the most experince on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) I know a NorAm racer who has a pair, he told me that one of the reasons people like them is the progressive flex. Phil: here's a pic I found of one that someone put a BTS on. Edited October 30, 2012 by Neil Gendzwill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 theboarderdude - what foot shape would you make a new boot for? Head? Deeluxe? UPZ? If you pick either of the first two, I wouldn't buy a set even if they were otherwise perfect. That's the real issue here; people pick the boots that fit their feet and either customize them or just suck it up and deal with how they work. ...they thought they would be in a wharehouse somewhere but it appeared they got lost...maybe the aluminium has now become an audi or high end car...?N I worked in a plastics factory for a couple years. We lost a few blow molds to thieves. There's a lot of aluminum in any given mold that fetches a decent price at a recycler. Not to mention the beryllium copper portions (resistant to wear and had similar heat transfer properties to aluminum), that stuff was hyper-expensive! It was disgusting to think of someone stealing a $50k mold and getting paid $200 in scrap fees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracan Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 it means you need to make at least 6 molds to have a certain range / line of boots....6x20K = 120 K Sorry, but I think your math is way off. Let's say your size range is 24-31 MP. That's 15 half-sizes. If one shell size covers 3 Mondo half-sizes (optimistic, but probably feasible), you need 5 molds for the lower part of the boot. Let us also say that the tongue and cuff can cover 5 half-sizes. You need 3 molds of each, 6 in total. That's 11 molds in total. Times 2, because you want to make left AND right boots. So, you need 22 molds, or $ 440 K. Also, I'm not sure that you could get each of those molds for 20 K, since some of the shapes - especially for the lower part of the boot - are quite complicated, with hollow parts etc. Plus the costs you already mentioned, plus the cost for liners, buckles, spring systems ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 I know a NorAm racer who has a pair, he told me that one of the reasons people like them is the progressive flex.Phil: here's a pic I found of one that someone put a BTS on. actually its not a BTS, its the original spring system of the .900/.950. It can be modified simply by customizing the springs. Compare to the Raichle RAB its enormous advantage is that the springs work both ways> frontsides and backsides. There is plenty of info regarding what spring choice is good on a topic somewhere on extremecarving forum. Something tells me the BTS is a nice inspiration of the northwave system too ;)... Anyway I don't really need new molds because I have two pair of .900, one is 2001 and still looking good, and the second on a shelf still in plastic, ready for the first one to break ( I should be able to use them till I cannot ride anymore due to old age...) !:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 Sorry, but I think your math is way off. Let's say your size range is 24-31 MP. That's 15 half-sizes. If one shell size covers 3 Mondo half-sizes (optimistic, but probably feasible), you need 5 molds for the lower part of the boot. Let us also say that the tongue and cuff can cover 5 half-sizes. You need 3 molds of each, 6 in total. That's 11 molds in total. Times 2, because you want to make left AND right boots. So, you need 22 molds, or $ 440 K. Also, I'm not sure that you could get each of those molds for 20 K, since some of the shapes - especially for the lower part of the boot - are quite complicated, with hollow parts etc. Plus the costs you already mentioned, plus the cost for liners, buckles, spring systems ... Yes you're closer to the real cost and qty...don't forget the prototyping and the huge cost of pre series, testings etc....unless the exact plastic and injection specs are kept known by someone at Northwave...its going to be discovery again....I think that the estimation I made back in 2003 was around 600 K euros in order to be able to be on the market and ready to sell....The production cost was somewhere around 150 euros due to small series... huge then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wampum Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 The only major innovation in carving in the last 6-8 years has been in the "non-tooled" areas. See Titinal boards, iso plates, bindings. Bomber has the right idea- iterate using small run CNC batches then improve. They now have the best product and have only invested in a few low cost tools. The idea behind this thread is how do you make an improved boot without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in tooling? CNC Boot? Maybe the uppers? Buckles are easy, rear spring system is easy. There just no easy way to make those shells in all of those sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Wampum, I noticed you're in Toronto, if you want do a 3D scan, I have a pair near you (Ajax) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracan Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 The only major innovation in carving in the last 6-8 years has been in the "non-tooled" areas. Exactly. There are dozens of small, dedicated board manufacturers out there, because all you need to become one is, basically, a press and know-how (and the materials, of course). The entry cost into the boot business is simply prohibitive to that kind of entrepreneurial spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Indeed...but maybe the future lies in the improvement of the concept of the .950/.900: why use plastics since its not really needed for bend ability. The future boot might be a boot where the shell is stiff as hell ( carbon?) and the bending / flexy part will all be small tooled parts.. The idea in the Northwave shell is that the flex is controlled by the spring system, not by the plastic and its unpredictable reaction to cold/warmth. So maybe molds are not necessary anymore, and the future shell is a fiberglassed protection for the feet, rock solid, and CNC machined parts + springs...An idea would be also to have a hollow like chassis around the feet, with a outer protective shell for weather and shock protection. ( like a race car). The high end Dynafit competition touring shell is basically two carbon parts linked by an axis. Nils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 (Sorry I missed the bit earlier about how you'd looked for these things already.) Ok, now you're talking. So although I love my hard boots and can't believe anything so comfortable or controllable could be built another way, if the entry cost is too high, there must be other ways. In passing the cynical part of me wonders if some of the popularity of soft boots then is not related to the lower manufacturing costs of them. If you want fashion stuff which people throw away regularly, the manufacturing costs need to be kept to the minimum. Not relevant for skiing as soft boots work so badly there that people would notice ;-) As suggested if not spelt out..... the way a hard boot works may be largely fortuitous. They work sometimes because the materials deform in a way which is good enough for what we're doing with them. It's a bit like old bicycles: their basic frame design was intended to hold the wheels in place, not particularly to perform the way the rider may need. More modern bicycles have kept the basic frame pattern, but the materials used have changed radically. So here we have an inner boot, a shell, and some external springs and junk. The soft boot guys have an inner boot, and then an outer boot, and then some external plastic junk to fasten it all to the board. It's not actually the "hard" nature of the shell I want from a boot, it's the control I can get from using it. If someone could build a boot which was a combination of inner and external shell which delivered that, I'd happily use that too. I don't think the conventional "soft boot" approach makes sense, because it's three badly engineered bits cobbled together. But I'm sure there's another way to do this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracan Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 In passing the cynical part of me wonders if some of the popularity of soft boots then is not related to the lower manufacturing costs of them. If you want fashion stuff which people throw away regularly, the manufacturing costs need to be kept to the minimum. You may be on to something - a softbooter colleague replaces his boots on a yearly basis (for safety reasons - he doesn't trust them to hold up to his mass over more than one season). Now take the manufacturing cost vs. the street price of average softboots, and you have got a solid business model That said, I agree wholeheartedly. What makes hardboots unique is the combination of high control and low overhang. My feet are MP 29.5, and I simply do not want to ride the angles ski boots would force on me, nor a board so wide it could accomodate my angles without overhang. If a new concept comes along that delivers this combination, it might be a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 regarding the full tilt boots, and i suppose any other boot people consider to be of the right geometry / flex; are they strong enough as produced such that the heel and toe areas could be machined to be lower profile, in the case of the toe, and recessed/cutaway in the case of the heel? (intec/fintec blocks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboarderdude Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Indeed...but maybe the future lies in the improvement of the concept of the .950/.900: why use plastics since its not really needed for bend ability. The future boot might be a boot where the shell is stiff as hell ( carbon?) and the bending / flexy part will all be small tooled parts.. The idea in the Northwave shell is that the flex is controlled by the spring system, not by the plastic and its unpredictable reaction to cold/warmth.So maybe molds are not necessary anymore, and the future shell is a fiberglassed protection for the feet, rock solid, and CNC machined parts + springs...An idea would be also to have a hollow like chassis around the feet, with a outer protective shell for weather and shock protection. ( like a race car). The high end Dynafit competition touring shell is basically two carbon parts linked by an axis. Nils I think your on to something... however, how would you get your feet in? the tougue could not be carbon or the like... it would need to flex to put your foot in. I like the idea of carbon or something for other parts though. carbon fiber would also make the boot SUPER light. does fin have anything to say about this?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 The future boot might be a boot where the shell is stiff as hell ( carbon?) and the bending / flexy part will all be small tooled parts.But I don't want a shell that's stiff as hell. Bending just forward and back along a hinge is not what I want out of a boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boarderboy Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) ... a lightweight, walkable, Boa-laced & heat-moldable inner boot that's inserted into a carbon exoskeleton when you want to ride? It's been discussed here before. I think DrD opined that it would be near perfect with an added BTS-like walk-mode option and a hikable sole design on the exoskeleton (probably not carbon). I last boarded in AT boots, and that's where I'll re-start this year. As an elder, non-performance oriented freerider, my criteria are simplicity, comfort, walkability and light weight. Even with their ski-only design, I suspect I could buy the current "stock" ski Apex, use it in either of my two bindings that will accept ski boots, and ride very happily for years to come. Apex, I think, launched at the beginning of our (non) Depression, and they're still here - now with a range of models, the least expensive costing $795, I think (?) That price is inching down toward the cost of a new, state-of-the-art, boarding hardboot. Hope, someday, to demo the limited-distribution Apex & see if/how it works. BB Edited October 31, 2012 by boarderboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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