Jack M Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 A long time ago, about 1988 I think, Chris Karol produced an instructional video with that title. The simple wisdom was do not bend over at the waist and reach down for the snow. The boards had notches in the tails and the boots looked like something out of LL Bean. We've come a long way, but this one nugget of advice is still relevant today. Beginner or intermediate carvers whose primary goal is to "get low" or "touch the snow" will most likely teach themselves the bad habit of bending over at the waist. They will need to unlearn it later in order to progress past intermediate ability, and this will be more difficult than avoiding this problem from the start. I saw this youtube in the videos forum and had to point this out. The guy in the full black-and-white patterned outfit is a prime example of what happens when a beginner carver tries to touch the snow, above all else. 0:52 and other places. I would recommend to him and anyone else at this stage to stand up, bend the knees, keep the shoulders level to the hill, keep the head upright, move to gentler slopes, and learn to absorb terrain and manipulate the board and its energy with the knees and ankles. In time, the ground will come up to meet your hand, hip, thigh, armpit, etc, without you even trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Tat Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I like to refer to that kind of "butt to the sky" toeside turn as doggie style carving. There is some nice turns elsewhere on the video. Actually one of the things I've noticed from both those videos and the Russian carving school video (i can't recall the name) was how far forward (towards the board's nose) the upper body is shifted in an EC turn while the carver's body is laid on the snow. Essentially the carver is breaking at the waist to transfer weight forward onto the nose of he board, not breaking at the waist for the purpose of touching the snow. This is something I am going to have to think about during this season, as I think it will really help my heelside ECs. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Even in powder it's still one of the phrases you'll hear most - lots of people reach for the snow. I think it's like skiers who used to force their knees together: a confusion of cause and effect. That said, a lot of Euro carving looks kind of forced to me in that they are diving down there for style not performance reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Yep. Definitely a bone of contention of the styles and techniques. I would note I fall into the older style "Toes to the Nose" form. Rode during the time that guys like Jacoby, Carroll ruled the alpine roost. The catch 22 is the EC styles tend to "draw in" new riders. The reality is it is not the place to start, especially if you do not have ideal conditions availabale often. I think when the subject has been brought up in the past a good example was the track motorcycle riders. DO NOT think about putting your knee on the pavement. Ride well, ride fast and let it come to YOU!! Point: As Jack as aptly state, don't reach. Focus on your riding technique , it will happen. For the newbies that so desperately want to get on the snow surface. Know this. Conditions are key. The films you see are typically under very good conditions on steep, wide terrain. Do you have those features? Doing EC on a flat, rough, inconsistant, icy surface is a risky trick. Again. "Don't pat the dog" means. Don't touch the snow!! Don't break at the waist. (true of good slalom water skiing too) Let the fight begin:angryfire Lots of video listed here: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=FINELINECLUB#g/c/8750972D607DF382 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.a Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 The amount of will power you got to have in order to not reach for the snow is colossal. I know. I'm an intermediate carver and still do it although I try hard not to. I'd also say you ruin a lot of gloves and pants VERY fast since you use your hands and hips to nudge you off the snow when you start to fall over, which inevitably happens a lot since your COM is so far off. I picked up this technique in addition to the classic grabbing the but cuff is to practice what I could call "hand sweeping" where you point your arm out in front of you and then you "sweep" it smoothly to where you wanna turn while using your ankles and knees, then when making the turn have your continue to turn and go up up up up up. I think I saw some pros practicing like this. Helps practice facing the way of travel as well as keeping the shoulders level to the slope. Have to say it looks like Im dancing like a ballerina but it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Tat Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 ...looks kind of forced to me in that they are diving down there for style not performance reasons. <cough> kind of like European footballers diving in that regard?:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoffmac11 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I would recommend to him and anyone else at this stage to stand up, bend the knees, keep the shoulders level to the hill, keep the head upright, move to gentler slopes, and learn to absorb terrain and manipulate the board and its energy with the knees and ankles. In time, the ground will come up to meet your hand, hip, thigh, armpit, etc, without you even trying.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________ what do i do about my weight?? like were do i shift it when im turning? in skiing, you learn forward, is it the same with alpine boarding? or do you try to stay as upright as you can with of course bending your knees a little? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 what do i do about my weight?? like were do i shift it when im turning? in skiing, you learn forward, is it the same with alpine boarding? or do you try to stay as upright as you can with of course bending your knees a little? You want to bend your knees for sure. Leaning forward at the waist is ok, but you don't want to overdo it; you shouldn't be completely piked over. Bending over at the waist off to the side of your board is a different thing. That puts you in an unbalanced position. More on this here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoffmac11 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 gotcha..that article was pretty good..basically you want to bend your knees, and stay as straight as possible from the waist up..with a little forward lean, and have your shoulders squared with the nose of the board, or your bindings..now all we need is some snow so i can learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 .... stand up, bend the knees, keep the shoulders level to the hill, keep the head upright, move to gentler slopes, and learn to absorb terrain and manipulate the board and its energy with the knees and ankles. In time, the ground will come up to meet your hand, hip, thigh, armpit, etc, without you even trying. Did exactly as Jack said this Southern Hemisphere winter. After blasting down the groomed slopes in the morning till they were lumpy and cut up, I hit the beginner to intermediate slopes in the afternoon and concentrated on slow, balanced carves on both toe and heelside. Nothing spectacular, just aiming to leave long, fine, fully controlled, lines in the snow. I'd been using a Contour helmet camera to make some reminders of a great trip, and trying to get shots that don't need lots of Deshaker treatment is great for keeping my upper body and head level with the slope. Watching the video at night is very revealing feedback on just how well (or poorly) you did. To keep my hands forward and level, not reaching for the snow, I'd imagine I was carrying a tray with full cups on it as well. For toeside turns I found I needed to emphasise pressure onto the carving edge with my front knee, for heelside turns with my rear knee, but that this produced even, equally powerful, unskidded turns on either side. The only way then to get the board substantially up on edge with the upper body upright is angulation upwards at the waist (not patting the dog!). I ride regular stance but I assume this knee pressure would be the same for a goofy stance as well. Before long the snow was coming up to meet me. I could carve tighter turns, only rarely skidding or losing my balance, than I'd ever done before. SunSurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 For me, deep toeside carving without touching the snow (putting my hands at the back) or bending at the waist is super fun. Oh, and trying to bend the snowboard as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Day Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 So, let me ask a question. I am an intermediate, dare I say advanced, rider that still has a tendency to break at the waist. What could be some suggestions for a fix for me? It seems to me that I break at the waist during my initial toe/front side turn. Almost as if I am trying to turn before the board is up to speed and ready to turn. Like I'm preventing myself from tipping over. Any help for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vahur Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Good point. Digged in archives and found similar discussion about 2.5 years ago in EC forum: http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5564 So this style gets frowned upon in EC circles as well, not only in bomber forums :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Jeffrey, I'm not quite sure I know exactly what you're describing, but I feel like I'm in the same boat as you progression-wise (intermediate). I feel like I do this "prebending" too. Here's what I think, and please, anyone correct me if I'm wrong: I think it's a speed issue. We are trying to make an aggressive turn without the requisite speed, which causes balance issues. I'm not sure if it's a sidecut, trail selection, or technique issue, or a combination of the three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 For me any, I like to think of starting the toe side turn with the feet, then the knees, and finally the toe side hip. At first this dropping the toe side hip feels awkward, and seems easier with some counter rotation at the waist. Later the counter rotation can be removed, but still keeping the same movements from the hip down. http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/image.php?u=340&dateline=1204030712&type=profile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Tat Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 For me any, I like to think of starting the toe side turn with the feet, then the knees, and finally the toe side hip. At first this dropping the toe side hip feels awkward, and seems easier with some counter rotation at the waist. Later the counter rotation can be removed, but still keeping the same movements from the hip down. http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/image.php?u=340&dateline=1204030712&type=profile I like how you have described movement starting from the toes up, and that is what it feels like for me when i am doing race, g, compression carves. But for toeside ECs I enter the turn crunched up, I then bring the board up on edge with my body over the board, and then dive (extend) downslope and towards the nose of the board rotating my upper body into the turn. I don't feel any G's or very little in an EC turn and am pretty extended at the point in the turn where you are compressed. I love this feeling of extending downslope off of the board and into the turn. I think without enough speed, or tight enough turn radius, a person trying to angulate beyond what is possible has to end up breaking at the waist and sticking their butt out the other side of the board as a counter weight for balance? The danger is that it becomes habit, and screws your carves when you do have the speed or turn radius to move effectively. Again I'm pretty intermediate as carvers go. So my analysis could be flawed. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I see/think that real key of efficient EC-turn is same as on efficient race turn, doing stuff during first half of turn when slope is helping you and not fighting against you. But at leat for me, fluent EC-technic is 30% making turns laying down but rest 70% is what and how rider acts between turns. For me there are some masters like J&P from Swoard and Ray&Ben from Russian Swoard team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 So, let me ask a question. I am an intermediate, dare I say advanced, rider that still has a tendency to break at the waist. What could be some suggestions for a fix for me? It seems to me that I break at the waist during my initial toe/front side turn. Almost as if I am trying to turn before the board is up to speed and ready to turn. Like I'm preventing myself from tipping over. I'm far from a pro, but I struggled with this same problem. What worked for me: 1. Think more about pushing the board's sidewall into the snow. This is hard to do when you're bent over away from the edge. If you're stacked up over the edge with it angled up, it'll bite hard even on crappy snow. This is the first drill I go back to when I'm having a bad day. 2. Think of the snow as being hot lava - you don't want to touch it no matter what. You actually try to keep your upper body as far away as possible. This reinforces Step 1 above. 3. Drop your hips into the turn & try to pinch your ribcage onto your hips on the outside of the turn. You end up with your shoulders close to parallel to the snow. I'm getting pretty good at not reaching for the snow - until something goes wrong (ice, running out of room before trees, etc.). Then the board just stops turning, which is generally a very bad thing in those situations. It's a bad habit from my early days that still pops up every now and then if I panic. But sometimes you're just not going fast enough to turn the way you want. You learn to turn tighter with less speed as you get better, but there are limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted October 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I suspect brother Jeffrey is up to something here... I have ridden with him several times and he is a lot better than he wants to believe. He's an expert but he won't admit it. Corey gives good advice, I would just add to say think about the order in which your body parts cross the board, and that it should go from the ground up - ankles, knees, hips, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valsam Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I think that everyone who is into Extreme euro carving breaks at the waist more or less,without doing so there is no so called "leap of faith" for getting in full laid contact position with the snow! Somebody correct me if I'm wrong please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 There's no such thing as leap of faith... The key is to bend the knees as much as possible while keeping the upper body straight... Hence the emphasis on softening the boots... I recon a good exercise is to focus on bending the board as much as possible by pressuring the nose hard during turn initiation in addition to cranking up the edge and trying to keep the form... But I'm also intermediate, don't know much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Day Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I suspect brother Jeffrey is up to something here... I have ridden with him several times and he is a lot better than he wants to believe. He's an expert but he won't admit it. Sorry Brother Jack, no hidden agenda here. Yes, I may be a better rider than I give myself credit for...and I've come to accept the term "advanced" to describe my riding abilities. But I feel I am not as good as Jack and the Sunapee riding crew. But I digress. I have a picture of me that illustrates my issue with my riding! It's an ugly picture! I think NickG might be on the right track. "Pre-bending" possibly due to lack of initial speed! And possibly a lack of confidence of the trails condition. I have a difficult time dealing with spring loose/frozen granular type conditions. Angulating the board up to very high...angles and then the ensuing acceleration! Basically, I guess, confidence! Any of this make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 It seems to me that I break at the waist during my initial toe/front side turn. Almost as if I am trying to turn before the board is up to speed and ready to turn. In a low momentum context, a rider will do this for three primary reasons: -Security on the heelside edge is obtained by committing too much mass to that edge. This mass has too far to travel 'across' the board to be effective in the required time frame, so other options are used to start the toeside turn. -Free articulation of the feet, and to some extent,the knees, has been partially impaired, so the 'safest' move is again, from the top. - A mistaken attempt to emulate the obvious visual manifestations of supposedly better riders. In effect, the first two accomplish this: I'm preventing myself from tipping over.When you move a bit faster, additional momentum spackles the 'hard spots'.Confidence and dexterity are dependent on 'solid footing'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmut Karvlow Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hey Jack, in your avatar pic. you are bent at the waist and pat'n the old dog right on the head..............how do I say it????? oh yea, ACKNO!!!:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 haha, not really. :D shoulders are still above the hips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.