Hard - Moguls, the Final Frontier?

[RCrobar]

I am looking for highly biased opinions to the following question. I would like to hear what works for you and why you think it does.

If you had to ride with guys skiing in VW beetle sized moguls all day, on a very steep HARD pitch, what board: length, shape, flex, sidecut, etc. would/do you prefer?

I asked Sean, Chris and Bruce, the North American 'Big Three' board builders the same question basic question.

Have you ever designed a board specifically for moguls? If you had to ride with guys skiing in VW beetle sized moguls all day, on a steep hard pitch, what size, shape, flex would you recommend?

Here is what they had to say, as always they were very generous and gracious with their time. Very interesting and confusing answers, hence my post.

Here are some general comments from the 'Big Three' (Summary)

None of the carving communities 'Big Three' board manufacturers said they have ever built a mogul specific board. All 3 builders basically said that very few people spend much time in the these types of moguls and is basically no demand for such a board. Moguls, they said, are physically very demanding, are harder to do on a board when compare to skis, they require very good technique and are a serious challenge as a result.

Here are specific comments on board design from the 'Big Three' (Quotes)

(I have purposely not stated which builder made which comment to avoid brand loyalty entering into peoples' biased opinions:)

Builder A

I think a good sl board rounded tail (standard all mountain shape) appropriate waist to suit the riders angles, and a lot of practice. A standard all mountain style board or small slalom board that is light I think will work better 161 cm in length 9.5 meter radius. Perhaps a wide waist 22-23 cm. Very sharp edges, and lots of strength!

Builder B

The only board I've ridden in bumps that really seemed to navigate the bumps like a pair of skis was a longer 180 ish standard all mountain shaped board. When riding in bumps I find a standard 160 freeride to be a lot of work because you have to be involved so much with maneuvering the board. A longer 180 ish standard all mountain shape seemed almost to steer itself through the bumps.

Builder C

My thinking would be that anything long is going to get hung up somewhat especially if it had a racy flex as the mid sections of those boards are stiffer and transmit the power out to the ends of the board too much. Something pretty flexy in the middle would allow it to conform more to the nasty terrain. Torsional stiffness I would think should be pretty low to allow more freedom without getting stuck in a turn. If you incorporated those designs a longer board would be more manageable for sure.

Thanks in Advance

Rob

[Jon Dahl]

I used a med. soft flex 167 freecarve Airwalk (made by Nitro, I think) w/ SB224's in walk mode using Snowpro stepins. Was able to navigate well and jump between the bumps at times. Can't ride my 173 Renntiger in bumps to save my life. I would like to try the new Donek 161(?) Axis in the bumps, I think it may be the tool!

[boostertwo]

I like a med flex slalom board for quick maneuverability, but can see that a longer (tho' softer) board might give a caddy-esque ride in smaller, less-steep, 'harbor chop' type bumps.

IMO, stiff long race boards aren't the tool for big, steep bumps, where you have to make quick, accurate turns between tightly spaced bumps.

I do think that lower stance angles (on a slightly wider board) help as well, as they allow for a bigger range of movement of the femur and lower legs and recruit stronger muscle groups (more quads, gleuts, and hamstrings vs. abductors and adductors) to make the quick, big, powerful steering moves necessary in the bumps.

<img src="http://tinypic.com/veuzb">

I also like soft, powdery exploda-bumps (the ones that give when you hit them), rather than rock hard, ice-blue bumps--but that's probably just my own mental illness.

Cheers,

B-2

[philw]

I've found a 163 SL board works well for me: obviously you need something which flexes reasonably in that sort of usage. I think picking your type and condition of moguls helps a great deal, more even than with skiing. Big nasty icy bumps are trickier on a board than on skis if only because you don't have the independent leg action thing available to you, or poles.

I wouldn't buy a "mogul specific" board, but I do expect my piste board to be able to handle piste, which generally has bumps on it here and there.

Actually I thought that this was one of the things which sets hard-booters apart: it's straightforward to ride moguls.

[Guest bendit]

I find that my "seasoned" 4x4 or fc boards between 59-69 work best for me because of the softer flex. Try checking your base bevel,or lowering your edge angles to avoid "hooking-up" to allow for smoother edge changes. And for air, point it tward one to air a couple (as long as they're not too icy).

A good drill to do on a steep groomed run is to carve from one edge and "hop" to the the other, but land in a skid instead of a carve. This forces you to become more dynamic by pulling your legs up in the air to make the edge change and then land on a "skidding" edge to help keep your momentum moving down the fall line instead of shooting across the bumps and getting "launched". This skill comes in handy in medium to large bumps and when "airing" from bump to bump-fun,fun,fun.

Cheers!

[sic t 2]

There are two styles through hard, steep, cutup-and-edged, icey moguls on a board: the traditional skier line and the snowboarder line. So I think the answer you get from anyone depends upon which style they have in their head the moment you ask them. And, of course, this is mostly imaginary since serious moguls are generally avoided at all times by almost all boaders.

The "skier line" requires godlike skills and no special explanation here: you do what high end mogul skiers do. Shoulders squared up to the fall line, tip pointed downhill at all times with edges popping off the extreme left or right edges of a given arrangement of moguls as you traverse a DEAD STRAIGHT LINE downhill. I have seen it done once or twice over 9 years of boarding by an alpine rider and can still picture the guys run in my mind right now. Its that rare. Equipment? Longish, softish nose, big base bevels, lesser sidecut, the steeper the binding angle (more ski-like the better) is what I observed. The physical conditioning required? Truly only the turf of real supermen.

The "snowboader line" is to find those "other" lines that skiers can't see: carve across the tops. Basically what you see when you look downhill is a series of disconnected bunny slopes (the tops of the death moguls). Your job is to just connect the dots as you look downhill and just survive the transition between them. The equipment? shortish, stiff nose, low base bevels, no detuning, lots of sidecut and super, super sharp edges to allow you get the nose to carve UP the side of a mogul and get you onto its top and out of harms way. Physical conditioning required? Nothing special.

So best board? Probably the one that compliments style #2.

Of course there is the 3rd style: the "I hate this place and now I remember why I never come here anymore". That's pretty much the style I see all the time in the moguls.

sic

[Strider]

AS a former skier who spent most of the day in the moguls, I decided that I was going to get good at the moguls on my board since no one said it could be done. I started out on a total freestyle setup(Burtoim Custom Air, Airwalk boots) and learned some technique. Now I ride hardboots for everything. I don't find the boots to be a limiting factor, but the board definitely makes a difference. I use a 165 Atomic Don as my all mountain board and it does great. Both my slalom board and GS board do not work very well. Its not so much the stiffness of the board as the flex pattern that I find wrong. It is defnitely nice to have a soft tip and tail and an overall even flex. I also find that the longer boards do get "hung up" between moguls, especially if they are lVW sized. This is bad for the same reason you don't take race skis in the moguls...you don't want to bend them.

To qualify this...I love to ride the moguls, and spend a lot of time in them. Especially on our annual guys only trip to Copper where I'm the only boarder in the group and everyone has 40+ years on skis. I spend the whole day following them through the mogul fields and steepsd and they are still trying to find a place where they can lose me. Its especially fun when we get a pow day and then the skiers can't keep up. The biggest thing to riding moguls is practice, practice, practice. Once you get the technique down, you can ride a nice weaving line, or take the zipper route the skiers do. Just be sure that if you get bounced out of your line you have enough flexion, and balance to pick it right up in the new line.

[Jack M]

The best time I've ever had in bumps was had on a Donek 171fcII. I think the wider waist (19.5cm) and resulting lower angles help with maneuverability. For me I think 171 is the perfect bump length. I agree that a short SL deck would be more work, but I did <b>not</b> enjoy my 186 in the bumps.

I've never tried an all-mountain carver, maybe that would be more of a good thing?

[Mike T]

Do we get to guess who said what :)

I've tried taking my FC 163 through bumps, as well as my Axis 172, and my answer is:

Freeride board with softies. (Donek Wide 161 in my case)

I haven't gotten the feel for bumps on plates yet. I wind up carrying too much speed and having to stop too much. On softies I can keep my speed down and keep a good rhythm.

Maybe this season I'll be able to work on it a bit.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I love bumps, and I like to think I'm good at them. I beat most skiers down them, although I can't keep up with a hot mogul skier taking the zipper line. I ride a pretty straight line, much the same as I did on skis. All my experience is in the west in soft snow - if they're real icy (like refrozen on a spring morning) I stay clear, but if they're just glazed I'm OK.

I haven't had a lot of boards - I've ridden hard boots on a Gnu Race Room 179, a Burton Asym Air 164 and an older Prior 4WD 165.

It took some adjustment when I switched from the Burton to the Prior as my main ride but I like it the best in most conditions. The narrower board lets me get edge to edge quicker and be squarer to the hill, and at the same time lets me have a shallow enough stance angle to really swing it back and forth. The medium-stiff flex works well, too. I speculate that a narrower stiff race board would be doable but not even close to ideal. Too stiff and it couldn't flex through the troughs, too narrow and not enough leverage for the quick turns and jumps - same reason slalom racers like wider boards, I suspect.

If the bumps are big and powdery, the Burton works better. If they're small, spaced out with lots of powder I can pretty much ignore them on the Gnu, IIRC (it's retired now).

Bruce is building my new board as we speak, and I asked for an AM172 in the 21.5 width. He's got my love of bumps noted, and is going with his standard construction for my weight. Hopefully I'll get a chance to get into some nice bumps with it and let you know how it works. I'll also be taking my Tanker 200 into the bumps just for grins - I suspect it will be too much work in real bumps, but if I find a nicely spaced set on a steepish blue, it will be a hoot.

[Guest AlpentalRider]

I always ride my stiff freeride board with softies in the bumps and have no problems. Have yet to try it on my Burton Speed, but this may be the year to give it a shot.

As far as the board flex is concerned, I agree with all the comments above. You need a medium flex board that is willing to absorb and form to the extreme angle changes you encounter when going through them.

I usually take one of two lines on a board, either trough to trough, or peak to peak. I kinda prefer trough to trough because you can really control your speed by using the uphill slope of the mogel in the trough to bleed speed if necessary

[bumpyride]

Bumpy ride, that's where the name came from.

Myself and my son basically only board in the Bumps and Steeps and Chutes. That's where we have the most fun, and spend every available minute. Been doing it for 8 years.

Here's what I found: The shorter, the lighter, the medium stiffer, the happier to get in the air, the better.

I'm 150 and have settled into the Burton Ultraprime 157's. The board just screams "Beam me up Scotty". It's stiff enough to set an edge on all but bare ice, light enough to go where you're thinking and not muscling, and rebounds and lifts off like a jumping bean on a hot plate.

I've tried stiffer boards and they just want to stay on the snow, which is disasterous in bumps, and they don't want to absorb. Longer boards have too heavy of swing weights, so there is a lag time you can't afford. Wide boards, too much time to go edge to edge, not to mention the extra leverage that a wider board exerts on impact.

Having said that, the 157 Ultraprime ain't very good for carving groomers that are hard.

Next point for all of this is bindings. If you're rattling down a bumpy road in a race car, the ride "ain't so gud". You need a decent shock to suck up the impact, or more accurately get the wheels down back on the road. Stiff bindings are transmitters in the bumps. I found that you need something flexy to not telegraph everything to the ankles and above. I'm using Burton Carriers, and so is my son, and works perfectly for this usage. On a full blown carving board they're waaaay too loose.

Oh here's another point. I tape my boots into the "Walk Mode". This is the other part of the Shock Absorption mode. If you're sucking in the bumps with your knees, your boots have to be able to flex. You need the fore and aft motion for absorption and extension. You can't do it from the knees up to the waist. It has to come from the ankles up to the waist.

This is way closer to skiing without crutches than boarding.

Some say I'm really good at this, and others say I'm really handsome, but I can only guarantee you that at least one of these is an out and out lie-maybe both

Hmmmmm! Why is it "ABSORB and then it's ABSOR-P-TION"

Successfully done Boarding the Bumps looks an awful lot like Skiing the Bumps. Shoulders perpendicular to the fall line. Steady upper body, and rubber bands for ankles knees and thighs.

Now I realize that Successfully done is an opinion, but it seems to be the only way that I've ever been able to navigate the bump runs with any aplomb.

None of my gear is probably the best. It sure does work for me. I haven't tried all the gear that is out there, but when something works, you don't always need to mess with it. You're better off enjoying what you havel.

Questions? I would be available for pillorying, if one would care to engage in dialogue.

[Tommy D]

I've had a lot of years skiing in the bumps, and love taking a smooth zipper down. As a result, when confronted with bumps on my Volkl 163 SL, I attacked them much the same way. This worked for me, mostly because everything else I tried failed, and I was in survival mode (My natural skiing instinct took over.) But once I squared my shoulders to the fall line and got low to allow my legs the greatest extension possible, I did fine, and felt good doing it.

IMO, the 163 is a good length, but I can't imagine taking anything longer into the bumps. Certainly a board of that length witha softer flex would be a great benefit in the bumps. But not too soft; a little snap helps every now and again. A round tail might help a bit too, but as long as you don't go switch, it isn't too much of a problem.

[Miguel]

Last Spring I wound up riding with my brother and his buds at Killington...all expert skiers. On that day the entire mountain was bumped up so I either rode the bumps or went home humiliated. Oh yeah...did I mention my brother regards all boarders with complete and utter disdain. Of course I was riding with my Tshirt which proudly proclaims..."A day without snowboarding is like a day on skiis"...that always gets him going. :) But I digress. Anyway, I fortunately had brought my Doneck Incline in addition to my freecarve. Long story short, I wound up falling in love with the bumps that day. I felt the 164 Incline was ideal in the bumps. I never could keep up with the skiers that day but steadily improved as the day went on. In fact, the next day the wives/girlfriends joined us and I found myself getting to the bottom of the run usually in the middle of the pack. I rode pretty shallow angles in hard boots...about 35f/30r which I believe helps. I later rode my 171 Freecarve in the bumps and found it to be far less manageable. Personally I feel the Incline is a great bord for bumps and I look forward to honing my skills a bit more this year. It's quite a different challenge on a board...very focused and reactionary with split second decisions being made with every turn. It's a hoot! PS...this year's goal is to be waiting for my Bro at the bottom! PSS...my favorite quote of his while running the groomers..."Doesn't that G-damned thing go any slower than that!" Gotta love it. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Tommy D

IMO, the 163 is a good length, but I can't imagine taking anything longer into the bumps.

My Prior was 165, but with a straight tail. I went a little longer on the Coiler 172 as the tail has some kick and I didn't want to give up any edge, plus I wanted some groomer performance. I don't expect the extra 7 cm will be that much of a hindrance.

[willywhit]

VW sized moguls ? steep, hard pitch ? That I'd like to see. White Heat at Sunday River or what's that one at Bear Peak,Killington? Sounds like a trip to see Dr Kneebrace. Shallow, fat bumps on not so steep trails (hero bumps) are fun just hopping through the bunny field and smacking the tops off. There's a few guys at Keystone that really rock the bumps, anyone know Jonas from Denver? I ride an Avalanche Tom Burt 166 for that stuff. We did 4 consecutive bump runs at Sunday River last Sunday late afternoon and my legs were smoked. ...huffing and puffing like an old man.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by willywhit

VW sized moguls ? steep, hard pitch ? That I'd like to see. White Heat at Sunday River or what's that one at Bear Peak,Killington?

Do you ever get honest-to-god VW sized moguls there? I've heard that term over and over but never seen them in the west. Who's ridden east and west? Shred, I know you've been to Banff - have you seen White Heat to compare it to say Paradise at Louise?

[Mike T]

West - Gunbarrel at Heavenly. In my softbooting days in Tahoe I used to love doing that run at the end of the day in spring.

East - WAYYYYY back from my skiing the east coast days, I remember pretty big moguls on Outer Limits at Killington. I was only 13 so they might have looked bigger then though

[kipstar]

I have tried the skier line, then also tried the various more carvy lines, and finally had a really good swiss boarding race coach in the mid 90s, who clued me into the most fun line.

LIke bumpy ride, I love the steeps and the bumps. For me, I found that the easiest ride is a board with a big sidecut; since handling bumps you can't really rely on the nose to carry you over steep sided bumps, a short nose is not so important, but reasonably soft nose is.

Two boards I liked a lot in bumps - the nitro scorpion 155 and the nitro epics.

I take a slightly different line; carving hard around through the troughs mostly, using extreme rotation to ensure continuous carving. Steep sides of the bumps can often be sucked up using a turn with sucking up the knees (I can't remember the technical name of this type of turn) and the aim is to carve turns, no skids, without picking up too much speed, nor skidding out, and a few jumps on the way.

This means a slalom sidecut. Incidentally, I ride in ski boots, and using a decent body rotation as taught by the swiss, no problems with chattering out. But man, can't handle too many runs like this without wearing myself out!

THe key is to do a lot of time in the bumps, and you can get better. It also seems to make riding elsewhere better as well. I love it!

Kip

[NateW]

I ride pretty much everything but bumps are the domain were I felt the board design would help or hurt the most, so that was the main thing I had in mind when I picked the parameters for my last tree boards.

I asked Bruce @ Coiler which of his molds could make a board with a nose that comes up 5cm, like a regular freeride board (like my freeride boards anyhow) because I'm not comfortable with the idea of using a shorter alpine-style nose in bumps. His answer was the AM169 mold, which yields a 174 after the nose has been extended to 5cm tall and the tail to 3cm tall. I've been really happy with that, but I have to admit I sometimes wonder if a shorter nose would really be a problem. It could all be in my head.

Anyow, I have two "AM174" boards now, one with a 21cm waist and one with a 17cm waist. I have been riding the wider board for about 3 seasons and enjoying it a lot. The narrower one arrived just this week, and I'm looking forward to finding out if (much) higher stance angles make bumps easier. I also have a 19cm board under construction (from http://www.happymonkeysnowboards.com/) so by the of this season I should have a pretty clear idea of what waist width I really want in bumps (and everywhere else, for that matter).

I'm also going to try running the 17cm board with some toe-heel overhang and see how that works. I won't be able to carve deep on it but that board is basically intended for one mountain (Alpental) which has far more bump than groom. I can see the overhang being a real asset on that mountain, it wears my legs out faster than any other place I ride.

[jason_watkins]

NateW: what's your stiffness index? I just got a AM169 20cm wide, 7.2 index, so if we end up at the same mountain sometime this season and the stiffnesses are close, we could make a reasonible comparison.

Actually, I thought about getting your template, but after chatting with a couple people it seemed that the normal 169 would work fine for me.

[Guest jeremiah]

I don't consider myself an expert in the bumps, but I've reached the point where I can knock my way through almost any bump run. I really enjoy Bear Down (I think that's the one) at Stratton, but it's got nice tight skier lines, which tend to force me to keep it going, rather than some of the sloppier runs where I have to change my line every 5 bumps. (An example of this is Ripcord at Mt. Snow, I've never been able to do a non-stop on that one, but I've never seen a skier do it either.)

I find that as long as the bumps aren't bullerproof, I do well with an old all-mountain board (K2 Zep 163) and soft-boots. I keep my angles around 30/24 and attack it like I did on skis. Pick the line, square the body, and bang the tail off the face to keep the speed in check.

I've tried it on my carving gear (old K2 ginsu for early/late season, Axis 177 for the rest of the season) and I'm just not as comfortable. The Ginsu just seems to bounce around, and the Axis is too long. On hero bumps I feel pretty confident on the Axis, but I generally stick to the side and do modified jump turns rather than carving on gnarly bumps. I'll hopefully pick up an Incline this year for my bumps board, which should give me better edge hold on icy bumps but still flex enough for me to keep the edges on the snow for the majority of the run.

I've seen big bumps both west and east, with the biggest probably being The Face as Schweitzer. The best, most regular bump run I've seen is probably Thunder at Lost Trail. I haven't been there in 20 years, but I was awestruck by the guys doing top-to-bottom tele turns in the mid-80s.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Tele guys in bumps just blow my mind. That looks like a lot of work, not to mention skill. I love watching them.

[NateW]

The old (wide) one was 8.3 when it was made, but is probably a lot softer now, there's no camber left. The new (skinny) one is 8.5, I asked Bruce to turn up the stiffness a little. 0.2 doesn't seem like much of an increase but then again I haven't ridden it yet.

I prefer stiffer over softer, at least so far... maybe I haven't ridden something stiff enough to know at what point it becomes a drawback. With a stiffer board I have

more to lean against if my balance gets a little off.

[jason_watkins]

Interesting... well, in any case, it may be quite a bit of fun for us to try eachothers boards at some point. I'm fairly lightweight at 150lbs, so I think our stiffness to weight ratio is likely about the same.