Hard - Moguls, the Final Frontier?

[RCrobar]

Gentleman

Thank you for your great responses, some very interesting thoughts.

50% technique, 50% equipment and 50% conditioning and hard moguls are no problem :)

I would like to throw out a few more thoughts on board characteristics that may or may not help in hard, tight moguls.

Biased opinions are appreciated and encouraged!

Tail taper

Should there be lots or none or does it matter?

2mm on a slalom board, 10 mm on a Swallow tail. Will more taper make it easier to get out of a tight turn and into the next one. The idea being that you are hopping, ‘skid carving,’ setting an edge, then doing a short carve... repeat.

Side Cut Depth

I’ve read several times Kent’s feeling that a shorter board with a larger radius creates less of an hour glass shape, which in turn means the board doesn’t have to bend as much to engage the edge, which also makes it easier to ‘skid carve.’ Could this be an advantage in the moguls?

Neil

I would love to hear your comments on the differences between the 165 Prior with the square tail and the 172 Coiler with the rounded tail. I’m curios about swing weight and whether or not you notice a difference with the tail feeling ‘catchy.’ Maybe a good base bevel will make all the difference on a square tail.

Nate

Could you tell me more about the lower nose vs the higher nose. How does the higher nose behave in the bumps when compared to an All Mountain nose?

Bumpyride

I too ride my boots in the walk mode. After having the damn lever constantly flipping up and locking while riding, or having to deal with duck tape, I made a little mod that I have been happy with. I used a Dremmel tool and a cutting wheel to remove the material between positions 1 and 4 (I left #5 alone), creating a long slot from position 1 - 4. With the lever in the locked position I get walk mode movement. I now have a free range of motion from 1 - 4, but can still lock the boots in position 5. Easy mod and a cheap to fix if you don’t like it.

Thanks

Rob

[bumpyride]

Here's another thought. I'm not quite so sure that the technical aspects of a board (sidecut, radius) are quite as relevant if the turns are performed off the snow. A little air goes a long way to reduce the friction during a turn, consequently a board that likes to go up as much as across would be an asset for a person that wants to board the bumps without relying solely on carving. Ya be a whole lot faster down the fall line popping across the bumps.

Aside from setting an edge, carving (such as laying down a carve), may result in becoming a member of the Vienna Boys Choir. I believe this may have a windfall to it, as Michael Jackson may for the first time be attracted to an adult male, and he may reward you with buying you your own bump run.

Shorter boards also help in reducing swing weight and time needed to bring the board around (or just a lighter board).

[Enzo]

Originally posted by RCrobar

Tail taper

Should there be lots or none or does it matter?

2mm on a slalom board, 10 mm on a Swallow tail. Will more taper make it easier to get out of a tight turn and into the next one. The idea being that you are hopping, ‘skid carving,’ setting an edge, then doing a short carve... repeat...

I've never taken my alpine setup in full fledged VW sized moguls, but as Tommy D also mentioned, I really like the Volkl RT 163 SL for bumped conditions. The board has a short ~9m sidecut for quick cuts, its short length makes it very maneuverable, and the 5mm of taper avoids you getting hooked into a turn. I just square up my shoulders and envision the great Alberto Tomba barrelling down a slalom course. :p

OT: Rob,

Just out of curiousity, what are the specs (length, width, sidecut, taper) of the board you were riding in your video from last spring with the Soul Coughing song? BTW, it's a great vid...I have it saved on my HD!!

[RCrobar]

Hi Enzo

The board I ride almost all the time, the one in the video, is a Swoard 175 Hard flex. It is 23.1 at the waist, has a 13.3M sidecut radius and 156 cm of effective edge and 0 mm of taper.

Thanks for the kind words, but I gotta tell you I made that video to send to the EC guys to ask for advice on improving my technique. I was/am more than a little embarrassed to see it pop up in the EC forum. All I see is mistakes when I watch it now!

Because the stance is exactly centered and the nose and tail are so symmetrical, combined with relatively low stance angles, it is quite easy to jump and swing around in the air. I guess it has a balanced swing weight. It is excellent in the softer hero moguls and space trees that I see out West, similar to what Neil described. Snow conditions where you can simply blast though the crud or the snow forms to the shape of our board. I find it too much when the conditions are tight and hard.

The idea for this thread is to fill the gap between my Swoard 175 and 185 Swallowtail.

Rob

[NateW]

I am (was?) concerned that a low alpine-style nose would auger into snow features that a taller freeride-like nose would just ride over. I haven't yet tried anything shorter so I can't say for sure if this is true.

My next board will have a 4cm nose, about the same as Coiler's normal AM. I have a hunch that it will work just as well, but I'll know for sure after I ride it some.

Before, I was buying my sole board so I wanted to be certain that it would ride well... But now I have a couple of other boards if I don't like the way the newest one rides in moguls... If 4cm works, then maybe next time I'll go down to 3cm. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

I’m curios about swing weight and whether or not you notice a difference with the tail feeling ‘catchy.’

I don't think swing weight is an issue. I've never found the tail on the Prior to be too catchy. I had that issue sometimes with my old Gnu but it was 15 cm longer.

A little air goes a long way to reduce the friction during a turn

You've got to be comfortable being in the air a little, it's a bread and butter technique in the bumps. I think a pure carved run in big bumps is a pretty tough (impossible?) goal. You've got to let a bump launch you once in a while. Not only that, sometimes you just have to jump using brute force, especially in dicey conditions (rocks, tree stumps). I think light weight is helpful there.

[willywhit]

OT: Rob,

Just out of curiousity, what are the specs (length, width, sidecut, taper) of the board you were riding in your video from last spring with the Soul Coughing song? BTW, it's a great vid...I have it saved on my HD!! [/b]

That was a cool video, can you post again ? I rode Sean's Donek Axis at ECES and I bet that board would rock in the bumps. The board has such a skatey feel. Stiff and snappy. I think Bob Jenney owns one too. What was the length on that Axis ? Super fun board!

[Guest rick ferguson]

I'd rather carve , than skid! The more of you going to mogul's , means more cord for me! Please go to the bumps, there cool! Stay off the groomer's, they are for the kooks anyway's -right? Bomber online has changed it's name to "bumps online" That's ripp'in!!!!!:D

[RCrobar]

Hi Rick

I understand where you are coming from, my question/post is a perhaps a bit misleading. I think have a similar attitude, as you do, towards carving.

I wish I could ski moguls, unfortunately I have zero ski background; my roots are skateboard vert. riding. I agree with you, skis are beautiful to watch and better in the moguls. I don’t have the skills to ride skis in the bumps. I admire guys who can ride both skies and boards with skill, I'm an old dog who only boards.

Riding moguls has to do with some of the resorts I visit from time to time, it seems like the a lot of the terrain is covered with moguls. If you want to ride the whole mountain you need to be able to ride bumps as well as the cord or you are limited where you can ride.

I personally have never really seen any difference between freeriding, freecarving, bumps etc., to me it is one in the same. The goal is to be able to ride smoothly (carving or skidding) everywhere in all conditions.

A close friend of mine was an alternate for the Canadian Olympic Freestyle team in the 80’s, watching him in the bumps was part of my inspiration for this thread. Saw him pull a triple back flip at the Canyons a few years ago, amazing guy. My ‘ski’ reference in the original question was only trying to conjure up an image of guys like my freestyle ski friend who make it look sooo easy, that’s all.

I wish I could make riding the bumps on a board look the way Tom Curren looks when he surfs, that beautiful flow, even though I admire skiers who rip the bumps in a skier style.

Cheers

Rob

Rick, I see you have edited your original post. I hope my reply makes sense in light of this:)

[Guest rick ferguson]

It does, I did'nt want to hear the roar of the 1000 poster count guy's ripping on me for have a solid opinion of something, so I pussied out and went for the "safe" post on the subject. My local mtn. get's moguls, I avoid them , unless you are riding on a micro mtn. you should'nt have any problem finding groomer's to ride all day-otherwise- You've gone to a crappy mtn. I can do 30 run's over 16 run's that are groomed, no need to go into the bump's. Nothing wrong with them, but I am a carver! I ski as well and ONLY CARVE on my ski's same rule applies, NO SKIDDING! The challenge is great , but as far as a choice? NO:)

[Guest AlpentalRider]

I hope more guys have your attitude rick, that way i'll have the backcountry all to myself :D

[RCrobar]

Hi Nate/Neil (or any AM Coiler owner who cares to comment)

Now that you have had a season on your Coiler AllMountain(s) are you happy with the the model (Length/Sidecut, etc.) you picked?

Would you change any part of your selection if you were to do it again, longer/shorter/flex etc.?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks guys.

Rob

[Mike T]

Originally posted by RCrobar

Now that you have had a season on your Coiler AllMountain(s) are you happy with the the model (Length/Sidecut, etc.) you picked?

Would you change any part of your selection if you were to do it again, longer/shorter/flex etc.?

I wouldn't change a thing on my custom 182, 12.7 sidecut. It does everything I hoped it would (carve well in slush, fresh-over-groomed, and chop) and more (open powder fields, steeps, carve on hardpack). It's weak spots are bumps and tight trees but that wasn't a project goal.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm very happy with my Coiler AM 172 - the length, width (21.5), sidecut and stiffness (7.7) seem right for an all-rounder for my 190 lbs. If it were exclusively a bump board though I might ask Bruce to soften the flex slightly. But I did have it in big Western Canadian double-diamond bumps and it worked great. Mind you they are pretty forgiving compared to hard eastern bumps...

[Fleaman]

Hi Rob, I also got a coiler am this year, it is a 172 with a 23cm waist. If I was to do it again, I might opt for the 21.5 waist. Going from 19cm to 23 is a big jump. It took about 3 days to get used to it, but now I love it. It is good in the powder and Apex has tons of bumps , I have yet to master them but it rides similar to my old Rossi Alpine 165. I like to turn on the crests of the moguls, I find it a bit easire than getting jarred in the troughs.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Moguls were a "Pro" event back in the day. right along with Salom , GS and Halfpipe. Remember Damian's board "The BUMP". Concave little bannana like board. Good in the bumps due to the fact it would spin on a dime. Soft, rounded big time.

Some of the early videos featured allot of "Bumps"

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yup. Name-dropping old-timers story: on one of my first snowboarding trips to Sunshine, hooked up with Dave Achenbach for an afternoon. Dave Ach was one of the top "pro" bump riders of the day ('86 I believe, or maybe '87) and was on a Barfoot, which was basically a chunk of marine plywood with turned up ends glued to some p-tex and edges. It had those funky old Barfoot bindings with the super-flexy straps too. Anyways, I was struggling down this bump run he'd led me down and stopped to breathe and watch Dave. He more or less straightlined it, and about 2/3 down he let one of the bumps launch him, aired it out in a nice method over 3 or 4 bumps, then kept going. I never forgot it, and given the equipment it seems even more impressive today.

[Guest jschal01]

Interesting that no one has mentioned riding a freestyle or short freeride board with plates and high angles for bumps. "CF" had been a colorful proponent of this a while back, the idea actually makes sense to me but I've never seen someone focusing on bumps with this setup.

To me, in bumps the key is to think of it almost like a steep powder turn, pretty much the same crossunder or retraction/extension and flatter base throughout to bleed speed rather than high edge angle. The crossunder is basically the same as for carving. I have seen a few riders who looked like they were able to control speed in part by also pressing the nose into the bumps before the retraction, basically a reverse pump as if going through a rythm section, similar to bump skiers simply pressuring their boot tongues to control speed. Can't do it myself, am hoping the summer's skating will help that pump/reverse pump timing.

[RJ-PS]

I can't comment on the different boards and flexes that were recommended on large moguls as I've really only spent time with the Tanker 2K in them. It is an all-mountain design with a speed/carve bias. So here is a very biased response.... WEIGHT FORWARD!!!!!

I found that when I started getting nervous I would shift my weight back and then the board would have a mind of its own and start going wherever it wanted......not wherever I wanted. Not fun.

When I realized what was happening and forced myself to weight the front of the board it was pretty fun. The only issue for me was the time of day. It was much easier for me to navigate the bumps early in the morning when I was still fresh. Later in the day I had a hard time being able to throw the back end of my board out when necessary.

I would have to agree that a shorter board like 175-185 would work well because of having enough stability to hold up on steep terrain, but also not worry as much about having to manipulate the board at all times.

I'm not sure I would go after the huge bumps on a little board unless I really wanted a workout. Seems to me that the little boards force perfect technique and even more so when you are on steep uneven terrain.

Let us know how it turns out.

[Guest]

So here is a very biased response.... WEIGHT FORWARD!!!!!

For me it's the exact opposite. With my weight back I can direct the front of the board wherever I need it to go. If I'm too farforward, too much of the board engages and it's harder to control.

[RJ-PS]

Hi Jim,

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I think our techniques are different. I tend to use the board somewhere between the nose and first binding as a pivot point. That way as I am heading through the moguls if I start grabbing too much speed I can forward weight and toss the tail around for some quick speed stops on the back end.

If I get too much weight going on the back of the board it is really hard for me to control the front, but perhaps that's just because of the sheer size of the board.

Let me know more about your technique so I can try it this season.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't see how weight back works in anything steep. Once you get in the back seat, whether it's a board or skis, you're done in the bumps. It's just gonna squirt forward and you're out of control. On both equipment, I had a big "a-ha" moment when I learned to be forward and turn down the fall line, not across. I find for snowboards, keeping pressure on the nose is a good thing. I've seen instructors give their students drills where on a steep groomed slope, they keep the nose in contact and swing the tail back and forth between edge sets. If you can do this in bumps, you can control your speed and make nice turns.

[Guest jschal01]

Bumps are, after groomers, a great "2d Place" to practice tip rolls in preparation fro steeper turns. Actually, the bumps are great practice for steeper terrain in general as the back of hte bumps are pretty steep.

While I agree there are lots of equipment, technique and line choices that will work, weighting primarily the tail through the bumps I would find to be a bit horrifying, too. Jim, it almost sounds as if you're talking about staying soft through the bulk of the turn, then a steep bottom edgeset before committing to the next turn, rather than really leaning back the whole time? Anyway, I'm getting psyched for some fresh snow and nice, soft big bumps soon.

[mackDan]

Interesting thread.

Don't use a Oxy Proton.

My experience in riding moguls has lead me to think I understand a few things. I think you can ride moguls with just about any board (not too long) in the steep bumps, its really if you can keep the rthym going.

The rythym is somewhat related to the flex of the board which matches to certain sized moguls for a certain sized rider. So the spring rate is important and related to the rider weight/skill.

Length can be a problem if the board starts to bridge anywhere through the mogul. So shorter is better.

Round tail is better, as the squared off tail tends to catch on the Uphill side at the start of the turn. The longer the board, the worse this happens, even for a round tail board. This stops the turn just as its starting, when your balance is starting downhill, and your body continues, falling down. This can be overcome slightly by lifting the rear foot, during the transition from LtoR and RtoL, which lifts the tail of the board slightly reduces the tail catch.

Its the rythym. To slow and the mogul throws you, to fast and you hit the wrong part of the mogul.

The Headwall at Squaw Valley, after 3 weeks of no snow. VWs on a double black.

[bobdea]

was on a volkl RT either a 163 or 168

for me if I had to choose I would be on soft freeride deck, for alpine boards it would be either a burton fp 173 or 178 because there is something about those boards that makes them very easy to handle in nasty conditions maybe that they are soft torsionally or something.

I have a coiler AM that is okay in the bumps but is way more of a work out than the burton stuff due to being stiffer than those, but my AM is stiffer in the middle than the AMs that most folks have.