Extended (nose) -on PLATE

[CarvingScooby]

OPEN FOR DISCUSSION:

I've seen pixs of Extended front part of APEX Plate, I was wondering the reason to add more weight to it. I've also seen pixs where they attached some kind of hard foam underneath the plate on the front end.

After seen Blueb KST-185 delam http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31614&page=3 on the plate (the plate is fine)

1) I wonder if this nose shape cud have saved his board? The extended nose shape is intended to reduce/limit the board bending?

2) When front part of the board push the front plate "nose" end up, the plate will be bend in the centre, wud it that be defeat the purpose of having a stable platform?

RT

[queequeg]

There's this:

http://bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=319717&postcount=699

It would make sense that once the bill hits the board that it would decrease point loads at the front binding ... err mount.

[lowrider]

Make the nose of the plate flexable to give passive resistance it will reduce the loading that tends to push the plate against the board between the mounts,as well as prevent overloads on the mounting hardware. Slight pressure on the nose of the board (from the plate) may assist enough to prevent the board from going into a very agressive carve and overloading the tip.On the other hand a major crash and all bets are off. So whats going to change board design or plate design ????????????

[Corey]

This configuration is not a good one. Asking the plate to act as a isolator and also as a leverage device to apply pressure to the nose puts tons of stresses on the plate that they were not origionally desigined to endure and rips them apart.

You assume that the designer of such plate systems wouldn't know that the end of their plate might contact the board. Why is that? Making a plate that could handle those kinds of stresses isn't terribly complicated; it's exactly the same loads that the board under it sees and lasts through. (ok, most of the time they last through it... ;)) As to the worth of it, that's another debate. But I don't believe there is some structural issue that just can't be designed around if it was indeed beneficial to have an extended nose.

Jasey Jay ran foam blocks under the nose of his Apex when there was a lot of money on the line - he believed there was a benefit to some interaction between the board beneath and the plate. If he didn't believe in it, he just needed to remove the foam and it would be an isolated system until the board bent a great amount. I'd put money on him having more experience with isolation plates and all their possible permutations than anyone on this forum.

I'm going to have my first plate experience tomorrow; lowrider was kind enough to lend me one of his plates to play on. This version has the extended nose, which is noticeably more flexible than the area between the bindings when flexing it by hand. Unfortunately the only runs open right now are rather boring greens and blues. :( But at least it's going down to -33C (-27F) tonight so that'll keep most of the straight-lining idiots at home!

[Apex Insider]

I would also put money on the fact the JJA blew through a stack of plates that failed. It is asking a tremendous amount of strength and resilliance to get this plate configuration to NOT fail. Pretty confident that the weight would exceeed accepatable limits to achieve structural success.

Think Snow!

Snowman - how much money? <G>

[Buell]

While all of my info is second hand, I believe it to be credible albiet unconfirmable unless JJA and Apex want to share their numbers which I seriously doubt happening. I think I seen just about everything in the plate world, failures and successes alike.........

Come on. I appreciate that you have had more time on some plates that few on BOL have had a chance to ride and I appreciate you being able to offer your thoughts on those.

But, really. You have not seen "just about everything in the plate world." I guess that Apex and JJ could not have seen more than you. Or Benjamin Karl, or Hans Kessler, or Sigi Grabner, or any of the people working on and testing their WC caliber plates. I wish Fin and Sean the best, but the plate development world is much bigger than Colorado.

I would assume that JJ might have damaged some early plates but it seems pretty clear they got it figured out. Even if you don't think it is possible, they have shown it is.

Countering Apex Insider with your "unconfirmable" (and I bet incomplete), second hand information is pretty much guaranteed to leave you partly wrong, if not entirely wrong.

[Buell]

Yes, your opinion counts. You are pushing your credentials beyond credibility though.

It seems testing plates on the WC race courses probably pushes them hard enough to determine if they will hold up. Other plate designers probably have more experience and know more than you.

[trailertrash]

Really, 22 years on plates and 100+ day seasons for most of those years, I think my bucket holds water. I don't need your approval to voice my opinions and I think my credibility is more than ESTABLISHED!

Think Snow!

When you have to resort to the years/days riding in your argument to prove your credibility you have pretty much lost.

[Buell]

Really, 22 years on plates and 100+ day seasons for most of those years, I think my bucket holds water. I don't need your approval to voice my opinions and I think my credibility is more than ESTABLISHED!

Think Snow!

As I clearly said, your opinion counts. No, you do not need my approval to post anything. I might respond though.

The claims you have made in this thread are pushing it further than your riding and experience will allow.

When I watch video of your riding style (smooth and skilled) and then I watch video of the WC racers in a course just hammering the piss out of their plates and gear, it is clear that they know plenty about plates and strength of the plate.

Yes, you know more than most of us here about plates. Because you were involved with testing product for Fin and Donek does not mean you also know what went on during development of the Apex or any other plates out there. Fin and Donek have created, what seem to be, great products. Lucky for them, and us, they had the benefit of Apex and Co. doing the initial concept, design, and testing.

What is a cubicle? :rolleyes:

[Buell]

This is a very inaccurate statement. This design concept has been around for some time. Apex by no means "invented" this plate configuration.

Think Snow!

My underlying point is the same. Someone developed this stuff first and it sure makes it easier when the path has been laid.

[Buell]

Appreciate the compliment and if you feel it necessary for me to ride like a arm swinging ape and pound my equipment into submission to be "credible" I can accomodate, definately not my riding style preference as you have seen.

Think Snow!

You are not at their riding level. No way, no how. Sorry.

[lowrider]

:AR15firinApex "Millions and Millions" really ???????????????????????

[Michael Pukas]

I debated a long time as to whether or not to get into the middle of this pissing match, and not necessarily to defend Snowman personally... but you guys need to re-read some of the other posts, particularly the one QQ linked to; quoted f/ Apex Insider - "The duckbill on the Apex plate is not intended to alter or interfere with the flex of the snowboard."

The basic concept of a plate is to provide a (mostly) rigid platform on which the rider stands - isolation & stability. If you introduce a duckbill that is intended to flex, now you are asking the plate to do two opposite things - to flex and not to flex. Just as Scoob said originally - if the board pushes a duck bill up, then the center of the pate will bend down. If you allow the plate to flex underfoot to accept the defelction of the duckbill, then you are defeating the purpose of a stable platform. If the plate underfoot is rigid, then something's gotta give - and we've seen plate failures because of it - and more than one.

There's no doubt the Canadian team, including JJA, went through numerous plate failures in training & racing. Just how many, we don't know, only Apex knows; we only hear stories. How many plates failures are you willing to go through for your hard earned cash due to design and manufacturing flaws?

Once again, I'll say that if you add a bumper under a duck bill to contact the board, you are just changing the point around which the board can bend, and introducing a new force on the plate. There is still going to be a part of the board in front of that point that remains "unsupported" and could still possibly break. So, could a duck bill with a bumper(s) saved Blue's board? Hard to say without back-to back controlled testing... I will say probably not - sounds like a very hard crash (we're all grateful he wasn't injured).

[Buell]

I am pretty sure the extended nose with bumpers of JJs was used for dampening, not to create another point for the board to bend around.

He did win gold with that design as well as raced on it (the Canadian team also) the entire season. There might be a better design but they push their equipment far harder than we do. How can it be argued it doesn't work?

[Hans]

Michael and Buel, have a point here. And also the (early) BLING BLING Kesslers are famous for cracking the topsheets. Fast boards but also breakable (more than other boards). Their black/white later ones seems to be better resitant of breakage.

And I don't bother that Fin and Sean are lifting on the plate story. They are the ones that make the plates accessible for us weekend warriors :biggthump (I have the skills to make my own, but not the time). Keep the vibes positive and healthy here and make the discussion open as it should be :biggthump

By the way I am still interested on the plates influence on (eventual) stress points/loads on the snowboard.

[Hans]

I am pretty sure the extended nose with bumpers of JJs was used for dampening, not to create another point for the board to bend around.

He did win gold with that design as well as raced on it (the Canadian team also) the entire season. There might be a better design but they push their equipment far harder than we do. How can it be argued it doesn't work?

May be for dampening too. But we should ask the Canadians to tell their story before we have our opinion. May be they have destroyed a few boards without the dampening, who knows.... I can tell you those guys push it more than four times tougher/harder as we do (saw those guys from all country teams last year on training in Saas Fee glacier last summer and they were blowing everything away, including the girls).

[Shred Gruumer]

Well I finlaly rode two plates yesterday from SPG ... all I can say is .. its nice

its like riding a cadilac with mushy shocks you know that big car and it flotes..

Im thinking all are good.. I didn't have a problem fliping it edge to edge. really smooth... seems like now you can't go wrong for what you try or ride. I rode two version of th SPG and both felt so soft.... its a good ride. for me I think Ill put it on my coilers and ride it since it make it so soft.. I rode it yesterday in hard hard pack man maid and it felt lick buttter.. Im sure all feel the same way,. just really creamy and fun... did I looose the feel.. not really.. i think its going to be wether you like it or not,, I like it ...

I don't know what you people what to know ..so i guess ask... all I know it was unusual and it was fun... I always like a smooth ride and and thats what it idid.

I would promote any plate... all are good its so much fun so go for it.

.

Thanks Pat..

RSS

[Michael Pukas]

I am pretty sure the extended nose with bumpers of JJs was used for dampening, not to create another point for the board to bend around.

How are you pretty sure it was used for dampening? Why not reinforcing? Or changing the flex pattern of the nose? Or increasing nose pressure on a toe side turn? Yes, bumpers under the duckbill are intended to modify the board in some way. All I'm saying is that by adding bumpers one side effect is changing the point which the board can bend around.

He did win gold with that design as well as raced on it (the Canadian team also) the entire season. There might be a better design but they push their equipment far harder than we do. How can it be argued it doesn't work?

There's so much behind the scenes we don't know and only hear stories of. I've heard from several different poeple that JJA was constantly tweaking and altering his plate after every run. He obviously knows what he wants and how he likes his ride set-up. Why did he have bumpers - none of us know exactly, but my guess is his boards at that time were not designed specifically for use with a plate. A plate puts increased pressure on the nose of the board, as discussed elsewere, and he may have tried to compensate for it with the bumpers under the duckbill. Others have done it too, and plates have failed because of it. The duckbill was not deisgned to contact the board.

[lowrider]

SGP's "millions not spent" available custom only the way you want them not how someone else decides it should be. If it hinges and slides it's a plate.If it doesn't it's not. Some like theirs soft some like theirs hard. Some want them short some long.But you can only get one if you know what you want you have to know the guy. Cuban your's is comming soon! Just keep riding Shreds he's got four and can't ride them all at once. Personally speaking i think you are all full of s--t if you have enough energy to get into a pi----g match on BOL over plates you clearly are not riding hard enough or often enough to even coment on any plate especially the ones you have never ridden. As a side note i think Fin has probably spent more money on Subaru's than Apex has on pates.

[queequeg]

The duckbill was not deisgned to contact the board.

Apex has stated as much, or at least that it does not come into contact with the board during a normal GS turn. Nobody (on this forum) seems to know for certain what JJA was doing with the foam either ... or they haven't spoken up.

Nonetheless, the bill is there. I'm assuming It's there for a reason. A lot of us have speculated as to why, but nobody seems to actually know. I'm interested in knowing why the bill is built into the design. Obviously, it wasn't put there for the sole purpose of starting pissing matches on bomber (although it seems extraordinarily effective in this capacity!)

I'd really like to hear from Apex about what the thinking behind the duckbill is. That they are planning to omit it from the "sport" version of the plate, seems to indicate that it is a feature specifically designed to meet the needs of racers ... who tend towards pounding their equipment through rutted race courses in a way most freecarvers would never do.

As far as breakages go: I'd be very surprised at any product development cycle that didn't result in some broken equipment. Breaking stuff in the product development cycle seems like it would be a normal and useful function of figuring out what doesn't work. I'd be pretty surprised if there were not a number of product failures during prototyping. I'd also be very surprised to hear it if the final production version was not engineered to compensate for failures that occurred during the product development cycle. And I'd be even more surprised to hear that the Canadian team would Jeopardize their Olympic bid by taking a plate to the starting gate that they knew might fail on them mid-race.

[Michael Pukas]

Nonetheless, the bill is there. I'm assuming It's there for a reason. A lot of us have speculated as to why, but nobody seems to actually know. I'm interested in knowing why the bill is built into the design.

If it's not designed to touch the board, then I, too wanna know why it's there!

[scrutton]

I'd really like to hear from Apex about what the thinking behind the duckbill is. That they are planning to omit it from the "sport" version of the plate, seems to indicate that it is a feature specifically designed to meet the needs of racers

It could be that it saves a lot of material costs and can bring the price of the item down to a lower price more suited to that market. Carbon isn't cheap. Reduced weight, slightly reduced function, lower price point. More sales..

from that Apex post :-

"Having the duckbill act as a dampening spring is strictly an option. Michael Pukas is right - without a bumper in between, the duckbill does not contact the snowboard unless there is a major deflection."

So, with a bumper on, it would seem that the duckbill is being used to dampen the nose of the board. A compressible bumper would then act as a shock absorber for the nose.

Ignoring the bumper effect, and just considering the extra mass/material, it would surely lower the resonance of any vibrations.

Disclaimer - I've never ridden or even seen a plate in person.

[Buell]

How are you pretty sure it was used for dampening? Why not reinforcing? Or changing the flex pattern of the nose? Or increasing nose pressure on a toe side turn? Yes, bumpers under the duckbill are intended to modify the board in some way. All I'm saying is that by adding bumpers one side effect is changing the point which the board can bend around.

There's so much behind the scenes we don't know and only hear stories of. I've heard from several different poeple that JJA was constantly tweaking and altering his plate after every run. He obviously knows what he wants and how he likes his ride set-up. Why did he have bumpers - none of us know exactly, but my guess is his boards at that time were not designed specifically for use with a plate. A plate puts increased pressure on the nose of the board, as discussed elsewere, and he may have tried to compensate for it with the bumpers under the duckbill. Others have done it too, and plates have failed because of it. The duckbill was not deisgned to contact the board.

It is a guess. As has been said, it does not seem like a good idea to try to stop the nose from bending too much by introducing a small surface area contact point at the nose of the plate.

I would love to hear some of the real story. Paging Loo Sports or Apex Insider.

I do assume though, that if they were going to design a plate specifically to compensate for a board that has too soft of a nose, they would have just had new boards built and design the plate the way they wanted.

Edit: Too many irons in the fire. I had not read scrutton's post. Thanks for doing a little research.

[Buell]

How would another contact point in the plate system promote additional dampening? Seems to me, the more contact the plate system has with the board, more feedback is going to be genterated. Its my understanding that the "nose bumper" is used to provide more leverage to the nose in a attempt to keep it from folding under. Also realize that this bumper system was not part of the origional design concept, it was an attempt to provide more strength and power to the nose of boards that were not reinforced to account for the additional leverage that a plate places on it.

Think Snow!

Are you not following along?

[scrutton]

Also realize that this bumper system was not part of the origional design concept, it was an attempt to provide more strenght and power to the nose of boards that were not reinforced to account for the additional leverage that a plate places on it.

Think Snow?

Makes sense, so we can expect plate specific boards in the future with additional stiffening in the nose. Just another check-box on the custom order form.

On the mass/dampening theory, I wonder if they have its length tuned to reduce resonance somehow. From the other thread (different plate systems available), it's clear that they experimented adding length behind the rear binding also.