Free carving and these new plate systems?

[Donek]

I think the two main points of the stick leg demonstration have been completely lost for some reason.

The stick legs do not represent your real legs. They illustrate how much work your muscles are doing and how little they will need to do when a mono plate is used.

The ability to lock in that perfect stance (even if it involves your knees tucked together) that provides each individual with the ultimate in comfort and stability is possible no matter what the snow conditions or where you are in your turn.

Hopefully that clarifies it.

[MUD]

I think the two main points of the stick leg demonstration have been completely lost for some reason.

Sorry for the tangent.

I deleted my posts.

[bjvircks]

Hey MUD you spoke of modeling the real physiological behaviors of the body... check out santoshumaninc.com this thing can show when fatigue will set in and all sorts things. This is not just a bunch of linked bones with art-only flesh. That is only the pretty graphic face of actual physiologic computations. They've got a woman model now and are working on a detailed hand. My company had a role in developing Santos.

[Donek]

Sean Maccarron is probably the biggest stance nerd I know. He developed this really cool machine that helps find your best stance. Some of you may find his videos on the machine helpful. I've embeded one video here:

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His youtube channel is here: http://www.youtube.com/user/StanceFind

[Donek]

Sorry. Found the one I was looking for. This one really shows how unstable a poorly setup stance can make you.

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[Jack M]

The picture below is of Benjamin Karl riding his own original trendsetting plate design. I would not describe his technique as knees jammed together, but Benjamin clearly drives very aggressively with his back leg/knee. Just counting last season, Benjamin won the Silver Medal in PGS at the Olympics, won the Parallel and Overall World Cup titles, had 3 World Cup wins, and 9 out of 11 times he was on the podium!

That's an extremely transient moment in the carve, and, his knees aren't together anyway. I guarantee you he's not riding entire turns with his back knee tucked into the pocket of his front knee.

[Jack M]

I think the two main points of the stick leg demonstration have been completely lost for some reason.

yes, they were. this is what happens when you try to explain something around here. :rolleyes:

The stick legs do not represent your real legs. They illustrate how much work your muscles are doing and how little they will need to do when a mono plate is used.

exactly. some people did get it.

[Jack M]

Excuses, excuses. I watched a bunch of Karl video on youtube and he definately has a perchant for keeping it tucked. Your graspin.:lol: And no, of course he isn't riding entire runs tucked, geez dude.

Think Snow!

Dude, all I want is for people to quit riding like Keith Duckboy Wallace. That's all.

[MUD]

Hey MUD you spoke of modeling the real physiological behaviors of the body... check out santoshumaninc.com this thing can show when fatigue will set in and all sorts things. This is not just a bunch of linked bones with art-only flesh. That is only the pretty graphic face of actual physiologic computations. They've got a woman model now and are working on a detailed hand. My company had a role in developing Santos.

VERY cool! Thanks! I have a very extensive background in creating models (non-computer) for product testing that simulate the human body. This would be an awesome tool.

I wonder how they quantified it????

[Beckmann AG]

Dude, all I want is for people to quit riding like Keith Duckboy Wallace. That's all.

...And all I want is for the multitude of 'alpine sports enthusiasts' to quit hurting my eyes. That, and a pony.

----

The effect of the plate in the Donek 'peg-leg' video should be clear, even if the modeling is not entirely apt.

Many riders have way too much parasitic tension present in their legs, regardless of whether or not the joints exhibit either a surfeit or dearth of flexion.

So ironically, the stick legs do represent real legs.

Given that a large amount of tension is derived from the many intricacies involved in the boot/binding/body system, a plate will not likely resolve the actual cause of said tension. Rather, it seems that the plate will mitigate much of the dissonance derived from the rigid coupling (via the lower extremities) of the upper body mass to the area of contact with the snow/ice, and all that might entail.

In short, it appears the status quo will be moving faster this winter.

[nils]

I can't find the post where i asked the question about the board torsion management with the plates, it did not give much answer really, so i figured i'd ask again.

I'm pretty convinced about the suspension and isolation from raw terrain it gives compare to a normal binding ( although the sidewinder is a pretty big improvement), I am now wondering about how a plate with 4 connecting pods in its corner do not affect the torsion of the board below.

- How does the torsion stiffness, distribution is not blocked by the connection with the plate

- How free the edges are in situations where you need to really bend the board in a very close arc( in EC for example a 13m radius board will easily bend into 5-6 m radius when pushed hard)

- How are shapers supposed to handle the connection with the board in an area ( close to edges, and far from center) which is not neutral at all compare to the 4x4 pattern which is as centered as it can...

- How much power is lost with the rising of the feet ( torque is lost in the process since feet are far from edges..)

In one word: is the benefit of a plate really a benefit, what is lost in the process. I feel boards are now adapted hastily for the plates, but using old school shapes ( i consider the titanal and flat rockers an evolution that was underway before plates came out fully.)

Thnx for your thoughts

Nils

[WinterGold]

Nils, from my understanding I would say that when riding with a plate you can even improve the pressure on the edges, because you can place your toes and heels almost directly over your edges without any bootout problems, as you have more space.

And the distance also creates a better leverage, no?

From my experiences I would say that a plate improves the edge pressure a bit. Also because the pressure is distributed more evenly along the edge.

But the better the conditions, the less you recognize this and therefore the plate becomes less necessary.

[queequeg]

Sorry for the tangent.

I deleted my posts.

Ditto. :-P

[pow4ever]

These go to eleven!!!

It's one louder.

--

David

[philw]

(You possibly are unable to tell depending on your ip address and proxy skills, but the BBC iPlayer goes up to 11 also, I presume as a sign of respect, or that the managers weren't looking too closely and the engineers slipped it in.)

Laymen friendly wording for the lumber jacks and "apline sports enthusiasts" who might flounder a bit with your verbage....

Well I can't find a scientific definition of "parasitic tension", for example. It could be a pop-science word for Poisson's ratio I suppose. Google has 88 uses of the phrase, most of which are new-age woo. One or two uses are technical and specific, but in those cases the meaning is obvious from the context. Here, it just sounds confused.

[terekhov]

What? I've never seen any picture or video of any racer in the modern era riding a course with their knees jammed together.

jammed together != came regularly in almost-touch in riding dynamics

and 2nd is common

[terekhov]

If you're suffering fatigue in normal riding then probably fitness or style are the issue, and more toys won't help with those. Ditto riding "challenging" snow: people whine about that and talk about "carving" slopes: you can carve any slope on today's gear, and new toys won't help you if you can't.

I will try these when I can and if they're good I'll use them. I hope I don't have to, as an inelegant system in my view and it brings even more complexity and weight, both of which are negative aspects of hardbooting.

can't agree more!

[Surf Quebec]

Nils,

Check post http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30908

on last page for Fin's answer on torsion.

[Rob Stevens]

This doesn't seem super complicated.

If you want to rail, despite the conditions, this will let that happen.

If the snow is good and you can rail anyway, you don't need it.

[Jack M]

The effect of the plate in the Donek 'peg-leg' video should be clear, even if the modeling is not entirely apt.

Many riders have way too much parasitic tension present in their legs, regardless of whether or not the joints exhibit either a surfeit or dearth of flexion.

So ironically, the stick legs do represent real legs.

Given that a large amount of tension is derived from the many intricacies involved in the boot/binding/body system, a plate will not likely resolve the actual cause of said tension. Rather, it seems that the plate will mitigate much of the dissonance derived from the rigid coupling (via the lower extremities) of the upper body mass to the area of contact with the snow/ice, and all that might entail.

In short, it appears the status quo will be moving faster this winter.

Perhaps the plate will help people realize that their binding/boot setup is not tuned properly to their body? Because now the mounting surface will remain constantly flat. I think that's going to feel very different. I imagine many people are going to have to make binding/boot adjustments after they buy one of these.

[Rob Stevens]

Sorry. Found the one I was looking for. This one really shows how unstable a poorly setup stance can make you.

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</P>Great training tool.

I'm sure if your model looked right long enough under those controlled conditions, she'd ride switch much better the next time she was on snow.

That's not really the point of your stance-finder, but is an interesting side benefit, from my instructor / coach point of view.

[Rob Stevens]

Don't knock it until you have tried it. Conditions are not always what we consider optimum and we are not going to be superman forever, things (the body) wear out over time. Eliminating some of that beating that is associated with frim, icy and otherwise variable conditions will aid in slowing down that wear process and turn your game up a few notches. It's truly is amazing how blindingly fast and in control you can go when conditions are gnarley. No, not for every day but maybe for days when you would just pack her up and head home for a nap. Definately broadens your horizions as to what you consider acceptable conditions.

Think Snow!

Word.

The tortion question is not a difficult one to grasp, when looked at in the same way. These subtle twisting moves that may have a somewhat noticeable effect in freeriding at lower speeds are sooo overpowered by tortional inputs from the snow surface in full speed race mode.

Tortional motions made to balance the core will still balance the core, whether you're on this plate or not.

[bobdea]

Word.

The tortion question is not a difficult one to grasp, when looked at in the same way. These subtle twisting moves that may have a somewhat noticeable effect in freeriding at lower speeds are sooo overpowered by tortional inputs from the snow surface in full speed race mode.

Tortional motions made to balance the core will still balance the core, whether you're on this plate or not.

you can speak so..... clearly. without any mind bending fancy lad talk. I like that.

[philw]

Ok, got it. Having the resources of the world's best (as of the other day) university to hand has its uses.

Here's a definition of types of "parasitic loads":

http://www.hbm.com/en/menu/applications/torque-measurement/terms-expressions/parasitic-loads/

So now I need to know how that applies to to this situation. Stop me when you're ready to say "it's a fair cop, guv" and I'll do something more useful whilst waiting for the snow.

[nils]

I've read fin's answer but was not fully convinced on all the aspects.

Torsion of a board is not just something usefull under the feet, but it also has a great importance on how the board will grip the snow, how the nose and tail will be able to control the trajectory, and give the board the ability to release edge or keep burrying when needed: a board that constant hooks is not a good board, a board that releases too easy under pressure neither... hence the need for progressive torsion distribution and control: my question regarding the plates is how does it allow that to be freely controlable by the board design if it has connecting points right where on the torsion arc on each side of the board ( if you prefer: on the outside of the butterfly torsion pattern).

i have understood the longitudinal flex is not affected, and even given more freedom with the plate: what happens sideways in torsion is my question ( i believe in torsion, not resistance, but progressivity and ability to make flex and sidecut dialog, hence my insistance in knowing better if plates are taking that side in consideration, or how shapers will modify the conception of boards with hard points at a new position.

Nils