Binding Angles

[piusthedrcarve]

Summer time in BOL is like menstruation ...

[lowrider]

Thats the kind of comment one would expect from Virginia( sorry couldn't help that responce)

[lowrider]

Softer plate in spring slush and 80 degree temps. harder plate on ice and boilerplate. SGP prototypes

[lowrider]

Latest pics are on Alpine snowboard plate thread

[b0ardski]

but that doesn't make me a bad hardbooter:freak3:

It just means I'm a po'assed mo'fo that can't afford a new custom metal 190 x 22.5 twin tip vsr asym flex early rise board.

This thread has certainly mutated in entertaining ways...

... where were we? oh yea, angles

I certainly don't twist the 10 yr old uber stiff 18 wide Identity 185 carbon race vsr progressive flex at 58*/63* in 15yr old stiff non-suspended step-in plates much by pedaling.

But I can twist the crap out of the 25 wide Identity 173 twin tip vsr at 37*/45* with the same binders and softer boots.

do I need to pedal; no

do I like to pedal; yes

when I do buy a custom metal, it'll be wide enough to pedal

An isolation plate might be great for getting the dead spots out of the 185s flex. I took it off the top of the rack just now to flex it & double check the angle, now I'm jonesin'

[SunSurfer]

Summer time in BOL is like menstruation ...

Northern Hemisphere PMT!? (pre-mountain tension)

SunSurfer

[b0ardski]

I do have to try to twist it to initiate the heelside (factory reject has edge issues on the nose) wich takes a lot of knee action rather than pedaling.

[bobdea]

Bob, shut up. Let me rephrase this also. Bob-how many plates have you ridden and how much time do you have on them to formulate your overly staunch opinions? Damn, my out loud voice again! And to clarify, there has been more metal under my feet in the last three years then their will be under yours the rest of your days riding. I've put in the time and miles and even own a metal that I enjoy emensely and look forward to more being in the fleet very soon. Mabey a plate also.

Think Snow!

stop changing the subject, how many plates I've owned or how many metal boards does not make any difference in this conversation.

I'm not going to have fight with you, about who has what or why you had a better breakfast than me or anything else.

I have no idea why you want to fight so much....

Can you prove that pedaling does a warp the board in a controllable manner and effects the way it rides in a real world situation? I might be wrong and that's exactly whats happening, I just think it's less complicated than that. I have no proof, just some logic that might be wrong and I have no way to prove or dis-prove it.

I'm not throwing stones or anything and I'm not out to get you.

[nekdut]

August.

Always happens around this time of the year. :)

[b0ardski]

I do that too, but no, pushing the front knee out to get the heelside tip to bite.

[b0ardski]

pedaling isn't complicated, it's very simple; push/pull foot=edge bites/releases

It doesn't matter if you believe in pedaling, pedaling believes in you:ices_ange

is anybody gonna talk about angles?

[bobdea]

Really, well then, lets break this down to simplist terms. Whats you total day count for the last three years. Yes pedaling works but not soo great with plate. I know you don't think so and we have hashed this out time an time again on other threads. You are wrong Bob. Don't spew you spew if you haven't acutally put in the time. Mileage is the only real way to back up you statemets. You have proven in the past to be overly opioniated without the mileage to back up your statements. You expempify internet snowboarding at its finest.

Think Snow!

saying it works does not prove anything. why are you trying to make this into a flame war?

as far as mileage goes I have 50 plus days on a burner 197, it was awhile ago though. 2002 or 2003 does that count?

in the last three years I have not been out a whole lot of days. spent them on a variety of boards and some of the first gen two piece plates though.

I don't know where this lack of mileage bit comes in, from 96 to 2005/6 I was getting on snow at least 3 to 4 times a week. in regard to pedaling this should be sufficient. for the question I'm asking none would even be sufficient.

Let me try to make this clear as possible. When people describe pedaling I think it's something everyone does and it is effective to keep you balanced but not in the rider is accurately changing the board geometry that some suggest but that does not matter as long as it keeps you from flying into the trees.

I'm asking for proof or at least a solid argument against what I'm saying. all I've seen in this thread is someone who suggested leaning against a wall and some other who say that's what they want to think so it must be so.

maybe when there's some snow do some video?

IDK, I'd like to be proven wrong actually. the warping theory is cool but like I said I don't buy it.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Just looking around to see if my angles are ok for carving next year.

I have 69/69 right now on a with a 200mm waist width. Is that ok/good?

Thanks for anyhelp.

;)

[Jack M]

No, I call it the lemming effect. Pretty confiedent that races can be won still today sans plate. As a rule of thumb, racers just buy what the guy winning has. Not many think out side the box, if JJ can win the olympics on it I gotta have it to win mentality.

:lol: That's some mad respect you've got for the racers there! :D

AFAIK, it wasn't just the Olympics, the Canadians were doing well on the WC all season on the Apex plate. That's why they camouflaged it, and why everyone wanted to know what it was and why everyone was trying to copy it.

As for pedaling, I don't know why anyone would want to make half their board bite while the other half is just along for the ride. You can ask Bruce (or Bob for that matter) whether or not I can stuff a 185 NSR down a narrow trail.

[philw]

(still no snow here)

Boards which are torsionally soft are a good thing? That's an interesting thing to say. Before I run off to get a park board:

• Precisely which current boards do you think are particularly good at this?
  
• How does a plate affect your twisting activity?
  
• Do you have any idea how the physics of this work?
  

It's just that the conventional wisdom is that torsional stiffness is good. Metal and plates seem to back that up. And some young whipper-snappers bolt aluminium plate bindings across the deck, which doesn't help the lateral flex much. Then they stick big old ski-boot like things in the bindings, and those aren't know for their ability to support large strains. There's some flex in the bindings, but that's working against what's being said here.

Your there to ride the board not let the board ride you.

I quite often sleep in the same room as my boards and not one of them has ever tried to ride me, although they all punctuate better than you old guys.

We all know how to ride, what you're failing to explain is how waggling your legs about inside your boots would make us better at it.

[Jack M]

Not trying to be disrespectfuly but as the saying goes: first on race day sales on Monday! So, is what we (you) are implying is that there is no way that races can be won with a plate? Is it absoultely necessary to podium or is it possible that talent and skill can win without wangle dangle gadetry? Yes, they work and fantastically and have helped many people; racers and freecarvers alike, achieve a higher level of riding, but necessary? I think its wrong to be so absoulute with your thinking.

Think Snow!

You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say that. I would like to agree with you that talent could trump seemingly required equipment. If you have so much time to spend on the hill, why not race yourself and find out?

However we simply have not seen that happen, afaik. The Olympic podium was Anderson, Karl, Bozzetto, all on plates. Karl was on his own Apex clone (or is the Apex a clone of the Karl? I forget) I'm not sure if Bozzetto was on an Apex or clone or a Vist or Hangl. Karl won the overall WC PGS. In the WC, if you're not on an Apex/clone, you're on a Vist or Hangl, or you're not in the game. Surely someone on the WC has experimented with removing their plate in training.

As for the weight penalty, it has been there for a long time with Vist and Hangl. I know the goal for the Bomber plate was to come in at or under the weight of a Vist, I have to imagine that was a goal for Apex too.

[Jack M]

Couple of reasons. 1st I am too old. 2nd its never been my desire to stand around a course for hours waiting for my 45 second run down an icy rutted course on to thrash my body and equipment . Its just not my bag, never has been. My one and only race, damn near 20 years ago, I broke off a bamboo at ground level with my right ass cheek. Hit it so hard with my cheek that I saw stars in my head, bled and had a cheek sized bruise the hung arond for a month. That one experience killed for me. I love the big GS Super G sized smooth flowing ride rather that the bone jarring, filling loosening race course. I understand the for some people its all about the clock and bragging rights, but for me, I enjoy the mileage and soulful feeling of freeriding big mountains on big snowboard. As far as plate are concerned I love em, think there are great and a fantastic aid. I am looking forward to mounting one up on a Silly Good this year, should be an amazingly fast and compliant ride.

Think Snow!

I do not race either, for all of those same reasons. I tried it briefly and it just didn't stand it up for me. However I don't think you (or I) are too old, there are master's divisions for us. If I had the kind of time and money flexibility in my life to ride as much as it appears you do, I'd sacrifice some of those days to see how I'd do in a course again.

[Neil Gendzwill]

OK, so Snowman, if I understand you for all your smack talking about how many miles people have put in, you have essentially zero miles on the race course and therefore no objective idea of how your pedaling technique affects time through a race course.

And in the time I wrote this, I see the same applies to Jack - no serious race experience.

FWIW I don't either but I don't speculate on what does or doesn't work on the race course.

[Jack M]

FWIW I don't either but I don't speculate on what does or doesn't work on the race course.

You can see what equipment works on the race course with your own eyes. You don't have to be a chicken to judge an egg.

You can also surmise that the benefit of plates and having your feet on a rigid platform trumps the ability to pedal or otherwise deform the board with your feet.

[kieran]

nibbles, anyone? ;)

[Jack M]

Is that "surmise" or speculate?

Think Snow!

Surmise. Obviously if pedaling were that important, two-piece Hangls would still be in favor. Even the Vist impedes pedaling.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can see what equipment works on the race course with your own eyes. You don't have to be a chicken to judge an egg.

I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of bagging on peoples lack of experience when Snowman himself has a lack of experience in the area under discussion. He may be a kick-ass freerider but he doesn't race. Instead he makes snide comments about the people who do race.

[lowrider]

An audience or a dictionary:boxing_sm

[b0ardski]

Just looking around to see if my angles are ok for carving next year.

I have 69/69 right now on a with a 200mm waist width. Is that ok/good?

Thanks for anyhelp.

Ironic how an innocent little ? by a young racer named harmless

turned into a heated battle of the age old free ride vs. racer wars.

Don't let the soul searchin' old farts vs. passionate gate bashers scare you off Harmless. Everybody here are nice people in person (if a bit opinionated) when the late summer jones aint driving us crazy. Epic thead man, keep it up.

Speaking of which, Powder & twsnowboard showed up in the mail box yesterday, as if my jones needed any help.

Funny how the soft, malleable urethane bindings in tws make me laugh nauseously:barf:, while the AT boots in powder make me drool enviously.:p

If I could just put stepin heels on those terminator Xs or TLTs:ices_ange

[bobdea]

Snide but accurate. It amazes me the gear that is present at races under peoples feet that by observing them couldn't buy a turn yet have 3K worth of gear under them. Thats the way many racers are! Don't get me wrong, there is a ton of fantastic talent also, but, learn to command and utilize the board to its fullest extent before you drop big bucks on things your not ready for. Neil, don't take this too personally but facts is facts. You think that I should stand down and have no credibility cuz I don't spend all my time in a course and that to me is humorous! I don't feel the need to list my riding resume to you, just know that I ride alot and have forumlated my opinions on a ton of trial and error and have the awsome opportunity to ride lots of different gear from defferent manufacutrers. If thats not enough for you, I will try and step up my game a bit.

Think Snow!

are you talking actual world cup races or the local old mans/kids league?

anyone that makes it to the world cup level probably was on something that works pretty well to make it there.

If it's amateurs you're talking about, well, no ****. some people have 3k setups and 99 cent talent. like me! but you can't really hold that same judgement against actual full time athletes.