Binding Angles

[KingCrimson]

Nobody called the kid a sally, and the Kluger well, built for someone much heavier than I hence its unrideability for me. And Burners will always be a sought after classic, overblown or not. Afterburners pale in comparison. Other than having a similar shape its a completely different ride. There have been other manufactures that have produced splits (both nose and tail) other than Tinkler and Alpinepunk. Bamboo, Ill just give it time you will undoubtdly formulate an opposing opinion to mine purely for the sake of argument. What I think we might be suggesting to our young racer friend is listen too and learn from the old farts that have far more mileage than he. But hey, what the hell do I know? I am pretty confident that this gentle ribbing was done very tounge in cheek with no malice intended.

Think Snow!

Don't worry. I'm listening.

Not just to the "old farts" though....

The Orange Coiler is pure badass. It's even cooler now that it's got pieces falling off everywhere. It's like a rat rod snowboard.

[Buell]

I sparked this because I disagreed with Carvedog's philosophy......

KC, I find this statement and a lot of your posts in this thread quite strong considering that, from what I can tell, you do not yet have the skills or experience necessary to "disagree with Carvedog's philosophy."

Like you, I do not practice pedaling and I like my new school shaped metal boards. Keep in mind though, Carvedog is hardly alone among longtime, skilled freecarvers to suggest that pedaling works and to use it. I don't doubt that it works for them and you probably should not either.

I am pretty sure that Carvedog has been carving since before you were born. He has also been a level III instructor and examiner. That is no small snowboarding accomplishment.

Rebecca and I had the pleasure of riding with Carvedog on his 197 Burner this past March at Sun Valley. Even with a hurt back, he was a freight train coming down the slope at speed making huge SG turns! I had to pull off the run every time I was foolish enough to go first.

You should definitely take Snowman up on his invite to go ride with them. I know I would if I was in their area.

[tex1230]

The older I get the better I was.....

Hey, I resemble that remark....

[KingCrimson]

KC, I find this statement and a lot of your posts in this thread quite strong considering that, from what I can tell, you do not yet have the skills or experience necessary to "disagree with Carvedog's philosophy."

Like you, I do not practice pedaling and I like my new school shaped metal boards. Keep in mind though, Carvedog is hardly alone among longtime, skilled freecarvers to suggest that pedaling works and to use it. I don't doubt that it works for them and you probably should not either.

I am pretty sure that Carvedog has been carving since before you were born. He has also been a level III instructor and examiner. That is no small snowboarding accomplishment.

Rebecca and I had the pleasure of riding with Carvedog on his 197 Burner this past March at Sun Valley. Even with a hurt back, he was a freight train coming down the slope at speed making huge SG turns! I had to pull off the run every time I was foolish enough to go first.

You should definitely take Snowman up on his invite to go ride with them. I know I would if I was in their area.

This is not a defense of my riding ability. I'm sure it's below average for posters in this thread. However, I've had between 100-115 days in hardboots so far.

While also far, far below (5% of some people's days?) the average in this thread, I feel it's more than enough time to deem a technique ineffective. I've been lucky enough to be hugely supported by a wide base of local hardbooters, all of whom have differing ideas about technique.

I feel I've had enough days, runs, and crashes to determine what, amongst the things I've tried, works for me.

I'm very open to suggestions with my riding, and always try to maintain my attitude as a student..if not a difficult one.

While I probably went outside the student attitude here and made an ass of myself, (in several posts) I never said pedalling doesn't or can't work.. I stated some things I thought to be true, as well as asked some questions.

Carvedog explained his technique with the wall trick, and I disagreed with his concept. Boardski explained some things, and all though we weren't directly talking about the exact same subject, he answered my questions. It helped me to better understand the purpose in Carvedog's technique. I still don't agree with it.

I'm definitely going to take Snowman up on his offer. There are few things on the snow more fun than getting completely destroyed.

Anyway, back to the (off) topic.

Can we reasonably assume that pedalling is an older technique, or at least tied to older gear? Carvedog, Boardski, and Snowman all pedal, and are hugely attached to older boards.

Bryan didn't mention his preference.

Conversely, the most recent gear makes it harder to pedal, and I think "newschoolers" are largely against pedalling.

The difference between these two is why I pulled the gear card on Carvedog.

[Buell]

This is not a defense of my riding ability. I'm sure it's below average for posters in this thread. However, I've had between 100-115 days in hardboots so far.

While also far, far below (5% of some people's days?) the average in this thread, I feel it's more than enough time to deem a technique ineffective. I've been lucky enough to be hugely supported by a wide base of local hardbooters, all of whom have differing ideas about technique.

I feel I've had enough days, runs, and crashes to determine what, amongst the things I've tried, works for me.

I'm very open to suggestions with my riding, and always try to maintain my attitude as a student..if not a difficult one.

While I probably went outside the student attitude here and made an ass of myself, (in several posts) I never said pedalling doesn't or can't work.. I stated some things I thought to be true, as well as asked some questions.

Carvedog explained his technique with the wall trick, and I disagreed with his concept. Boardski explained some things, and all though we weren't directly talking about the exact same subject, he answered my questions. It helped me to better understand the purpose in Carvedog's technique. I still don't agree with it.

I'm definitely going to take Snowman up on his offer. There are few things on the snow more fun than getting completely destroyed.

Anyway, back to the (off) topic.

Can we reasonably assume that pedalling is an older technique, or at least tied to older gear? Carvedog, Boardski, and Snowman all pedal, and are hugely attached to older boards.

Bryan didn't mention his preference.

Conversely, the most recent gear makes it harder to pedal, and I think "newschoolers" are largely against pedalling.

The difference between these two is why I pulled the gear card on Carvedog.

A good friend of mine got to see you ride in the latter part of this winter. It does not sound like you actually do have "enough time to deem a technique ineffective" yet.

Trust me, because I have also made this mistake enough times. What works for you at the moment, will evolve into something else as your understanding of carving grows. This is a continuous and slow process. It is safest not to make concrete statements so early in your carving career (especially going up against longtime riders). You will prove yourself wrong on many of them as you become a better rider.

Pedaling does seem to be brought up mostly by long time skilled freecarvers. I think that has more to do with the equipment that they learned on and have ridden on most of their time as carvers. Some of these riders still prefer the way the older gear rides or have not spent the money on a new design.

Aside from riding with an isolation plate, I do not see any reason why new gear makes it harder to pedal. While technique has definitely evolved with the newer designs, I think the new designs are just far easier to ride. I expect that is what makes developing the ability to pedal, and using it, unnecessary for us.

[bobdea]

Can we reasonably assume that pedalling is an older technique, or at least tied to older gear? Carvedog, Boardski, and Snowman all pedal, and are hugely attached to older boards.

seems logical but I don't think going all the way to the other side is bright either. you might cramp their machismo though.

thing is, this ground has been covered in other threads a couple folks got really upset when someone suggested pedaling might not actually do what they think it does even though it was admitted that it might be effective because trying to pedal likely helps them get aligned and put weight where it needs to be.

IMO if a board is soft enough to pedal the way people want to think they are pedaling it, it's probably too soft to control in that manner when you are actually moving.

also gonna suggest that if pedaling does work the way some want to think it does it would probably be a hell of a lot less effective on a 200ish board because of the shallower sidecut and having less control what's going on out at the tip and the tail.

not intended to upset anyone... just think it's way more simple than some people think it is for this.

BTW, this reminds me a lot of when ski shapes changed pretty dramatically and so did technique and the associated arguments you'd see on ski forums.

[KingCrimson]

A good friend of mine got to see you ride in the latter part of this winter. It does not sound like you actually do have "enough time to deem a technique ineffective" yet.

Trust me, because I have also made this mistake enough times. What works for you at the moment, will evolve into something else as your understanding of carving grows. This is a continuous and slow process. It is safest not to make concrete statements so early in your carving career (especially going up against longtime riders). You will prove yourself wrong on many of them as you become a better rider.

Pedaling does seem to be brought up mostly by long time skilled freecarvers. I think that has more to do with the equipment that they learned on and have ridden on most of their time as carvers. Some of these riders still prefer the way the older gear rides or have not spent the money on a new design.

Aside from riding with an isolation plate, I do not see any reason why new gear makes it harder to pedal. While technique has definitely evolved with the newer designs, I think the new designs are just far easier to ride. I expect that is what makes developing the ability to pedal, and using it, unnecessary for us.

For the first statement, I may be very wrong about my time on the snow. I know that body positioning that twists the board has never resulted in consistent control for me, so I probably won't go trying it anytime soon.

I've still yet to say pedalling is invalid. Nor have I completely dismissed it.

The bold items in your post are the direction I was heading..Not a Burner burning. As far as newschool gear making pedalling harder, my metal Coiler is pretty much impossible to twist underfoot.

I think my attitude wasn't reflected in my posts. My writing style is a bit too convoluted for my brain, and I think I generally come off as challenging people when I sincerely am asking a question. I'll be more direct in the future. Again, I stick around Bomber as a student, not a troublemaker or to act like I know how to carve. I know I'm a baby in more ways than one.

[slopestar]

From what I have heard here, I pedal my freeride gear, but not the alpine. Freeriding has become so second nature that rather than let the SCR determine the arc of the turn, I will twist and torque each foot to milk all I can from the turn. Not having the time and experience on the alpine gear is making what is normally second nature, more difficult...I tend to ride the radius on the alpine but when trying to pedal to get "more" out of a carve, I tend to fall out the backseat or buckle my back leg under during the turn. Interesting though...I agree with the time on the board. I don't give the alpine setup the time I should and therefore it is still a hobby and not yet a passion like it is for so many of you. Thanks for letting me drop my 2 cents

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

For the first statement, I may be very wrong about my time on the snow. I know that body positioning that twists the board has never resulted in consistent control for me, so I probably won't go trying it anytime soon.

I've still yet to say pedalling is invalid. Nor have I completely dismissed it.

The bold items in your post are the direction I was heading..Not a Burner burning. As far as newschool gear making pedalling harder, my metal Coiler is pretty much impossible to twist underfoot.

I think my attitude wasn't reflected in my posts. My writing style is a bit too convoluted for my brain, and I think I generally come off as challenging people when I sincerely am asking a question. I'll be more direct in the future. Again, I stick around Bomber as a student, not a troublemaker or to act like I know how to carve. I know I'm a baby in more ways than one.

Well said. I think you are well ahead of the curve as a young alpine snowboarder and a person. I think if you re-read some of the posts you will find that everyone, especially the old farts are genuinely proud of you and your progress. Know that , as Buell so wisely stated, your improving skills and time on board will constantly cause to to re-examine what you once believed. Enjoy!!

[philw]

It is safest not to make concrete statements so early in your carving career (especially going up against longtime riders).

Would it perhaps help if we created a separate forum for "old farts". That way, there would be no way that they could ever lose a debate. They could reside there with their 2.1m boards, shuffling piles of old lift tickets and reminiscing about how good things used to be. Safe, free from change, free from young whipper-snappers who don't show them and their "careers" enough "respect".

[bobdea]

Would it perhaps help if we created a separate forum for "old farts". That way, there would be no way that they could ever lose a debate. They could reside there with their 2.1m boards, shuffling piles of old lift tickets and reminiscing about how good things used to be. Safe, free from change, free from young whipper-snappers who don't show them and their "careers" enough "respect".

ohhh snap!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Would it perhaps help if we created a separate forum for "old farts". That way, there would be no way that they could ever lose a debate. They could reside there with their 2.1m boards, shuffling piles of old lift tickets and reminiscing about how good things used to be. Safe, free from change, free from young whipper-snappers who don't show them and their "careers" enough "respect".

Hee. This has been an entertaining thread for sure.

[Jack M]

The fact that racers would eagerly give up the ability to "pedal" a board in favor of the benefits of isolation plates (Apex, etc) should tell you something about the effectiveness and usefulness of pedaling.

Bob Dea, man, I'd love to see you get back into shape and kill it on a board, because it sounds like you once did, some time ago. Alpine seems to be very important to you, why not commit to it? It would benefit your life in so many ways.

[slopestar]

I really really want to respond to this statement that is basd purely on opinion; but, I gonna leave it alone for now. Carefull Jack. You gonna make it to SES this season, if so we can do some on snow Pedaling instruction/demostration for the naysayers. Like I suggested to you in the past push it, twist it, bend it forceably and the ability to get a snowboard to perform beyond its listed specifications is incredible. Soo, shake that ass a little and become more dynamic on you snowboard and get it to perform beyond what the specs suggest. Just sayin, thats all.

Think Snow!

Nice snowman. You open up the debate of racers vs freeride/freecarve. I have always liked stiff boards that were tortionally soft if that makes sense? However, I can only speak for softbooters that carve. I think that there are so many variations of the alpine disciplines that gear and style is open to interpretation.

[bobdea]

The fact that racers would eagerly give up the ability to "pedal" a board in favor of the benefits of isolation plates (Apex, etc) should tell you something about the effectiveness and usefulness of pedaling.

Bob Dea, man, I'd love to see you get back into shape and kill it on a board, because it sounds like you once did, some time ago. Alpine seems to be very important to you, why not commit to it? It would benefit your life in so many ways.

never was THAT good, was good at some things though, could bring a GS board just about anywhere and be fine. If I thinned out I'd be better off for a lot of reasons. the last time I had what I consider a great day riding and feeling okay about where I was at in regard to how well I ride was actually the the week I got that orange coiler KC has. that was awhile ago now.

[kieran]

how long before this turns into a skit from CELEBRITY DEATHMATCH, i wonder.

[slopestar]

how long before this turns into a skit from CELEBRITY DEATHMATCH, i wonder.

Should be a tag team match/ old school and racers vs:argue: new school and softbooters:eplus2:

[Jack M]

I really really want to respond to this statement that is based purely on opinion;

Interesting, is it an opinion that racers are flocking to setups with isolation plates that eliminate pedaling?

:P

[bobdea]

No, I call it the lemming effect. Pretty confiedent that races can be won still today sans plate. As a rule of thumb, racers just buy what the guy winning has. Not many think out side the box. What do you thing Sean and Bruce, can races still be won without? Can you build a board that can win without a plate?

Think Snow!

wow!

so, is clinging to the past thinking outside the box?

[Puddy Tat]

wow!

so, is clinging to the past thinking outside the box?

Awesome:lol:

[Buell]

Who needs trolls!

This thread has it all!

:lol:

[lowrider]

:AR15firinIs a plate only to be used to win races or will it be embraced as a tool to be use by all . It can be used to shave time in a race but people will come to realise over time that it's greatest use will be to stave off fatigue Lets call it Red Bull for the knees. As far as the debate over pedaling just use a softer plate and pedal away.....................

[bobdea]

Aim to please. On a lighter note, winter is in the air up in Grand County Colorado. Cold, dark, ominous, low hanging clouds and sub 40 deg temps in the morning.

Think Snow!

just gotta rub it in don't you? high 80s here and 100% humidity in these parts. I miss CO!

[lowrider]

So the plan is to only offer a very stiff plate when the option of either stiff or soft could be the preference of some or perhaps many rec riders ???

[lowrider]

Having ridden both stiff and soft plates i am of the opinion both have a place. When it comes to riders choice it seems a shame if people never get the chance to experience both.