Say a prayer...

[b0ardski]

solution, answer, magic wand, whatever.

Our elected officials are only interested in being re-elected. The answer there is a single term limit, and a 6 year presidency.

Love the idea but it'll never get through congress, they like their position too much:mad:

[Petrol]

fact = bad as it is, the ruptured well, currently pouring an estimated 210,000 gallons of oil a day into the gulf, could flow for years and still not begin to approach the 36 billion gallons of oil spilled by Iraqi forces when they left Kuwait in 1991.

As we watch the disaster in the Gulf, it’s important to remember that the biggest oil spill in the history of man was not caused by an evil oil company trying to cut corners for profit.

It was created by the dictator that the left tried very hard to stop us from removing from power. In fact, the current oil spill would have to continue, every day, for about 470 years before it would reach the levels of Saddam’s intentional spill.

About half the oil evaporated, a million barrels were recovered and 2 million to 3 million barrels washed ashore, mainly in Saudi Arabia.

So on the bright side, employ all the preventive measure we mightwe will see another oil spill, but at least we know that Saddam won’t be responsible for it.

btw, interestingly enough even the damage of a spill this huge, wasn’t all that bad relitively speaking for considering that according to the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, “natural oil seeps contribute the highest amount of oil to the marine environment, accounting for 46 per cent of the annual load to the world’s oceans.” That's right, crude oil IS natural.

btw II, while you are praying, PLEASE say a prayer for the victims of the WORST disater since the civil war...

the floods in Nashville where residents and victims were waking up to the aftermath of the area’s largest rainfall in 500 years.

None of them 'blame' obama, but I wonder where is he... is Nashville to _______ or is it simply that there is so much more political power & control over our lives to be gained via the "oil-spill"?

at the same time much of the left was trying to blame the failed Times Sqaure bombing on the "Tea-Party"

[bjvircks]

btw, interestingly enough even the damage of a spill this huge, wasn’t all that bad relitively speaking for considering that according to the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, “natural oil seeps contribute the highest amount of oil to the marine environment, accounting for 46 per cent of the annual load to the world’s oceans.” That's right, crude oil IS natural.

This aspect of the situation was completely off my radar until you mention it! Thanks for the added perspective.

[Alaskan Rover]

Maybe these words from Chief Dan George can put this gulf spill in perspective. They are true words...and they come from a man who knows.

"I am a Native American.

In the course of my lifetime, I have lived in two distinct cultures. I was born into a culture that lived in communal houses. My grandfather's house was an eighty foot long "smoke house, and it stood by the beach along the inlet. In all houses like that throughout the tribe, people learned to live with one another; learned to serve one another; learned to respect one another and the rights of others. My father was born into such a house,as was I, and we learned from infancy how to love people and be at home with them.

Beyond this acceptance of one another, there was a deep respect for everything in nature that surrounded them. My father loved the earth and all its creatures. The earth was his second mother. The earth and everything it contained was a gift from the Great Spirit See-see-am...and the way to thank this great spirit was to use his gifts with respect.

This then, was the culture i was borne into and for some years, the only one I really knew or tasted. this is why I find it hard to accept many of the things I see around me.

I see people living in smoke-houses hundreds of times bigger than the one I knew. But the people in one apartment do not even know the people in the next, and could care less about them.

It is also hard for me to understand the deep hate that exists among people. It is hard to understand a culture that justifies the killing of millions in past wars and is continually in preparation to kill even more. We natives had many battles amongst our tribes and nations, but we did not make an industry out of it. It is hard for me to understand a culture that spends more on wars and weapons to kill, than it does on education and health to help and develop.

It is hard for me to understand a culture that not only hates and fights his brothers but even attacks nature and abuses her. I see my white brothers going about blotting out nature from his cities. I see him strip hills bare, leaving ugly wounds on the face of mountains. I see him tearing things from the bosum of mother earth as though she were a monster who refused to share her treasures with him. I see him throw poison in the waters, indifferent to the life he kills there; and I see him chokling the air with deadly fumes.

My white brother does many things well, for he is more clever than my people in terms of science and building things, but I wonder if he really knows how to love well. I wonder if he has ever really learned how to love at all. Perhaps he only loves the things that are his own, but never learned to love the things that are outside and beyond him. And this of course, is not love at all...for man must love ALL creation or he will love none of it.

My culture did not price the hoarding of private possessions, in fact to hoard was a shameful thing to do among my people. The Indian looked on all things in nature as belonging to him and he expected to share them with others and take only what he needed.

Everyone likes to give as well as receive. No one wishes only to receive all the time.

We have taken much from your culture...I only wish you had taken something from our culture...for there were some beautiful and good things in it.

The only thing that can truly help us is genuine love. You must truly love us, be patient with us and share with us. And WE must, in turn, love you - with a genuine love that forgives and forgets...a love that forgives the terrible sufferings your culture brought to ours when it swept over us like a wave crashing along a beach...with a love that forgets and lifts up its head and sees in your eyes an answering love of trust and acceptance.

This is brotherhood...anything less is not worthy of the name.

I have spoken."

Chief Dan George of the Salish Tribe of northwest Washington and British Columbia. Spoken 1974.

also known as Chief Geswanouth Slahoot (Thunder coming up over the land from the water) amongst his people.

[Petrol]

It is hard for me to understand a culture that not only hates and fights his brothers but even attacks nature and abuses her. I see my white brothers going about blotting out nature from his cities. I see him strip hills bare, leaving ugly wounds on the face of mountains. I see him tearing things from the bosum of mother earth as though she were a monster who refused to share her treasures with him. I see him throw poison in the waters, indifferent to the life he kills there; and I see him chokling the air with deadly fumes.

yes, the native Americans fought, killed and inslaved his brothers...

No, North American was NOT the pristine a totally pristine, natural wilderness populated by millions of Indian people who were transparent in the landscape, living as natural elements of the ecoshere.

Similar to forest managers of today, Indians of the longleaf pine forests purposely burned areas for centuries to create habitat for thier plants, villages, to clear undergrowth from hunting lands and to cause wildlife migrations.

No scaring whatsoever ;)

[softbootsurfer]

Mr. Diamond has contributed in a number of positive ways to our World...

Two Books on Mans impacts in different societies that I found fascinating

and knowledgeable...

"Guns, Germs and Steel"

and

"Collapse"

just the arrival of the europeans in the Americas devastated most of the populace at the time through disease...and an army of thousands defeated

by a few hundred on horses with firesticks...

[bobdea]

asset protection is something free markets should employ, not sure what that has to do with the excessive size of government.

Pointing out the wastefulness of unused electronics and a desire for multiple sources of "clean" energy seems to rub you the wrong(left?) way bob:rolleyes:

what I was saying is that forcing company to be safe and and not use single hulled tankers or insist that oil companies install shut off valves is being for big government. the reality is there needs to be enforcement, this is going to be a state or federal duty. unless you think it should be done by haliburton, then it's also big government as far as the actual costs go.

asset protection has no place in a free market if it's someone else's asset and it's of little value to you. if there were no regulations at all and no liability for anything which is exactly what republicans claim to want just imagine the things that would happen daily. even now these companies figure if a accident turns out to be cheaper than actually following safety protocol they will often opt to let a accident happen. usually the public picks up the bill anyway.

in a economy based on the family farm that large banks and corporations don't exist and small ones have no way to lobby, free market theory would probably actually work to some extent.

[bobdea]

btw, interestingly enough even the damage of a spill this huge, wasn’t all that bad relitively speaking for considering that according to the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, “natural oil seeps contribute the highest amount of oil to the marine environment, accounting for 46 per cent of the annual load to the world’s oceans.” That's right, crude oil IS natural.

no **** sherlock

so is mercury, asbestos, arsenic and lead but dumping high consetrations these things that are almost never seen that concentrated in nature is what tends to cause disasters like this and there are natural disasters as well, but we cause these major oil spills not seepage.

yes, I've seen tarballs on beaches and realized they were likely from natural seepage.

you win the prize for village idiot of the day.

at the same time much of the left was trying to blame the failed Times Sqaure bombing on the "Tea-Party"

according to who? Rush limbaugh? I missed this somehow and I read alternet, huffpo, AP and a few others daily.

[BobD]

at the same time much of the left was trying to blame the failed Times Sqaure bombing on the "Tea-Party"

Limbaugh, Bachmann, and the rest of the Goebbels crew, long a go learned that if you say something often enough, there are plenty of simpletons who will believe anything. The Dems don't have a propaganda wing like that, because stupid claims don't work with their supporters.

This was last year, and I think the percentages are lower now.

"A whopping 58 percent of Republicans either think Barack Obama wasn't born in the US (28 percent) or aren't sure (30 percent). A mere 42 percent think he was."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0709/58_of_GOP_not_suredont_beleive_Obama_born_in_US.html

[scrapster]

no **** sherlock

so is mercury, asbestos, arsenic and lead but dumping high consetrations these things that are almost never seen that concentrated in nature

So is chicken ****, and that, in high concentrations, has been one of the major contaminants of the Chesapeake Bay.

The problem with Petrol's natural oil seepage analogy is that, in the Gulf, you're playing a man-made game of roulette with a highly sensitive area. The natural oil seepage off the coast of California has likely been there for eons, and the area's ecology has adjusted accordingly--also over eons. Humans rely on the Gulf NOW for food and employment. I'd also argue that natural communities have a heck of a lot fewer habitable places to re-locate and re-establish themselves these days.

And yes, the Persian Gulf spill/sabotage did damage, though luckily not as much as it could have. We also know of oil spills that did much more damage given a different set of variables. It seems silly to predict one outcome more than another based on something as arbitrary as one's political persuasion. The risk for great damage in the current spill is there and very real.

In regard to energy consumption, unfortunately, I think most Americans would ultimately accept a dead Gulf rather than above $5 a gallon gas prices. Its an attitude that will bite us in the end, but hey, we have to learn somehow.

[heroshmero]

I think most Americans would ultimately accept a dead Gulf rather than above $5 a gallon gas prices. Its an attitude that will bite us in the end, but hey, we have to learn somehow.

Sadly, I agree.

I think that attitude goes hand in hand with the attitude that our energy needs will never be met with renewable energy sources. It's another day lost towards diversifying our energy production.

There is absolutely no reason that we shouldn't have solar panels, wind generators and micro hydro sprinkled all over this nation. We can absolutely augment our current power needs and reduce the need for oil and coal fired electricity generation.

For instance, why don't skyscrapers have wind generators built into the top of them? There's plenty of wind up there at the top. Why are we not capturing as much renewable energy as possible?

[Dan]

For instance, why don't skyscrapers have wind generators built into the top of them? There's plenty of wind up there at the top. Why are we not capturing as much renewable energy as possible?

Like <a href="http://www.indigo12west.com/images/slideshows/energy3.jpg">this</a>? :)

This is the roof of a building here in Portland that was built with a heavy emphasis on conservation/efficiency: there's solar water heating, roof turbines, and a rainwater catchment system: http://www.indigo12west.com/energy.php

I think that this kind of construction doesn't yet pay for itself in savings on energy/water, and that's why it's relatively uncommon, and when you do see it, it's a niche/premium offering. It would take punitive taxes on non-renewable forms of energy to drive this country to pursue renewable sources seriously, and that's not going to happen, at least not anytime soon.

[Alaskan Rover]

...//....It would take punitive taxes on non-renewable forms of energy to drive this country to pursue renewable sources seriously, and that's not going to happen, at least not anytime soon.

I wonder why punitive taxation of non-renewable forms of energy WOULDN'T work??? It makes perfect sense. I think we have to realize, as many here have said before, that there are ADDITIONAL, hidden charges to relying on fossil-fuels.

1) It merely enforces a 'status quo" mentality, whereby if there continues lots of readily available fossil-fuel sources, there is a lessened need and desire to invest in and research alternative, renewable, ecologically-safe sources of energy.

2)The potential for environmental diasters is far greater with fossil-fuels.

3)Continuing to rely on cheaply available fossil-fuels has an additive, daily impact on our atmosphere, leading to aggregate particulate toxity syndromes in various heavily polluted cities due to continuously breathing smog; and problems with 'greenhouse' gassing and other atmospheric anomolies...not mention environmental degradation such as mountain-top removal mining and strip-mining, etc, etc.

SURE...let's HAVE punitive taxation on non-renewable resource use. I'd LOVE to see it!...and yes, I would gladly pay more...and I would in turn, find ways to stop using so much fuel.

As long as fossil-fuel remains CHEAP (comparatively)...the problems will never end, and the status quo will simply continue.

I would also like to see homes and companies and stores TAXED on the WEIGHT of the garbage that they throw away. That alone, would go along way in quickly reducing the ever-increasing amount of packaging that is being used, and hence the amount of garbage we throw away.

If we are TAXED on what we throw away, that would be great. Of course, I think people would then start dumping in the woods...so we'd have to make illegal dumping a felony. I'd be in favor of that, too.

[Steve Prokopiw]

punitive taxes have not stopped the most inconsiderate of all societal scourges...cigarrette smokers. The taxation would have to go toward mitigation of damage and development of alternatives to do any good.

[heroshmero]

I think that this kind of construction doesn't yet pay for itself in savings on energy/water

Of course it does. It may not be enough to meet the entire electricity demand for the building but it will absolutely pay for itself.

For instance, the payoff point for solar hot water is about 5 years. The payoff point for solar electric (pv solar) is about 30 years. I'm trying to find figures for wind generators but have not been able to. I believe that the payoff point for wind generators is about 10 years.

[Petrol]

I wonder why punitive taxation of non-renewable forms of energy WOULDN'T work??? It makes perfect sense. blah blah blah eco justice blah blah social justice blah blah alternative blah renewable blah blah impact on our atmosphere blah blah 'greenhouse' blah and so much more anti American dumbazz socialism fecal matter blah blah I would also like to see homes and companies and stores TAXED on the WEIGHT of the garbage that they throw away blah blah If we are TAXED blah blah I'd be in favor of that, too.

now if only you could get the chi-coms, russians, indians and tin horn dictators of the world to go along with your designs, we could all live happily ever after... those of us that survive

btw, I take it that none of you give a damn about central Tennessee

[softbootsurfer]

now if only you could get the chi-coms, russians, indians and tin horn dictators of the world to go along with your designs, we could all live happily ever after... those of us that survive

btw, I take it that none of you give a damn about central Tennessee

[Petrol]

we've no need for soros funded tides produced leftist propaganda

[photodad2001]

We keep getting closer to this every year. The US is not the same country it was 30 years ago.

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[Dan]

Of course it does. It may not be enough to meet the entire electricity demand for the building but it will absolutely pay for itself.

For instance, the payoff point for solar hot water is about 5 years. The payoff point for solar electric (pv solar) is about 30 years. I'm trying to find figures for wind generators but have not been able to. I believe that the payoff point for wind generators is about 10 years.

Correct, it does eventually pay for itself. What I should have said is that "the payoff times are too long to be attractive to most property owners/developers". 30 years for PV solar, when the building tenants -- not the developer -- are typically responsible for energy bills, is a losing proposition. My company (market research) has been doing a fair amount of work around utilities and energy efficiency, and things that commercial building owners are typically willing to pay for are items with about a 5 year payback time, where savings go to the building owner. That would be common area lighting, or boiler systems that heat the whole building (i.e., heat is covered as part of the rent, rather than tenants paying it separately). When tenants pay the bills, there is very little interest in energy efficiency improvements.

The same goes for the vast majority of homeowners -- 30-year payback on PV when you don't know if you'll be in the house that long is a tough sell. Tankless water heaters pay off in about 10 years here, but their lifespan is about 10 years, so after you consider time value of money, it's a losing proposition, etc.

Long story short, currently incentives are not aligned to support energy efficient choices/uptake of renewable energy, and individuals have to be uncommonly far-sighted to swallow the upfront costs required to get the long term savings, not a common attribute here these days. I personally would love to see punitive taxes on non-renewable sources of energy, but it's political suicide, right up there with cutting Social Security, and I don't see any politician mustering up the cojones to back such a proposal.

[Alaskan Rover]

Photodad,

What the HEEL movie was that clip from??? I'm just asking so that I'll know not to watch it. I know Stallone did some fantastically bad acting in his time, but that was probably among the worst acting I've seen.

I think I only saw decent acting from Stallone in ONE movie, 'Tango and Cash'. He was nominated for Worst Actor award nine consecutive years from 1984 to 1992.

He does deserve his 'star' on Hollywood Blvd, though...just for the original Rocky. He wrote the film himself, marched it around Hollywood, to quite a few closed doors, but persevered against almost every odd, just like his main character, and got it done. The film went on to win three Oscars including best picture, pushing him quickly to icon status. He deserves a star for that feat, alone...but NOT for his acting talent. In short, he ain't no Dustin Hoffman.

[heroshmero]

Dan, you make good points. I guess my frustrations are more focused on our government owned buildings. As I said in a previous post, I watched Bend build a new police station and can't understand why a building like that does not have solar panels on the roof. Don't we expect it to be there for more than 30 years?

Alaskan, the movie is Demolition Man.

[bobdea]

btw, I take it that none of you give a damn about central Tennessee

stop trying to change the subject. we all do, that's a different issue.

do you have a way to spin this in to a broad sweeping conspiracy by pinkos?

[Dan]

As I said in a previous post, I watched Bend build a new police station and can't understand why a building like that does not have solar panels on the roof. Don't we expect it to be there for more than 30 years?

I agree 100% on that -- both surprising and disappointing. If not PV solar, what about solar hot water? That ought to pay off much more quickly...if even Bend can't muster enough support for forward-thinking municipal construction like that, the rest of the US is out of luck.

[boarderboy]

now if only you could get the chi-coms, russians, indians and tin horn dictators of the world to go along with your designs, we we could all live happily ever after... those of us that survive

I have (in some of their worst times), and I'll wager you haven't.

Not that travel necessarily alters the perspective or worldview of the traveller. (I doubt your take on energy matters would be dented by a total immersion baptism in 30 feet of coal ash...)

Here's the thing, though. If WE don't start acting responsibly, VERY FEW COUNTRIES WILL.

However, the "ChiComs", as you call them, are the exception. Though quite dirty now, they've figured out that an energy-efficient future is in their best interest, and that cornering the market on exportable green energy technology is REALLY in their best interest. And they're taking steps to do it!

So we have a couple of choices. We can keep chanting "Drill Baby Drill" aka "Spill Baby Spill!, we can keep blocking strong incentives for energy conservation and technology innovation in our own country, and we can keep on pointing our fingers at developing nations that will supposedly outstrip us (at what I'm not sure) if we commit to carbon-stingy energy independence for ourselves. (And, oh yeah, we can keep allowing our government-paid, supposed extractive industry regulators to literally sleep, booze, and schmooze, with Big E(nergy's) lobbyists and hookers.)

Or we can do the right thing.

I'm betting on the former.

And what a pity that so many apologists for our petro-piggish present seem to have been born with two thumbs but only one anus...

Such a terrible waste!

BB