Say a prayer...

[bjvircks]

I've been increasingly depressed by the total big picture. Oil is only a part of many different despoilments that are picking up pace. Spawing grounds and fisheries are being turned into dead zones by industrial feedlot and fertilizer runoff at the deltas of all major rivers. Destruction of crucial rainforest is accelerating. The extinction of many, many 'trivial' flora and fauna is rapidly decreasing crucial biodiversity on a large scale. Mountain-top and open pit mining ravages the countryside, upsets drainage and disrupts all living things.

Here is an interesting aspect of global warming. Imagine in the mountains a sub-ecosystem that has developed to exist within a narrow elevation range, say between 5,000 ft and 7,000 ft. The plants, animals, soils, ground moisture, airborne moisture, sunlight, etc have all developed a delicate, intertwined balance over thousands of years. Global warming is now increasing the temperatures and changing the moisture patterns in the zone to be like the zone below. Many of the plants, animals, soils etc cannot change themselves quickly enough to continue to exist and so the nature and balance of the sub-ecosystem changes dramatically. And even those that can adapt quickly eventually will find the 'zone' they need to exist in has been driven ABOVE the top of the mountains and into oblivion.

Sorry for such a pessimistic rant. Unfortunately, I see no end whatsoever. I hurt for my children and their children's children.

[heroshmero]

Sorry for such a pessimistic rant. Unfortunately, I see no end whatsoever. I hurt for my children and their children's children.

The really sad part is that in the US we are getting close to zero help from the federal government on the issue of renewable energy. The global warming debate aside it seems very easy to demonstrate the advantages that renewable energy sources provide.

Wind will blow and sun will shine until the end of time. Oil will run out and in the process will get more expensive and more sought after. Seems like any self respecting country with the monetary and knowledge resources that we have would put their efforts into establishing renewable energy as a significant part of its energy production (like Germany is doing, for instance).

The US has its head in the sand thinking that we will be able to buy and fight our way to all the rest of the oil on the planet. It's truly sad.

[bobdea]

The really sad part is that in the US we are getting close to zero help from the federal government on the issue of renewable energy. The global warming debate aside it seems very easy to demonstrate the advantages that renewable energy sources provide.

Wind will blow and sun will shine until the end of time. Oil will run out and in the process will get more expensive and more sought after. Seems like any self respecting country with the monetary and knowledge resources that we have would put their efforts into establishing renewable energy as a significant part of its energy production (like Germany is doing, for instance).

The US has its head in the sand thinking that we will be able to buy and fight our way to all the rest of the oil on the planet. It's truly sad.

okay, I agree but there's a reality that I hate here. wind and solar could never meet our current energy needs or even come close. so, then you have to look at other sources, only thing that would even come close is nuclear, we know the problems with that but to be honest it must be part of the solution. what we really need to do is focus on reducing our energy consumption. green buildings, smaller cars and more sensible appliances. that means smaller, tighter, colder in the winter, cooler showers, smaller cars and PASSIVE solar systems. using fertilizers not made from oil, less plastics, more local foods, people not using AC when it's hot, turning off your ****ing night light, unplugging anything that has a standby mode, smaller TVs and simplifying associated cable boxes,DVRs and the associated audio gear, driving less, the return of the train to rural america, commuting by bus or rail, repairing things instead of treating just about everything as disposable(this also requires manufacturers to makes stuff that's actually servicible), eating less meat, watching less TV, instead of buying tupperware reusing those 5 yoghurt containers you're gonna throw away tomorrow, grow you own (apply that any way you want, in most situations there a huge energy savings), if you have a wood stove or just about any type of furnace put a hot water coil in it, grow a set and drink icky city water instead of bottled because municipal water is typically safer anyway, carpool, cook less, actually eat leftovers, eat seasonally, remodel less but when you do think about energy savings, carpool even you people in the prius, maybe not give the kids so much junk that needs batteries or not so much junky plastics in the first place. go outside more and enjoy the out doors instead of going shopping for the hell of it, get a vasectomy or find another way to not breed, after you get the vasectomy **** more so you're doing less of the bad things I already mentioned, instead of going to target for a new set of plates and silverware buy it at a yard sale or flea market second hand, wash your clothes less, use a clothesline even in the winter, get rid of the dishwasher and finally less long winded late night posts on BOL when you should be sleeping.

[heroshmero]

Good points bobdea. It's true that it would take a huge amount of pv solar and wind to meet our electricity needs. But, imagine if all new government buildings had to have pv solar and solar hot water on their roofs. Moves like that would make a huge dent in the demand and help to decentralize the grid.

I watched them build a brand new police station here in Bend and wondered why they didn't cover the roof with solar panels. I know they are an expensive addition and the payback on pv solar is about 30 years. So, don't we expect that a new police station will be there for more than 30 years? Don't we want to save money in the long run? Don't we want to be a producer of power that is independent instead of simply a consumer that is dependent?

[lowrider]

In Canada Ontario hydro produces nuclear power for 1.5 cents per KWH solar deal signed by Provincial Gov't will pay independents around 80 cents per KWH. I would like to be greener but can we afford it ???

[Jack M]

We did a study at UNH engineering school to see how many windmills it would take to equal the power output of Seabrook NH's nuclear plant. Assuming a 75 foot wingspan, spaced 25 feet apart, a single row of windmills erected on the coastline would stretch from New Hampshire to Virginia.

I like the idea of windfarms as a supplement, but they're not the answer.

The answer, imo, is fuel cells and pebble bed reactors. PBR's are said to be self-extinguishing if left untended, so they can't melt down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor

[heroshmero]

I like the idea of windfarms as a supplement, but they're not the answer.]

Not to single you out Jack, but I have to bring up the problem with thinking that there is an "answer". We are setting ourselves up for the same problem we are in now if we limit our options by thinking that there is an "answer". Big oil and coal is our current "answer". Let's not trade that for another "answer" like nuclear power.

The solution has to come as part of decentralizing the grid and creating power more locally. That will have to be done with a number of sources. Use wind where it's windy. Use solar where it's sunny. Use fuel cells where those would make sense. Use hydro where there is falling water. Etc...

We have to get off this idea that there is one thing that will save us.

In Canada Ontario hydro produces nuclear power for 1.5 cents per KWH solar deal signed by Provincial Gov't will pay independents around 80 cents per KWH. I would like to be greener but can we afford it ???

I realize that it is pv solar is expensive intitially but when you hit that payback point its all profit.

Nuclear power has hidden costs that people aren't talking about. What about storage of nuclear waste for hundreds of years to come? Who pays for that? Huge amounts of that cost is being payed for by the government/tax payers and will continue to be an expense way into the future. Pv solar will pay itself off in 30 years and then it is a profit center.

It's the inability to think 30 years into the future that is going to bury us. Our elected officials only seem interested in thinking about what can happen before the next election and our business only seem interested in thinking about posting profits in the next quarter.

We have to change the way we think about the future and what would be a worthwhile investment in that future.

[Jack M]

Not to single you out Jack, but I have to bring up the problem with thinking that there is an "answer". ...

The solution has to....

solution, answer, magic wand, whatever.

Our elected officials only seem interested in thinking about what can happen before the next election

Our elected officials are only interested in being re-elected. The answer there is a single term limit, and a 6 year presidency.

[heroshmero]

solution, answer, magic wand, whatever.

My point is that if we turn to nuclear as our primary source of electricity we are going to end up in the same situation we are in now. We will continue to pollute the plant with nuclear waste and the nuclear power companies will grow in influence and lobby just like the oil companies have.

Mining for nuclear material and dealing with nuclear waste are very resource intensive and expensive. Wind and sun are free. Even if that line of wind generators stretched from New Hampshire to Virginia it would continue to produce power for a very long period of time, at a profit and with almost zero waste. The same can not be said of nuclear.

In my opinion, we have to harness electricity generation from things that are truly renewable like wave power, geothermal, hydro, solar, wind, etc. All these forces continue to occur on our planet regardless of whether we pump oil out of the ground or extract nuclear material out of the ground. We are missing the fact that there is a tremendous amount of available power that can be captured from renewable sources and in the long run they will be cheaper.

[bobdea]

as well as thorium. less dangerous and more efficient

[bobdea]

found the depleted uranium reactor

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22114/?a=f

[scrapster]

Hate to burst Petrol's reality bubble, but evidently Prince Edward is far from recovered after Valdez. This just out today: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/us/06alaska.html?hpw

The herring and dungeness crab fisheries are gone.

As for the Chesapeake Bay--an area where I used to live and work--its taken strong govt. regulations and billions of dollars worth of recovery efforts to start turning around the blue crab and oyster populations. So, I guess I don't see your point.

As for nuclear--big risk/big reward. That about sums it up.

[Rob Stevens]

It's pictures like the ones that SBS posted that really get to me. I guess I'm a soft touch when it comes to animals.

If it were up to us to kill a cow for our meat, there would be a few more vegetarians than there are now. If I had to take a Pelican and immerse it in oil until it died so I could get the keys to my car back, I would likely ride my bike to work for a long time before I could get up the stomach to take its life like that.

We are just so disconnected from the realities of how things are sourced that we have no desire for change.

Bob Dea's post about how we could live less impactfully is not just a recipe for austerity, but rather one for a life that could be MORE fulfilling. Interestingly, this lifestyle shift does not require anything different with regards to how we get our energy, we would simply need much less of it. I appreciate his efforts in mapping that out for us. You're a thoughtful guy, BD... Just not when you talk to the high angle softbooters.

Its discussions like this that will, one day, make a difference in our own little corner of the world. What scares me is the developing world. We are in no position to tell them to be more environmentally sensitive when lifting their nations out of poverty and, one day, when everyone in India and China has a scooter, a colour tv and a microwave, we'd better have it figured out, because in the present model, this egalitarian setup will just wreck the joint.

[ak_rider]

Anyone who thinks prince william sound is completely recovered is dillussional! you can go to cordova right now and dig down in the rocks on the coastline and still find oil. apparently pressure washing oil off of rocks doesn't really clean the coast, it just cleans the surface of the rocks. On the bright side of that spill, we now take more precautions to prevent another such disaster. There have been oil spills in that area since 1989, but it gets contained now, and it doesn't reach the shore. Too bad this does nothing for the situation in the gulf, since it wasn't a tanker that caused the oil spill.

Maybe this will lead to stricter regulations, but that in turn would need to lead to people actually enforcing the regulations. Fat chance given our current leaders in Washington DC. And I'm not just refering to the president and congress. Everyone is in big oil's pocket.

Someone mentioned the billions in dollars that exxon had to pay. Slight correction, Exxon was initially fined about $5billion-approx. their revenues for 1 year. Exxon spent many years and several millions of dollars appealing this. basically it went from $5bill appealed down to $4BILL, then appealed again, went back up to $4.5bill. Then Exxon pulled out all the stops, and went straight to the US Supreme court. Those geniuouses decided that $4.5bill exceeded maritime law limits, and dropped it down to about $507 mill.(and this was done just a few years ago. These people are still sitting on the bench). So far Exxon has paid about 75% of that and are claiming that they don't owe interest on the money. Apparently the people in Washington think a year's revenues is too much to ask of a company whose gross negligence caused the accident and who didn't pay to clean up the oil. The initial clean-up was done by an independent co.

Big Oil has this country right where they want it, and there's nothing we can do about it. we need oil for everything. Even if we all drove electric cars, you need lubrication to move the parts. Look at how many people in this country make a living from big oil. Their wages, in turn, get dispersed to just about every other sector in the country.

There's no way we can completely get away from it. I think we should focus on how to make it safer and prevent further natural disasters like prince william sound and the gulf from happening again. This seems like a more productive use of energy rather than trying to think of ways to become completely independent of oil. Although I wouldn't be upset if the number of snowmachiners/atv-ers were to dwindle

[bjvircks]

We are just so disconnected from the realities of how things are sourced that we have no desire for change.

well said!

I am fully convinced that about 99.9% of people are completely delusional when it comes to their concept of our country's energy consumption. The combined outputs of the renewable energy systems currently in use, if fully developed, (with the exceptions of hydro and geothermal) would never amount to more than flinging a drinking glass of water at a full-up forest fire. Eventually we will need safe nuclear power. I haven't heard anything recently regarding progress on fusion, which I guess would produce safe waste products. Maybe the coal and oil people are killing off the research? :rolleyes::D:rolleyes:

[b0ardski]

first off, my prayer for the wildlife is a prayer for all the fisheries and the livelihoods that were created bringing deliciousness to our tables. A lot of those jobs won't be coming back:(

Wastefulness is inherent in our "I want it now" 24/7 society, but little things like actually using the on/off switch on our ever-present surge protectors add up. We turn the lights off when we leave or go to bed but the entertainment center & computer desk use more juice than a couple lighbulbs.

True that green power is a tiny percentage of overall usage but any reduction in demand should not just be embraced, but pursued & developed like our future depends on that reduction.

I can't help but wonder how many remote shutoff caps profits from 50,000 barrels a day of crude and the now decimated gulf fishing industry would have paid for, not to mention cleanup costs.

I doubt that retrofitting caps on existing wells is even possible, drilling a well without one should never happen again:smashfrea kinda like single hulled tankers.

[Petrol]

much of this does have to do with dubya and his people

:lol:and out comes the the loony 'when in doubt, blame bush' contingent...

yep, you got it... after his project katrina failed, he launched operation slickster

[Petrol]

Hate to burst Petrol's reality bubble, but evidently Prince Edward is far from recovered after Valdez. This just out today: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/us/06alaska.html?hpw

The herring and dungeness crab fisheries are gone.

As for the Chesapeake Bay--an area where I used to live and work--its taken strong govt. regulations and billions of dollars worth of recovery efforts to start turning around the blue crab and oyster populations. So, I guess I don't see your point.

As for nuclear--big risk/big reward. That about sums it up.

1. considering the multitude of lifetimes folks were quoting ANY recovery woul;d have taken, I look upon your leftist ny times article as quite positive...

2. yep, we successfully rehabed the bay. again, a good thing.

3. I 'm not suprised

4. so, with the current political 'leaders' absolute inability to focus on anything other then socialism, looks like you're going to be the first to go completely off the grid then, huh?

[Petrol]

I am fully convinced that about 99.9% of people are completely delusional when it comes to their concept of our country's energy consumption.

much less the perils involved in meeting them

[Petrol]

first off, my prayer for the wildlife is a prayer for all the fisheries and the livelihoods that were created bringing deliciousness to our tables. A lot of those jobs won't be coming back:(

Wastefulness is inherent in our "I want it now" 24/7 society, but little things like actually using the on/off switch on our ever-present surge protectors add up. We turn the lights off when we leave or go to bed but the entertainment center & computer desk use more juice than a couple lighbulbs.

True that green power is a tiny percentage of overall usage but any reduction in demand should not just be embraced, but pursued & developed like our future depends on that reduction.

I can't help but wonder how many remote shutoff caps profits from 50,000 barrels a day of crude and the now decimated gulf fishing industry would have paid for, not to mention cleanup costs.

I doubt that retrofitting caps on existing wells is even possible, drilling a well without one should never happen again:smashfrea kinda like single hulled tankers.

Agreed, on all counts.

[scrapster]

1. considering the multitude of lifetimes folks were quoting ANY recovery woul;d have taken, I look upon your leftist ny times article as quite positive...

2. yep, we successfully rehabed the bay. again, a good thing.

3. I 'm not suprised

4. so, with the current political 'leaders' absolute inability to focus on anything other then socialism, looks like you're going to be the first to go completely off the grid then, huh?

Hmmm. So you agree that all those big brother regulations and redistributed wealth for clean-up and rehab projects were a good thing? You're a hard man to pin down, Petrol. At least you're interesting in your self-contradictions.

Honestly, for all their flaws, I have more hope that the current administration will make some headway on environmental issues than I did for most of the previous ones. That's despite the "socialist" canard its forced to waste its time dodging every day, like so many oil-covered ducks lobbed by a hopelessly jaundiced segment of the population.

As for the Bay. Rehabbed? Done deal? Really? What a relief :rolleyes: I'll call my former colleagues and tell them they can stop working on it.

[davekempmeister]

I would like to point out that as a lifelong Maryland resident in the Chesapeake Bay watershed, the estuary has not been "rehabbed". Not even by Virginia's standards. Yes, that was a swipe.

The Chesapeake is still rife with dead zones, over harvested, out of balance and being bombarded with fertilizers running off of farms and lawns. Anyone that points to the various successful initiatives of recent years as proof that the bay has been "rehabbed" is simply engaging in the same sort of nonsense that politicians are notorious for.

The bay is not healthy, even if it's better than it was.

[bobdea]

:lol:and out comes the the loony 'when in doubt, blame bush' contingent...

yep, you got it... after his project katrina failed, he launched operation slickster

no, I was pointing out specific points regarding big oil and said people. you pulled the old blame all Bush's fails on clinton without naming him.

is this where you also blame 9/11 on something Bubba did in 1998? I specifically posted a article mentioning a culture of corruption at a government body that most people who were Bush appointees are still in place to this day.

betting if I did some research that I'd find that most people in 1994 working in these same government bodies which are supposed to help put the smack down were appointees of Bush 1 or reagan not to play the blame game but to state fact.

Nixon, Carter and to a much much lesser extent Clinton have been the only recent presidents to make any progress on actually getting environmental regulation passed and actually enforcing it. really though I can't even give Clinton that much credit he just did not actively try to undo BIPARTISAN efforts clean up and keep clean our air, land and water in the US. Reagan and Bush II basically set out to let anyone who had a corporate charter to rape the country of any assets we might have for short term gain while at the same time doing anything they could to rob the little guy of any power they still had.

[bobdea]

Agreed, on all counts.

is that sarcasm?

if not, you're basically saying you you don't believe in free markets and that you're a fan of big government.

if you really do agree with his statement you need go join the green party right now and write ralph nader in every time you vote for any public office.

[b0ardski]

first off, my prayer for the wildlife is a prayer for all the fisheries and the livelihoods that were created bringing deliciousness to our tables. A lot of those jobs won't be coming back:(

Wastefulness is inherent in our "I want it now" 24/7 society, but little things like actually using the on/off switch on our ever-present surge protectors add up. We turn the lights off when we leave or go to bed but the entertainment center & computer desk use more juice than a couple lighbulbs.

True that green power is a tiny percentage of overall usage but any reduction in demand should not just be embraced, but pursued & developed like our future depends on that reduction.

I can't help but wonder how many remote shutoff caps profits from 50,000 barrels a day of crude and the now decimated gulf fishing industry would have paid for, not to mention cleanup costs.

I doubt that retrofitting caps on existing wells is even possible, drilling a well without one should never happen again:smashfrea kinda like single hulled tankers.

Agreed, on all counts.

is that sarcasm?

if not, you're basically saying you you don't believe in free markets and that you're a fan of big government.

if you really do agree with his statement you need go join the green party right now and write ralph nader in every time you vote for any public office.

asset protection is something free markets should employ, not sure what that has to do with the excessive size of government.

Pointing out the wastefulness of unused electronics and a desire for multiple sources of "clean" energy seems to rub you the wrong(left?) way bob:rolleyes: