Confused about stiff boots

[inkaholic]

you will have to gain 30#s and change your name to facialhairsaturdaysunday BUT hook up with gleb thru this site and trip to loon some w/e....he is a good kid and good rider and maybe we can help.

your location is boston but home mountain is big sky anyway gleb is in boston going to school......

Meet up with the T32 boys if you get a chance. Cool group of fellas. Also go watch their vid in the video section. good stuff.

Ink

[bobdea]

you will have to gain 30#s and change your name to facialhairsaturdaysunday BUT hook up with gleb thru this site and trip to loon some w/e....he is a good kid and good rider and maybe we can help.

your location is boston but home mountain is big sky anyway gleb is in boston going to school......

yup, just gotta get him to answer his phone

[facialhairtuesday]

I could definitely use the help of a more experienced hardbooter, so I'll definitely get in contact with him. Thanks for the suggestion!

[bobdea]

I could definitely use the help of a more experienced hardbooter, so I'll definitely get in contact with him. Thanks for the suggestion!

hey, I'm in Barre, MA and have a wawa pass if you want to ride wachussett I'll help you out as well

turn on your email or email me and I can get you going as best I can.

[Bobby Buggs]

maybe they purchase their gear from yyzcanuck, who only sells Deeluxe...

maybe they purchased Deeluxe because they were on sale...

maybe they have a narrow foot, which is better suited to the Deeluxe shell...

maybe they bought their boots used, and considering that Raichle/Deeluxe boots saturated the market prior to Head coming to the scene in 2005(?), you are more likely to find used Raichle/Deeluxe boots...

maybe they purchased Deeluxe boots without ever having tried on, let alone ridden another manufacturer's boot...

:)

The last time I did a shell fit on Deeluxe boots, my foot spanned the width of the shell with no side-to-side movement, now add a liner and I would be in agony in a matter of seconds. I wear HSP's because they are the widest last that I have found and I still need to have them stretched.

That said, I have to be cautious that I don't drive my back knee into the snow on every toeside turn that I make. Part of it is I drive my knees hard and flex the boots like crazy, the other part is I tip the board high on edge, which brings my knees closer to the snow.

Dude, we need to have a beer over this before the end of the season:biggthump

Some of that barrage was D-sub esque, please no:nono:

[BlueB]

It's all the matter of personal prefference...

I, for instance, think that Raichle/Deeluxe are garbage...

...

As for the flex of the Heads, I think that stop in forvard motion is not caused by 2 buckles touching, but rather the foundation of the 2nd buckle from top coming to the end of the kidney hole in the cuf. You don't quite get to see that until you removed the buckle in order to widen the kidney hole.

[forrest]

What a convenient post. I've just been out for my first day on UPZ boots after fifteen years of hardboot riding and I've got to wonder what all this nonsense about these being stiff/hard boots is. These things fold up at the drop of a hat. I will admit that I do not have the stiff tongues but even so I find these to be quite soft. I think that they will ultimately work out just fine but stiff they are not.

I ride in Maine so this is not hero snow from out west. If you want the feeling that you can just push and push and push ski boots maybe the only way to get there. I know I'll get an ear full about that but I would share that I aint new to this and I aint half bad at it.

There is very little to compare to the feeling of some nice hard snow and some nice hard boots. I suspect that where ski boots get there bad name in alpine riding is that they are uncompromising. If you are to ride them you must ride them b**ls deep. If you aren't totally committed they are totally s**tty. When you stick it to a pair ski boots you are rewarded with huge power, feel and ease.

I would suggest to anyone wondering about why anyone would go for stiff boots that the next time you are out take a few turns and just lay into the front of your boots with no reservation. Before they fold up like lawn furniture you will have a toe side with some commitment and intention. You'll not be turning by accident but with feeling and enthusiasm.

That said snowboard boots are far more easy to use in varied conditions they just lack that wide open mentality and the ability to be pushed.

[ursle]

I see in your profile you're on OS2's. any boot in them is going to be stiff, you might pick up a pair of used burton or F2 bindings, night and day difference in stiffness on a board, the OS2's allow no lateral movement while the burtons or f2's will feel like rubber bands

jmho

[Sultan Guy]

I love the stiffness of my Deeluxe T700's. I can quickly edge the board and never have any discomfort or movement in my feet or ankles. I really notice the difference when I go back to my softie setup...like a loss of energy or something.

[queequeg]

head stratos pros are really soft, softer than my last pair of deeluxe/raichle boots and WAY softer than my UPZs.

add a BTS and thermoflex to that and you have a really nice soft hard boot that has a amazing range of motion.

My experience is different.

Out of the box, my Heads would not flex forward significantly without a great deal of effort. I had to push forward so hard on them that the leverage caused bruising in my shin *and* my heel. I cannot say the same about my UPZ's, which permit me to flex forward very naturally without much effort, right out of the box.

[facialhairtuesday]

My experience is different.

Out of the box, my Heads would not flex forward significantly without a great deal of effort.

This is the experience I had with them too

Also, I should ask, am I risking damage to the boots by riding with them in walk mode?

[bobdea]

My experience is different.

Out of the box, my Heads would not flex forward significantly without a great deal of effort. I had to push forward so hard on them that the leverage caused bruising in my shin *and* my heel. I cannot say the same about my UPZ's, which permit me to flex forward very naturally without much effort, right out of the box.

????????

was the shell hung up?

volume does come into this though. different boots under different people sometimes behave strange based on what you're doing inside it.

the heads shell will bend for me easily where the UPZ the forward flex will actually deflect me pretty well. the UPZ bottoms out way higher than the other boots too and this is one thing I call stiff about it. it's sort of uncomfortable even because the boot leaves me higher than I want to be on my rear foot.

[bobdea]

This is the experience I had with them too

Also, I should ask, am I risking damage to the boots by riding with them in walk mode?

more ankle damage than anything. maybe invest in a BTS set?

[bumpyride]

This is the experience I had with them too

Also, I should ask, am I risking damage to the boots by riding with them in walk mode?

I've ridden my Raichle 123 for 12 years in ride mode--no damage. Having said that, it would seem prudent to get yourself some BTS and adjust your forward flex, as that seems to be a good compromise.

I will continue to ride in walk mode because it works for me and my son who is 5'8" and 170.

[queequeg]

????????

was the shell hung up?

volume does come into this though. different boots under different people sometimes behave strange based on what you're doing inside it.

the heads shell will bend for me easily where the UPZ the forward flex will actually deflect me pretty well. the UPZ bottoms out way higher than the other boots too and this is one thing I call stiff about it. it's sort of uncomfortable even because the boot leaves me higher than I want to be on my rear foot.

No - shell was not hung up. I could get them to bend as far as I wanted to, it just took tremendous effort and the boots did not flex smoothly. To my mind the problem is a combination of factors that affect this boot adversely:

- Design of the boot lower (the wings in the back that impede forward motion in the cuff).

- Instep strap placement (presses just above the ankle but is anchored to the boot lower). Since your upper ankle is shifting forward somewhat as you bend your knee forward it rams your heel into the heel cup, and puts too much pressure on your ankle. This seems like it would be good for heel hold down (and it is) but it eventually causes bruising to the upper ankle in front, and the back of the heel).

- Crappy built-in forward lean mechanism with very limited range of motion (easily fixed with a BTS).

- Boot cuff is a bit short, providing less leverage against the wings.

Pretty much every person i've seen riding this boot is in the habit of standing very tall in their riding. They don't bend their knees very far at all. I was in this habit as well until I performed surgery on my heads. After I modded them I was pretty happy with them but it turned out that the heel was too wide for me, so I switched to UPZ's (I didn't have any heel lift, but they would shimmy from side to side ... felt weird).

I understand that earlier versions of head boots were a lot softer (Head Stratos [not pro]) and Blax Heidi for example ... are you maybe thinking of those?

[bobdea]

No - shell was not hung up. I could get them to bend as far as I wanted to, it just took tremendous effort and the boots did not flex smoothly. To my mind the problem is a combination of factors that affect this boot adversely:

- Design of the boot lower (the wings in the back that impede forward motion in the cuff).

- Instep strap placement (presses just above the ankle but is anchored to the boot lower). Since your upper ankle is shifting forward somewhat as you bend your knee forward it rams your heel into the heel cup, and puts too much pressure on your ankle. This seems like it would be good for heel hold down (and it is) but it eventually causes bruising to the upper ankle in front, and the back of the heel).

- Crappy built-in forward lean mechanism with very limited range of motion (easily fixed with a BTS).

- Boot cuff is a bit short, providing less leverage against the wings.

Pretty much every person i've seen riding this boot is in the habit of standing very tall in their riding. They don't bend their knees very far at all. I was in this habit as well until I performed surgery on my heads. After I modded them I was pretty happy with them but it turned out that the heel was too wide for me, so I switched to UPZ's (I didn't have any heel lift, but they would shimmy from side to side ... felt weird).

I understand that earlier versions of head boots were a lot softer (Head Stratos [not pro]) and Blax Heidi for example ... are you maybe thinking of those?

I have new stratos pros got them last winter. was riding in them today actually. although I have limited mobility right now due to ankle issues I don't stand really tall in them as compared to my UPZs.

I'm a big dude though. I can easily overcome the plastic in the boot where I find that much harder with the UPZ. two things though to consider with my UPZs and heads in the UPZ I have a injected liner and in the heads I have thermoflexes along with the BTS. so the heads are softened a bit where the UPZs are stiffer than the normal config people run. the thing is that even with a thermoflex in the UPZs I find the heads softer even with the head liners.

with UPZ they seem to bottom out at some point and the shell stops you from going further where with the heads the whole shell deforms. if you can't deform the shell in the heads I can see where you're coming from.

I could have softer shell material than you, I know I have seen some heads that they certainly seemed like they were a different material. the older ones that kind of look like some of the burton boots of the same vintage.

mine are the black ones

my UPZs are the white ones but I also had the red ones that were not as good.

[queequeg]

Wack. I'm sure there is an explanation for the differences between our experiences.

I originally had the heads with the stock liner, but threw it away after just one or two days of riding. Switched to the HPD "speed" liner (the one that was too thin). In both cases the boot felt too stiff, which is to say, It bent easily a little bit, but once the plastic wings started to effect the flex they felt very, very stiff. The HPD liner made the boot feel worse of course because it was so thin, but it did not (significantly soften the boot). I installed the BTS at the same time that I put in the HPD, and then I cut the boots, allowing them to flex as I wanted. After that I switched to the Dalbello liner (and finally my feet were happy, until I realized my heels were too narrow for the Heads).

So I've had the dalbello liner in both the HSP and the UPZ, but I have not had the dalbello liner in the uncut UPZ, so I cannot make a valid comparison that way. Overall I'd say my UPZ's feel way more supportive (and laterally stiff) than the HSP's ever felt to me, but I was not able to flex my ankle forward as easily or to as great an extent with the HSP as with the UPZ. I'm currently using the UPZ with the dalbello liner. The UPZ felt slightly stiffer with the stock liner (and way more painful) but not a lot stiffer, just a bit.

I was thinking it could be a size thing: I'm not a huge guy, but I have fairly strong legs and I weigh about 185. The other factor that I was thinking of that may contribute would be boot size: could it be that different size boots are stiffer/softer than others. If the wings in a larger boot do not extend as far up the cuff as a smaller boot, it stands that they would feel softer - or if a larger boot has a higher cuff it seems like that would make the boot feel softer as well. I'm a mondo 26.

The UPZ definitely seems to use a stiffer plastic, so that may be the difference: it could be that a lighter rider may not be able to easily deform the plastic of the HEADs making them feel very stiff, compared to the UPZ (which despite having harder plastic has more travel in the heel mechanism, and whose forward lean is generally unimpeded by plastic parts) - and a heavier rider may be able to deform the plastic of the heads, making them seem softer while not having quite enough weight to deform the UPZ's stiffer plastic making them seem stiffer ... if I had to guess that is where I would put my money.

[bobdea]

Wack. I'm sure there is an explanation for the differences between our experiences.

I originally had the heads with the stock liner, but threw it away after just one or two days of riding. Switched to the HPD "speed" liner (the one that was too thin). In both cases the boot felt too stiff, which is to say, It bent easily a little bit, but once the plastic wings started to effect the flex they felt very, very stiff. The HPD liner made the boot feel worse of course because it was so thin, but it did not (significantly soften the boot). I installed the BTS at the same time that I put in the HPD, and then I cut the boots, allowing them to flex as I wanted. After that I switched to the Dalbello liner (and finally my feet were happy, until I realized my heels were too narrow for the Heads).

So I've had the dalbello liner in both the HSP and the UPZ, but I have not had the dalbello liner in the uncut UPZ, so I cannot make a valid comparison that way. Overall I'd say my UPZ's feel way more supportive (and laterally stiff) than the HSP's ever felt to me, but I was not able to flex my ankle forward as easily or to as great an extent with the HSP as with the UPZ. I'm currently using the UPZ with the dalbello liner. The UPZ felt slightly stiffer with the stock liner (and way more painful) but not a lot stiffer, just a bit.

I was thinking it could be a size thing: I'm not a huge guy, but I have fairly strong legs and I weigh about 185. The other factor that I was thinking of that may contribute would be boot size: could it be that different size boots are stiffer/softer than others. If the wings in a larger boot do not extend as far up the cuff as a smaller boot, it stands that they would feel softer - or if a larger boot has a higher cuff it seems like that would make the boot feel softer as well. I'm a mondo 26.

The UPZ definitely seems to use a stiffer plastic, so that may be the difference: it could be that a lighter rider may not be able to easily deform the plastic of the HEADs making them feel very stiff, compared to the UPZ (which despite having harder plastic has more travel in the heel mechanism, and whose forward lean is generally unimpeded by plastic parts) - and a heavier rider may be able to deform the plastic of the heads, making them seem softer while not having quite enough weight to deform the UPZ's stiffer plastic making them seem stiffer ... if I had to guess that is where I would put my money.

I concur. also, I know that shell parts fit a range of boots which could mean you get the same upper as I do or whatever also shell thickness often does not vary so smaller sizes can be stiffer. seen this with ski boots. betting SBs are the same. I know skipuppy had stiff boots but I don't remember what boot she was in.

[lonbordin]

queequeg weighs ~73% of what bobdea weighs so I would suspect the 70lb (32kg) difference might be of importance here.

[queequeg]

Shell parts fit a range of boots which could mean you get the same upper as I do or whatever also shell thickness often does not vary so smaller sizes can be stiffer. seen this with ski boots. betting SBs are the same.

The plastic thickness is not something that had occurred to me - that seems like it would make a smaller boot much stiffer to be sure.

There are some things I am not crazy about with the heads (instep strap design), but one thing I dig about them is: given the design of the wing thingy, it is easy to mod the boots to make them softer - and it's a lot easier to make a stiff boot soft than to make a soft boot stiff. So even though they only have one boot in their lineup it can be made to satisfy a variety of support needs.

[Dave ESPI]

We all have similar yet vastly different experiences with equipment.

I have tried all the boots except UPZ.

I absolutely love my bone stock-Head Stratos Pros, and it compliments my ride style nicely.

Perhaps I may add a BTS to them*, but only if I can find more info as to how this one guy flush-mounted the shocks by drilling the back of the shell, but I call Shennegains on it as a Photoshop pic........ but then again, it could be possible.....

I just locked my boots in a perma-lean position, and love the fit with some nice wool Carhardt boot cut socks

* and shaved shins... just when I wannahgofast !

[D.T.]

Dude, we need to have a beer over this before the end of the season:biggthump

no 'tude meant, just saying I doubt most people here have had the opportunity to try multiple brands of boots.

Some of that barrage was D-sub esque, please no:nono: