My day at Keystone with Mountain Watch and Patrol

[balboajeff]

"

Mr. Simpson, I'm writing in regards to present state of Alpine Snowboarding at Keystone.I've recently stumbled on a thread on Bomberonline.com which tells the story of local man's recent expierence at Keystone. This fellow recalls a run-in with Mountain Patrol that I find distressing as an alpine rider( I'm also a Telemark skier ) , I wondered given the apparent preponderance of evidence presented by this man if there is some piece of information about Alpine Snowboarding at Keystone that I should be in possession of, as I'm planning a family vacation for spring break. Keystone is an option, as well as other central Co. destinations. I'd love to bring my alpine board to Keystone , but I'm a bit hesitant, given the story mentioned above.I know Keystone is a world class resort and I would relish the opportunity to sample some of the fine grooming and trail selection the mountain offers. Thank you in advance for your time, Best Regards, Jeff xxxxxxx "</PRE>

I would encourage you all to write to Mr. Simpson, but please be respectful, you get what you give. Let's make this about money, that always seems to get folks attention.</PRE>

[jp1]

has anyone that sent an email to Keystone received a reply? I sent an email (very civil) 3 weeks ago with no reply. But then again I don't really expect one, specially after hearing 'Round II, The Meeting'..........

[Wun]

by the way, i think his name is Simson.

[Kimo]

I believe Flounder was being very specific about a small percentage of the people in these populations and not generalizing about all members of these populations as a whole. I think he makes a very good points describing these individuals and I know every one out there has had run ins with said individuals. I know I have.

[carvedog]

Maybe you guys slightly misinterpreted? Maybe not :)

At least, the way I perceived it, Flounder was referring solely to those that can be defined by the latter category that JohnO'Brien outlined, regardless of how abundant they are in any given ski patrol community.

Nah I don't think I misinterpreted anything. Flounder is a troll and I bit. I had just forgotten how much until I looked at a few posts. Nothing positive, not even much fun. Mostly just bashing one thing or another. Never stoke. Never about riding. Sorry to take up the bandwidth but the guy's pretty much just a troll. I wonder if he even rides.

Flounder's Avatar

Flounder Flounder is offline

Skidder

another one jumps on the wussy wagon

don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Flounder Flounder is offline

Skidder

Vapor, check this out... if you stare at the blue part and not the red of the bomberonline.com logo in the corner, it actually spells out gullible

Flounder's Avatar

Flounder Flounder is offline

Skidder

Bordy,

Is this the part where you storm out of here and never come back? Again?

Flounder Flounder is offline

Skidder

Nice guys, who's with me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisling

uh. who are you? and what gives you the right to in essence call me a tramp? because i have a tattoo? if i wanted an opinion on how to attract a$$holes i'd ask you.

Typical woman - asking questions you don't want answers to. You came here looking for advice, so I'm givin' it to you straight. I didn't call you a tramp, I called your tatoo a tramp-stamp because that's what it is. http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=tramp+stamp. Maybe you didn't realize that when you got it. How is it working for you? Nice guys generally aren't interested in introducing chicks with tramp-stamps to their mother, which is what nice guys generally do before they'll consider getting serious with you1. Don't get me wrong, nice guys are interested in admiring your tramp-stamp from the proper, intended perspective (wink), but don't expect anything lasting. Nice guys generally on ly get real serious with women they think they could potentially marry. Nice guys generally want to marry women they think will be good mothers for their children. And we sure as sh!t don't want to see tramp-stamps on our daughters.

This might be something he quoted from Dr. Phil. Ha.

This isn't------

Flounder Flounder is offline

Skidder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michelle

She said "i'm tired of dating a$$holes. you guys are all such sweethearts where can i meet a nice guy for once? "

For starters, Aisling, have the tramp-stamp removed.

Flounder Flounder is offline

Skidder

A good friend of mine, until he was 17, thought that girls went #1 and #2 from the same place.

Flounder Flounder is offline

Skidder

1989 called... they want their graphics back.

__________________

big signatures suck.

[Michelle]

I thought you all would appreciate this Page 2 article in our local paper (the Summit Daily) today....

Happy Reading!

Here's a link to the E-edition article so you can actually read it (scroll to page A2-A3). Let the letters to the Editor begin!

http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20100104/NEWS/100109954&parentprofile=

Coincidence that this was published in our paper just a very short time after the incident happened? I THINK NOT.....but that's just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions :rolleyes:

[carvedog]

Coincidence that this was published in our paper just a very short time after the incident happened? I THINK NOT.....but that's just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions :rolleyes:

He sounds so nice in the article.

[John Gilmour]

"I remember as I stepped outside the building I had this feeling like I had just avoided being mugged. Strangest meeting with professionals I have ever had."

- snipped from Fin's post meeting Keystone safety staff.

It is hard to imagine a sport that you might want to get involved in that would ultimately leave you with this feeling other than being from Manahttan playing handball in the handball courts in Upper Harlem in the 1970's with the highly skilled locals (been there done that...uggghhhh)....same feeling..

Bubble and speed.

I try to maintain a huge bubble... ideally 100-500 feet when I ride (look at my Avatar for instance- there is no one around me) .. harder to do in Summit county than Aspen (yet still not hard if you pay attention) ,,,,, No person around you= no collisions... actually the hardest place to do this is Vail.. where the rule of Downhill skier having right of way is constantly violated by skiers flanking you on both sides .

Something ALL ski patrol should be aware of....

If ski patrol creates an avoidable situation where a snowboarder can not maintain speed and comes to a stop and has to unclip and push......

They are promoting accidents.

Plain and simple....

This is not arguable at all. period.

1. If you come to a stop you are no longer a skier, you are an obstacle...and one that is clogging the trail, and forcing the traffic to avoid you and change flow erratically to avoid you.

2. If you are forced to unclip (by unclipping the back foot only leaving your front foot in as most snowboarders have been taught according to PSIA)... your knees and ankles are now much more at risk in a collision. (NOTE: it is the opposite for skiers whose ankles are now less at risk as well as their knees while unclipped from their bindings- so MANY ski patroller skiers may not understand this) Uncliped snowboarders and skiers are cause foot postings in soft snow (skiers make worse ones) - and unclipped snowboarders move in a manner that most skiers are not familiar with on the trail.

3. Also if you are stopped or moving slowly unclipped you can not avoid an out of control skier... you become "a sitting duck".

I explain to carvers when I ride that your most vulnerable time on the slope is not when you are initiating a turn at your highest speed...

...it is when you come to the end of your turn and are stopping such as when you burn off lots of speed or are carving uphill to stop.

When you are moving at 5mph... you have little ability to avoid someone...particularly if your speed is decreasing from 5mph to zero.

Which is why,,,, paradoxically.... I find most carving snowboarder/skier to skier/snowboarder collisions occur at relatively low speeds when the carver snowboarder/skier (yes it includes carving skiers too!) is coming to a stop. He has the least amount of manuverability and balance at this point and can not avoid an out of control skier. too bad...because if the carving snowboarder/skier has speed- his maneuverability is excellent.

IMHO Fin was traveling at a rate of speed which would have enabled him to avoid nearly any skier that was penetrating his "bubble of safety".

Had Fin been going 5mph, he would not have been able to avoid a skier going 15mph that was out of control and coming towards him.

Seeing that Fin has an extremely high level of riding competance... it was to all UNCONTROLLABLE (lesser skilled) SKIER'S SAFETY ADVANTAGE for Fin to be carrying the speed he was to enable Fin to avoid collisions.

Seeing that Fin is on a Beginner/family run.. where there would certainly be a higher percentage number of lesser skilled skiers..... Fin is making their skiing experience safer by attentively staying completely out of their way, yet still maintaining enough speed without being reckless or excessive to be able to avoid ALL OF THEM.

In that same vein..... that skier (on the right) who is traveling at the same rate of speed... is also not a real threat.. but should be doing as Fin is doing... isolating himself from the crowd if going at a slightly higher rate of speed. The one doing an aerial.. (Missed that one) obviously should not be doing that since it can lead to an unexpected fall and subsequent collision... (Unless he was avoiding an obstacle like a rocks..)

It can certainly be UNDERSTOOD that any skier on 220cm skis on a beginner trail going 5mph.... can not avoid others effectively (think of the sidecut radii) at that speed....and should be allowed to go a bit faster to the point of reasonable maneuverability for his gear- for the safety benefit of all. Fin's sidecut radii would certainly put him in a similar class.

One last thing....

When it is pointed out that I am wrong ... I realize when I am corrected...

I will learn something :o.

That (learning) will help me make better decisions in the future and improve my cognitive abilities and assist me to help others make better decisions as well.:)

The fact that the head of ski patrol is not interested in being proven wrong shows....

-he is not interested in making better decisions in the future or improving his cognitive abilities or helping others (ie all of his staff) make better decisions as well.

He is a detriment to the notion of ski patrol improving, and a poor (perhaps paranoid/threatened) example for anyone in a leadership position and should be retrained and if that does not help.... ultimately ... replaced with someone interested more in the safety of those on the mountain than any personal agenda against being proven wrong and having his authority threatened (as he is currently behaving the same way a narrow minded person would in a similar situation- and the behavior of his underlings is to follow his poorly chosen behavior rather than to oppose and correct him for every skiers safety benefit ).

[Seraph]

Coincidence that this was published in our paper just a very short time after the incident happened? I THINK NOT.....but that's just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions :rolleyes:

Just a little pop psychology here....but....I think there were some clues that explains the "I have a mortgage to pay" comment by Mr. Simson. I wonder if he is under stress because of his mortgage payments and his salary.

From the referenced article:

Inspirations: "Being able to provide for a family I love"

Accomplishments: "And I built my own home — that was a big one."

[John Gilmour]

snipped...

Part Deux:

When you get a speeding ticket on the road there are two distinct factors that help me understand what I did wrong: there is a posted speed for that road, and the officer has a quantifiable method for measuring my speed (radar gun). Right now, Keystone has no posted speed other than the ambiguous “Slow” sign (or my favorite “Put on the Brakes!”) and they have no way to measure your speed other than something “observed” by someone who possibly might not have the skills to determine speed properly. \

-snipped..

1.

What is the answer? You got me. Other than everyone wearing GPS beacons that beep when you go to fast I have no idea.

---snipped...

2.

I am not going to be “that guy” who no starts shouting “don’t go to Keystone, Waaaaa!”. Keystone is a great mountain with excellent opportunities for some good carving. But we are all adults here and you can make your own decisions. Do you feel comfortable going to a mountain that:

• Has an MW employee who lies and writes you up for their own personal reasons?

• Ski Patrollers on the hill who are convinced (and vocal) you must be guilty because you are on a carving board?

• Head of Ski Patrol who seems to be a ticking time bomb?

• Head of Operations, Jeff Hill, would rather stick his head in the sand rather than recognize the issues with their own employees and policies?

Your choice, I’ve made mine.

answers....

1.

So... well... we have all seen these Roadside radar speed displays that are solar powered...

Solution

A)... set a reasonable POSTED speed limit that would still allow a snowboarder/skier in slow slushy snow without wax to continue to ride with a minimum of 10-15mph (so he can avoid others out of control).

B)FIRE ALL but a single yellow jacket to pay for this technology- and he can enforce it as he can just listen for a beep to determine who is speeding. Skiers/snowboarders will have a true display of their speed.

So Fin are you moving your operation to Aspen??? Y'know for the front range Copper is my first choice,,,, then Keystone, but now I feel like I have lost a Mt. I really LOVED....because I can tell you I won't ever be buying a pass for Keystone unless I hear that this sort of harassment is removed. I was considering moving to a different set of Mts... because the 4 Mt. Aspen Ski Co pass was lowered (still horribly expensive) to early season pricing of $1499 or $1999 in season... But Aspen lack of crowds makes me want to stay... err sort of.... the weather has been bad and they have not made snow since late December.. So the snow conditions from Jan 3rd until January 20th were worse than East Coast conditions..which IMHO is unacceptable for a brand of Skiing like Aspen. The grooming has been awful (they need to hire an east coast groomer who knows how to deal with lack of snow - BTW there has been no rain, no mud storms, no heat wave...there is simply no excuse) ...I even left for a week and I am hoping all the new snow we are getting will help...

Rocks on spar gulch, also Copper- (dinged up everything..core shots etc.) weeds growing under the A1a lift, bare spots on Aspen highlands, and in Snowmass.

So I wrote an email to Aspen SkiCO- they found a few mistakes... in the letter like Linsay Vohn is racing again and not sidelined currently... and then tossed my whole complaint out the window without addressing the fact that they are doing nothing (no snowmaking) to justify the $2000 ski pass cost.

Most annoyingly...I point out where the rocks are and they reply "we have no snowmaking above Silver Bells" and ALL of the rock and bare spot complaints I had were BELOW SILVER BELLS.

These guys just have the idea that if they yell loudly enough ....even if wrong.... you will think they are right.. (Hitler knew it was extremely important to have amazing sound systems at his rallies- actually fantastic sound systems given the high cost of tube amplification and power requirements..).

Personally, I just side step the yellers and try to move to the next level.

Or try a different approach. If Aspen SKICO continued to have bad snow.... and did nothing.... and mother nature did not step in... I was going to start a volunteer snowmaking group for the Crown Family (Owners of Aspen Skico) so they could "financially afford" to turn on the guns... perhaps the Crown family knows about "guns and military things" since they are the most influential stockholders and board members of General Dynamics- they must be trying to save their pennies during this recession (as if the war isn't as profitable for them???).... the entire town of Aspen relies on snow for our economy.

So maybe you could start a private organization to help train yellow Jackets as it would appear Keystone has not designated enough training funds for them to do their job properly.

[fin]

JohnO’Brien, en93nsx, and Terryw have brought up a good point and one I need to address before it goes too far. I have NO hard feelings and disrespect for Ski Patrol and neither should anyone else here. Ski Patrol serves a major need on the mountain as far as our safety and they do this day in and day out at all our mountains. I personally have friends on Ski Patrol and Bomber also sells to and helps out our local Ski Patrol employees with gear.

My issues with what has occurred here is about individuals abusing their authority on the hill and acting in very unprofessional and disturbing ways to the point I become concerned for my own well being when I visit that hill. Also, the policies that the mountain has in place are ineffective (speed control) and confusing and need some major fixing in my opinion.

Interesting history on speed control here in Summit County, about 5-7 years ago Copper Mountain started their Yellow Jacket program. They came onto the scene in an absolute wave of force and brutally controlled and monitored the hill. I think the fact the program was new they were not sure how far they could go and so they were tempted to, well, see how far they could go. Warnings and pass pullings where going down by the dozen each day. It got to the point where it became known to not go to Copper due to the Yellow Jackets and their heavy handed methods. Copper final caught on and backed off on their enforcement and found a good balance of safety but still making people/customers feel welcome. I believe Keystone seems to be at this extreme point and when they have people fueling the problem like Angry Craig it probably won’t change until he is gone.

That said I am sad to say that Len has e-mailed me again and has decided to not join in on the conversation. He had his reasons but I am disappointed he won’t be giving his side of the story and possibly explain his actions that day.

To Len: I took the time and the courage to go sit down with four of your supervisors how come you won’t step forward and join us here for a friendly debate?

I guess he is busy watching that “Murder She Wrote” marathon.

Now, as much as I was thinking this was done, I am here to inform you a Part Three is forming Since Part Two came out I have been contacted by a few “individuals” that have brought forth some VERY interesting information and history on our buddy Angry Craig. Having had my own encounter with Angry Craig I was not that shocked to hear about other “incidents” of his. Let’s just say a pattern is forming here that should concern all snowboarders at Keystone. I am holding off until I have everything in place and confirmed. Good chance this may not be until after SES. So hold tight, we’ll be back…..

[fin]

P.S. I vote for John Gilmore for All Time Head-Honcho for all resorts in North America.

[Helmut Karvlow]

Fin, you don't have a hair on your a$$ if you don't march right down there and apply to be a "yellow coat cop" yourself.

that way you can argue with yourself if you think you were going too fast:boxing_sm

[Allee]

Since Part Two came out I have been contacted by a few “individuals” that have brought forth some VERY interesting information and history on our buddy Angry Craig. Having had my own encounter with Angry Craig I was not that shocked to hear about other “incidents” of his. Let’s just say a pattern is forming here that should concern all snowboarders at Keystone. I am holding off until I have everything in place and confirmed. Good chance this may not be until after SES. So hold tight, we’ll be back…..

Sweet!! "hands you a digging tool"

"Oh, and strikes Keystone off list of places to visit on Colorado road trip"

[John E]

Angry Craig & Len remind me a bit of a woman in our neighborhood who walks her two dogs: a loud & snappy Dachshound & a large German Shepherd.

I wonder if the Dachshound would be so bold if the German Shepherd weren't right behind. Would Len be so bold if he didn't know that Craig was backing him?

[balboajeff]

I am very disapointed that Len has chosen to stay out of this.Free and open discourse is the most American virtue.I sincerly hope that he did not make this decision because he felt he had already been judged and convicted in this venue.Also in America one is innocent until proven guilty.

Len, please feel that, at least from this persons perspective, you are a welcome participant on this board.

[Kimo]

Isn't there an movie about the Keystone Cops. Maybe they should have to watch that movie.

[DiveBomber]

JUST like IWO JIMA!!!!!!

[fin]

Just had a good conversation this morning with Jeff Hill at Keystone who is head of Mountain Operations. He had not seen the video yet of the supposed infraction so I just hung up the phone and sent him the link. He will then be calling me back. I am hoping for an ending to this story that will satisfy everyone.

Will report back afterwards............

[SteveInOregon]

Fin , your good to go from what I see, its seams that grandpa Len had tunnel vision on you and only you, and those around you in Len's vision tunnel were much slower than you or completely stationary like the couple sitting in the middle of the trail that you passed, so to grandpa you looked like a missile.

What I have noticed as a speed demon is that there is the "boarder patrol" ( pun intended) and you the illegal alien on the long board.

They like to be "respected" in other words they like to see me side slide at least a 45 degree slide when approaching them , its kind of like applying a jake brake on a truck , or drogue chute on a race car,lol, they want to "see" something that lets them know your slowing down .

To do a slide is like waving at your country neighbors as you pass then on the farm road its just a simple way to acknowledge & respect them .

Also I have noticed that even tho I am going 10mph or less in stalled traffic ( NuB's sitting in the middle of the run ) that it is wise to go "way" around them by at least a couple yards no less.

The 2nd guy with the erroneous assumptions and mal formed opinons on alpine gear needs to be taken to task, he may be buddies or related to grandpa so he was backing up grandpa out of blind loyalty and willing to virtually lie to take grandpas side.

Fin > Nail these guy's, they are bad for business.

Keystone needs ambassadors working on the slop not these moron's.

Keystone has an ambassador riding the slope > You

[carvin29]

I think what's interesting is Keystone is developing a really bad rep as far as being overly strict when it comes to marking tickets, etc. Looking around other message boards, a lot of people have the same complaints.

[SteveInOregon]

Dear Len, although I completely disagree with you as per Fin's assessment of the encounter , and the video, I would like to hear you out Sir.

The "grandpa" use by me is not a dis-respect in my use of this term, its just a reference Len.

I love to go f-a-s-t but I also know that ski patrol is needed, and can be a tough job, we need ambassadors on both sides. on the resort side and the alpine carving and snowboard side, you have met one in Fin.

You will find 99% of the folks here on Bomber on line are polite people in every way, most are in fact not dangerous down hill "bombers" as the BOL name suggests.

Many alpine carving devotees are former or part time skiers, they are for the most part a very classy demographic that ski resorts love to cater too, the majority of which are middle to upper middle class people in their 30's to late 50's, ( with kid's ) and definitely NOT the typical stereotype of a teen hoodlum or ruff neck heavy drinking pot smoking selfish low intelligence dangerous street thug snowboarder .:p

regards

Steve

[Wun]

It's been said that Len has already settled on not joining the discussion here, maybe because of all the initial opposition against him and perhaps decided that there was no way anyone here would be convinced to deem anything regarding his actions in his own favor.

[jburrill]

You will find 99% of the folks here on Bomber on line are polite people in every way, most are in fact not dangerous down hill "bombers" as the BOL name suggests.

Many alpine carving devotees are former or part time skiers, they are for the most part a very classy demographic that ski resorts love to cater too, the majority of which are middle to upper middle class people in their 30's to late 50's, ( with kid's ) and definitely NOT the typical stereotype of a teen hoodlum or ruff neck heavy drinking pot smoking selfish low intelligence dangerous street thug snowboarder .:p

This was wonderful. I love to read loads of crap like this. I think the term "total squares" was not included. Perhaps it should be.

[SteveInOregon]

It's been said that Len has already settled on not joining the discussion here, maybe because of all the initial opposition against him and perhaps decided that there was no way anyone here would be convinced to deem anything regarding his actions in his own favor.

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