Fastskiguy Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Sounds like Chris was trying to get some kind of end to the meeting, too bad his boss wasn't having anything to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO'Brien Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 As a former ski patrol I can tell you that it attracts many forms of skiers and boarders. I was a student, so I was just looking for free skiing and food to get more time on the slopes, we made up about half the patrol. The other large group are the skiers that like these types of organizations, most liking the authority it gives them and the political structure that comes with the organization. There are lots of other categories, but these were the two most prominent, and by nature, did not hang out together. That was 30 years ago, so things might have changed but not likely. Fin, I think you found one of the authoritative types that like the power and the position and maybe has an anti-snowboarder attitude. By not recognizing his position, you in effect disrespected him and that really pisses these type off real bad as respect is the thing they need to keep being in the patrol. The fact that another patrol was witnessing this just escalated the situation further. I agree with you in the way you handled them as this could have escalated and ended up out of control if you invited further discussion with him without the desire to let him win the argument. Resorts put up with the authoritative types as they usually end up being patrol leaders and the link to resort management. The resort cannot operate without a patrol for insurance reasons. I saw lots of customers challenge these guys and few won anything more than a minimal apology to try to end the dispute and appease the patrol. On the other hand, ski patrol (and I am sure MW) really is a tough job sometimes, especially when you get big crowds and tight surroundings. Toss in a few jerks and your day can be quite unpleasant. Most patrol and probably MW are given little respect and the only power they have is to clip a pass or give a warning. I did neither during 7 years of patrol as there were always other means of dealing with situations as long as you keep your head about you. Each patrol had guys who treated clipped tickets and warning as trophies that gave them the attention that they needed. Ironically, most of the authoritative types had subordinate positions as day jobs, so maybe patrol gave them the ability to balance off all the crap they put up with during the day and get to dish it out on weekends. I am sure that the mountain has some sort of daily/weekly meeting, so maybe this incident can be used as a means of assisting them in understanding the customers thoughts and at the same time allow some dialogue between the two groups (boarders and patrol/MW) to bring any hostilities out and be dealt with. Why not suggest that you work along side with them to define the speed issue. For the record, I voted that you were not travelling with excessive speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. T Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Oi!!! You will obey maaah authoritaaaay!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvan Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 OMFG these people have serious issues and certainly need some counselling... This whole thing reminds me of 1984 by George Orwell.... speed control, mind control, brain wash... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjholm Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Rented a place at the base of the new gondola at Keystone for five weeks last year. I had a great time and carved with many who contribute to this forum...see you all soon at SES!! After a couple heated discussions and searching down a "supervisor" I avoided School Marm completely after the first week. Tough to do while skiing with my kids. MW would look at me and say something like, "..you guys really move on them apline boards." The one reasonable patroller I queried said, "I can see you are in complete control, but, you can really freak people out with those hard turns." Furthermore, I couldn't find a yellow jacket to police the skiers and boarders riding the blues and absolutely out of control. One such individual came very close to hitting my 4 y/o daughter. She had the right of way, down hill, and she is a very good skier - we live on a hill here in WI and she can carve parallel turns on her skies that would put most skiiers to shame. I don't think he understood the gravity of this "near death" (for him if he had hit her) experience. I spent most of my time on these runs a never saw patrolers or MW staff. They all camped at the yellow signs and gave me the stink eye as I came by. I had some strong feelings last year; this confirms my future choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp1 Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Fin, it's hard to 'admit to guilt' when their is NONE. Some of us can NOT do it, and I am glad you are one of us! It' seems pretty obvious Craig knew exactly what he wanted to hear from you. I'd bet he (Craig) made Chris aware of the 'desired outcome' before the meeting, that's why he stood in the doorway & said what he did. Something I'd guess (from his body language he didn't agree with) but unfortunately, keeping his his job probably dictated. I feel sorry for people that let themselves get in that position. Luckily, you have other alternatives as to where to invest your snow time & dollars. Thanks for sharing this with us, Keystone has seen their last penny from me (not that it bothers them). On a better note: How's the 'Subi' comming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 “We are not done here, I need you to understand my position here” apparently he wasn't doing the same for you when you were trying to make your position understood, instead evading your statements and giving you crap about the children and his mortgage, so there was no need for you to do that for him. just wanted to get my own quip in this thread, if not write an essay :) i'm not kidding though, i can go on over how this guy blew such an amazing chance to shine a good light on his professional community as an ambassador with little more cost in time than he spent in that meeting. i started writing out a post in my word processor and it soon spanned a page while i was only a fraction of the way through my point. i suppose it's not necessary to have my viewpoint broadcasted this time around; everyone thinks fin=good and keystone=bad, so it's all gravy Some of us can NOT do it, and I am glad you are one of us! you know, i'm 99.9% of the time the kind of coward that readily admits guilt if it saves me trouble and scoops me out of some crap, but being in fin's position with the video-recorded scenes and all, i think i would've taken the same course of action and handled the meeting as similarly to fin as i could have. fin, i'm glad you didn't cave in the end too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraph Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Well I will be showing my support with my wallet. There are plenty of places to go ski and snowboard, and I will not patronize Keystone until they provide a formal apology. Additionally, I will be dissuading friends and family from going to Keystone too. I hope management from Keystone does come and check out this forum and see the badwill that they have created in the skiing/snowboarding community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickythecat Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 It's unfortunate Keystone has this reaction. I've skied Keystone for many years, and promoted their resort to many visitors and friends. Now that I have been enlightened and ride a board, they don't seem to want me there. Perhaps after all these years, next year I may have to give the CopperPass a try. Now I must go to my profile and remove Keystone as "my favorite local hill". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyTKDsquirrel Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I've learned a lot in this thread. Shame I didn't see it earlier, but everyone has pretty much said the same thing I would have; you didn't do anything wrong, Fin. Great job sticking to your guns. Keystone won't be seeing me around after reading this. I'm looking forward to Len's input to this whole thing. Sooo I'll be the 3rd to say, welcome Len! And thank you for your service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Wow, Fin. That sounds too crazy to be true. At least you have plenty of other mountains in the area to ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcABQ Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 glad you held your ground what a ridiculous situation any word on that clam chowder ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sounds like angry guy didn't want to acknowledge one little crack in the system (your incident) for fear that the whole thing might fall down as a sham. Remember the saying: "Its hard to convince someone that something is true when their employment depends on it being false." The situation reminds me of the time that I tried to go kayak surfing at a local beach this past summer. I was told by a teenage maintenance guy that I was not allowed to launch or land my boat on the beach for safety reasons. Their solution? To launch from a dock in the bay and paddle out through a break in the barrier beach to the ocean, facing some of the most treacherous currents on the east coast. I proceeded to bombard and confound them with a million questions that they clearly never thought of: How do you define "launch"? Do stand-up paddle surfers--who are allowed on the beach--launch? What about a surf ski that you can carry into the water on your shoulder? What if I paddled from the bay, but a wave drove me onto the beach? Would I be fined or arrested? Plus, even though I knew of a local group of kayak surfers that met at the beach regularly, the beach administrators swore that this could not be true. Long story short, after about an hour the regular kayak crew arrived and paddled out right past the lifeguards (who were totally cool the entire time) with no troubles. I pointed this out to the ornary beach officials who by then had checked the regulations and realized--they said absolutely nothing about kayaks on the beach! The guy then admitted to me further "we never had to deal with these 'new' things before, so we never thought about them or bothered to put a plan in place and were just airing on the side of caution." Sound familiar my carving friends? :rolleyes: Sorry to digress. Fin's story just brought up a need to vent and commiserate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Not really an unexpected outcome. Maybe the head of Ski Patrol felt that Fin WAS going to fast for the situation, but is a poor communicator. He probably does not typically have to deal with the likes of a frustrated Fin and is very unaccustomed to being challenged. That does not excuse overboard actions though. It would have certainly been better if they had someone with people skills in the meeting that was not supervised by Craig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Kleh Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I think that someone should send Keystone's higher ups the web address to this thread. They would be appalled to see all the negative comments about their mountain displayed to a large number of riders who might not frequent their mountain anymore. I don't think any of them had a clue as to what bomberonline represents. Douche bags! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Kleh Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 In fact, everyone who is disturbed about this incident should write them. I already did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
en93nsx Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Power Clerks. There is no reasoning with this group of authoritarian automatons. These are the people who take on paramilitary roles in life, just to satisfy their craving for authority while wrapping it in the guise of volunteerism or as a supplemental source of income. These douche nozzles can be found posing as mountain-watch/safety-patrol/ski patrol, concert/event security, bouncers, adult rec-league sports referees, lifeguards, meter maids, etc. There is no hope for them. They are what they are because they were, are, and will always be, impotent losers. They speak a different language and live in a different reality than normal, healthy people. Avoid them at all costs, even if that means taking a different way down the mountain. I volunteer on the ski patrol at my local hill and am among 55 other volunteers, we only have a few paid patrollers as we are a small hill. I can't think of anyone that I know on the patrol that would be described by any of the adjectives above. These people are the best group that I have had the pleasure of working with. Everyone is fairly laidback and we have a great management staff that communicates very well with the patrol. The ski area manager is a great guy( he also patrols) who explained to me when I first started that 90% of our job is PR, talking to people on the hill in the lift line, helping people out around the hill and always having a smile on our face. I cannot imagine working in a patrol as described above. I feel sorry for anyone in that situation. I feel even worse for customers of the hill or mountain that have had the misfortune of running into that type of patroller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photodad2001 Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 These douche nozzles can be found posing as mountain-watch/safety-patrol/ski patrol, concert/event security, bouncers, adult rec-league sports referees, lifeguards, meter maids, etc. I don't know what you're talking about. Roadhouse was the best movie ever made. It's those darn ski instructors that think they run the mountain haven't you seen the movie Ski Patrol? Everyone loves referees! I remember my summers lifegaurding at the local pool. I was the likable lifegaurd, Larry was the prick, and Chris was the comic relief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Power Clerks. There is no reasoning with this group of authoritarian automatons. These are the people who take on paramilitary roles in life, just to satisfy their craving for authority while wrapping it in the guise of volunteerism or as a supplemental source of income. These douche nozzles can be found posing as mountain-watch/safety-patrol/ski patrol, concert/event security, bouncers, adult rec-league sports referees, lifeguards, meter maids, etc. There is no hope for them. They are what they are because they were, are, and will always be, impotent losers. They speak a different language and live in a different reality than normal, healthy people. Avoid them at all costs, even if that means taking a different way down the mountain. Hey Flounder don't brand them all with the same iron. I have friends (including the meter maid who skis with her granddaughter that's the same age as my daughter) in every single one of those categories. And they are my FRIENDS - not just people I put up with. So I know you are an expert troll and thinking you are going on a funny rant, but this aint about you. Real people. Including Len. Our pro patrol here is awesome. And guest services ( Our Yellow Jackets ) have learned to tolerate the carvers especially when I point at them from above and rip a big, controlled carve all the way around them. There is enough stink in a pile of poo, without you dogpiling on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terryw Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Power Clerks. There is no reasoning with this group of authoritarian automatons. These are the people who take on paramilitary roles in life, just to satisfy their craving for authority while wrapping it in the guise of volunteerism or as a supplemental source of income. These douche nozzles can be found posing as mountain-watch/safety-patrol/ski patrol, concert/event security, bouncers, adult rec-league sports referees, lifeguards, meter maids, etc. There is no hope for them. They are what they are because they were, are, and will always be, impotent losers. They speak a different language and live in a different reality than normal, healthy people. Avoid them at all costs, even if that means taking a different way down the mountain. I have to take exception to this statement too. I just joined the ski patrol this past year, and I have to say that the people I have met in the patrol have been nothing but helpful and fun to work with. That being said, any organization can have a few bad apples, and the National Ski Patrol is a very large organization. Our trainers have been very clear with us that, and I quote, "You do not own the hill. We are here to protect and assist the guests of the resort. Make them happy! We want them to come back. If they don't come back, you won't have any place to ride." If you have never been injured on the hill, then you have never had the chance to see the patrol at its best, helping to ease your pain and transport you quickly to the appropriate medical facility to get you on your way again. And in some cases, actually saving your life. Do I think Fin was wronged and treated unfairly? You bet I do. I think he slowed appropriately at the slow sign when asked to do so. What else can you do, unclip and skate past? Should have been a non-incident. I really don't understand the managements response. That is so contrary to good business relations and customer service. If Fin was being obnoxious or unreasonable, I might understand. But he was neither. Very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 I've only been to keystone once, and although I did not have any negative experiences with the Ski Patrol (actually, I did have one very pleasant conversation with a patroller who seemed to be a fan of alpine snowboarders) or the Mountain Hosts there I didn't have a great time ... mostly because it was totally clogged up with straightening tools the night I was there ... and that can happen anywhere ... though it did seem waaaaayyyy waaaayyyyy more disneyland than other resorts I have been to in summit county. That said, it sounds like they have a very unfortunate situation going on with their ski patrol. It certainly seemed like the vast majority of the ski patrollers were at least sympathetic to Fin's situation, and may have been willing to have a fair and civil discussion ... but wary of getting their boss's all-too-tightwad panties all in a bunch. I really feel for those guys. Having to work with or for somebody who is so clearly unable to engage productively in a civil disagreement without poisoning the discussion with fallout from their own personal insecurities must be a huge drag. Personalities like that have absolutely no place managing a team of patrollers. I'm sure there are many wonderful people at Keystone, but what good does it do the mountain to place them under the direction of such an insufferably napoleonic little prick? In my experience, people who are confident of their position tend not to froth at the mouth when they are confronted with a dissenting opinion; instead taking the opportunity to calmly and persuasively reveal the strength of their argument. This guy sounded like one of those people who would rather be told they are right than accept that they might be able to learn something by reasoning things out, even if it means admitting error ... the same ilk as those who sought to execute anyone arguing that the earth was round and revolved around the sun ... I'd have a lot of trouble getting myself to buy a pass or tickets at a mountain where I knew that the people making decisions about safety and warnings harbor such gross contempt for fairness, reason and civility ... knowing that my pass could be marked or yanked by any yahoo with a chip on his shoulder and a total disregard for fairness means I'm not buying one. Perhaps improving the clam chowder would improve the general disposition of the mountain employees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wun Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Hey Flounder don't brand them all with the same iron. I have to take exception to this statement too. Maybe you guys slightly misinterpreted? Maybe not :) Like JohnO'Brien defines two prominent categories of many within ski patrol: I was a student, so I was just looking for free skiing and food to get more time on the slopes, we made up about half the patrol. The other large group are the skiers that like these types of organizations, most liking the authority it gives them and the political structure that comes with the organization. At least, the way I perceived it, Flounder was referring solely to those that can be defined by the latter category that JohnO'Brien outlined, regardless of how abundant they are in any given ski patrol community. I have friends ... in every single one of those categories. And they are my FRIENDS - not just people I put up with. Personally, my natural reaction to that would be the simple "that's something else" or "that's neither here nor there." At least, for me, the fact that I share a friendship with a person doesn't base nearly as much of my personal judgments and opinions of someone's character as your quote seems to make out about your such deductions. see the patrol at its best, helping to ease your pain and transport you quickly to the appropriate medical facility to get you on your way again. And in some cases, actually saving your life. Again, same reaction. I don't doubt that ski patrol can perform (what I see as) their primary tasks adeptly. To make an extreme example of your argument and present a new point, you can have a dick on ski patrol do a great job rescuing a rider that he felt had no business attempting a run too difficult for their skill level, all while insulting and criticizing him. In the end, his skillset may far outweigh his nasty 'tude as a valuable asset. I wouldn't say that this sort of attitude absolutely has no place in ski patrol (though it is pretty bad and can hurt business); just that this is character in no way befitting for head of ski patrol. Great example: Dr. House, who operates under the (lack of :lol:) control of the more presentable Dr. Cuddy. Anyway, to go off further on my own tangent, that explanation refers more to Angry Craig, whose actions of shooting down fin despite present evidence supporting his case and fabricating a "bigger picture" I can only view as downright unacceptable given his position (not necessarily in title, but in the fact that a person of his combination of character and authority was placed where he was in the situation). As for Len, he made a bad call, and some see his actions as having gone on a power rampage, and I wouldn't argue against that; though personally, I would readily forgive him had some aspects of this incident been handled more (and rightfully IMO) in fin's favor or if any sincere apologies were made. Everybody makes mistakes, and it's expected to happen more often within the peons. OTOH, the mistake of Angry Craig made by a tenacious head employee working in related fields since 1991, no less, is far less readily forgivable, particularly when he would not submit despite being countered in debate. I've seen this stuff happen way too much in my short time here on earth, headstrong jerks lacking the will and/or capacity to take a step back and be reasoned with, almost to the point of placing hate in my heart toward them. Society may not be able to force-shape every last person's personality into something "better," but that's a detestable trait in a leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terryw Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 You know what, you may be right. I went back and reread the post, and I initially thought Flounder was calling all of the people in those organizations power clerks. He never actually does. I may have read more into his words than he intended. I hope so. I will stand corrected. It is a shame Angry Craig could not do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Firestone Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 I came across this web page: someone's experience from a year ago at Keystone, which is curiously analogous to Fin's experience: http://www.angrysnowboarder.com/?p=4229 I wonder if the "supervisor" is the exact same "Angry Craig." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 I came across this web page: someone's experience from a year ago at Keystone, which is curiously analogous to Fin's experience:http://www.angrysnowboarder.com/?p=4229 I wonder if the "supervisor" is the exact same "Angry Craig." That is quite a find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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