Please dont yell at me.

[Istvan]

Well... bindings do break. I myself managed to brake 1 TD2 bolt, 1 normal and 2 Ti bails in the last couple of seasons. And all this happened on wide EC boards. Never broke a binding on a narrower board (and I ride narrower boards most of the time). I guess binding angles have something to do with the forces on the bails.

Maybe that is the reason why racers do not brake bindings that often. And I guess also the suspension systems / plates absorb some of the shock.

ps.: to give credit where credit is due: the Bomber team replaced all the broken parts immediately

[WinterGold]

Well... bindings do break. I myself managed to brake 1 TD2 bolt, 1 normal and 2 Ti bails in the last couple of seasons. And all this happened on wide EC boards. Never broke a binding on a narrower board (and I ride narrower boards most of the time). I guess binding angles have something to do with the forces on the bails.

Maybe that is the reason why racers do not brake bindings that often. And I guess also the suspension systems / plates absorb some of the shock.

ps.: to give credit where credit is due: the Bomber team replaced all the broken parts immediately

But most racers don´t use narrow boards and therefore relatively lower binding angles. So it would be the other way round ...

And I don´t think that racers would risk breakage during their runs, because that would lose them the race.

I talked to the constructor of the Ibex plate and he told me that if breakage is really a problem on his bindings then he wonders why hardly any spare parts are ordered from him at the moment ... but I´m not saying that it does not happen!

[Istvan]

Sorry, I was not specific enough. I broke bails on boards with 22-23 cm waist. Never broke bindings on boards with 17-18cm waist. Racers currently ride boards with a waist around 20cm.

[WinterGold]

Sorry, I was not specific enough. I broke bails on boards with 22-23 cm waist. Never broke bindings on boards with 17-18cm waist. Racers currently ride boards with a waist around 20cm.

But maybe it is more the riding style (EC) ... I don´t know ... what angles are you using on your EC boards?

Racers often have low angles (between 45° and 50° on the back foot).

[Istvan]

EC: F57-58 B52-53

Other: F65 B60

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yes. I've broken all-metal bindings from Burton and Nitro, and flailing down the hill with one boot loose is terrifying. Whatever advantage the F2s might have, it's not worth it to me if the bindings are any less strong.

Well, I've broken Burton Race Plate heel plates, and many years ago I did bend a TD1 heel bail and popped out mid-carve.

(For the record, the F2 is a different binding from the Burton IMO. Some people seem to be equating the two, which I'm not sure is correct.)

In any case, I guess my point was that it seems like a relatively moot point to me: professional racers seem to almost universally use stiff boots with flexy binding attachments (usually on a plate, now). I don't know if anyone uses stiff bindings any more; the new TD3 (and its subsequent variations that we keep hearing about!) seems to be proof of this trend.

Cheers,

greg

[NateW]

I talked to the constructor of the Ibex plate and he told me that if breakage is really a problem on his bindings then he wonders why hardly any spare parts are ordered from him at the moment ... but I´m not saying that it does not happen!

After breaking one binding, and cartwheeling down the hill with one leg out, and knowing that there's a more robust product available... would you replace the part you've already proven isn't strong enough? Maybe once, but not twice.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who ride less robust bindings and don't break them, and it's great that they have more affortable options that meet their needs.

For those of us who have broken too much already, Phil said it best:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=265873&postcount=20

[Bordy]

After breaking one binding, and cartwheeling down the hill with one leg out, and knowing that there's a more robust product available... would you replace the part you've already proven isn't strong enough? Maybe once, but not twice.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who ride less robust bindings and don't break them, and it's great that they have more affortable options that meet their needs.

For those of us who have broken too much already, Phil said it best:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=265873&postcount=20

Nate,

I have broken every binding out there and I am a light weight. I really only think Burton Bindings with the clear plastic, or very old plastic 3-hole variplates are going to break. I am just surprised when any other binding breaks... For the record this also includes intec binding from several manufactors. Including metal binders such as fins wonderful bombers, cateks, phoikkkas, Ibex-Burtons, F2, deeluxe, and snowpros, also back in the day I used to blow up emery surfs like they were butter.

The only reason I make this stament is becuase, I truley beleave anybinding can and may fail, to tell people metal binding don't fail or are stronger may or may not be a true statement..... It just depends on your own personal experance.... I wish I could just screw the dam board to my feet!

Then again I have binding that I have had from the early 90's that are still up and running problem free, Go Figure?

Again just my experance........

[philw]

Some interesting stuff there.

In my case I blew my boot apart whilst trying to break my bindings, and ultimately broke my ankle as a consequence. I'm sure I could pull the inserts out of the board with my "cheap" F2 bindings. They are over engineered.

So I'm curious about bindings which break. Especially when these burly racer chaps don't break them.

How precisely did these bindings break? Do you have a few photos of the fractures? I don't doubt anyone's word: I want to look at the fractures. You could be getting brittle (cold temperature) failures, or it could be fatigue (from some continually acting repetitive stress), or it could be a crack from a manufacturing defect or design defect, or something else.

There may be some things which riders are doing which increase the likelihood of failure.

[NateW]

There may be some things which riders are doing which increase the likelihood of failure.

I know what my problem is... Most of my binding failures have been from park riding, hitting a mid-sized jump with a little bit less speed than I should have, thus landing on the 'knuckle' rather than the steeper landing slope. (This is something I never do deliberately, but accidents happen.)

I separated the top and bottom parts of an all-metal Nitro bindings, then ripped the screws out of the (metal) baseplate, then gave up on those. Bent the crap out of some Burton bails (similar scenario but smaller size - that one happened in moguls). Switched to Bombers and Cateks. Had similar issues when I was running bails (TD1, Catek WC), but never actually bent or broke the bails. Switched to intec and haven't had a problem since.

Never had an issue "just riding" or even "just carving" except once when I was trying to find the right spacing between the toe and heel with bail bindings. If you run too tight, the boot sole deforms and this contributes to surprise release.

Intec satisfied me, but Fintec made me very happy.

[NateW]

The only reason I make this stament is becuase, I truley beleave anybinding can and may fail, to tell people metal binding don't fail or are stronger may or may not be a true statement.....

I've heard of broken Bombers so I know it's possible. If I knew of something stronger, I'd ride that instead. But Intec Bombers haven't failed me yet, so I continue to recommend them.

The Burtons that let me down were 100% metal. I don't remember the model name. Old-school 5-hole bolt pattern. I really liked the design, they had some flex built in, but in a way that looked pretty strong (and probably was pretty strong) but the bails bent too easily.

[michael.a]

Taking a shot in the dark here,

but Im guessing racers replace their bindings far more often then us mere mortals :) hence the low risk of breakage.

I bought my first TD2s two years ago and hope to put another 3 on them. Id go bankrupt if I had to buy a few pairs of bindings every season, but for racers it might be a fact of life, and no matter how you cut it, F2s are way way cheaper than bombers.

[pokkis]

I think on Bombers, as on F2's, most breaking parts are bails. So you neeed to replace them (hopefully) before they brake.

I was first Burton bindings on ninteens, get pissed about constant bail breakage. Switched then to TD1's, but they were quite stessfull for bords and also too precise. Then i moved to F2 Intecs, was happy with them but got bored to switch them board to board, so i went to TD 2's with second board option. Now when you can get suspension kit and steel receivers for them world is saved. Easy to change bindings from board to board and no more breakage.

My EC friends are constantly breaking F2 bails and also time to time killing also TD bails so it looks that low angles and EC-style would require some kryptonite for bails to survive.

[b0ardski]

Hey Nate, curious if the Nitros were stepin, and do you still have whats left for parts?

PM me, your email isn't enabled.

back to our regularly scheduled program

[Jack M]

My EC friends are constantly breaking F2 bails and also time to time killing also TD bails so it looks that low angles and EC-style would require some kryptonite for bails to survive.

EC guys size their bindings too loose, to allow for a lot of boot roll in the binding. This creates a lot of excess torque on the bails. I've suggested maybe a braided ss cable would do better in that application.

[pokkis]

Funny thing, i proposed same thing some time ago :rolleyes:

But i know several EC style riders who keep thei bails on normal tightness, not like Jaques&Co, and they break them too

[steamboatrailer]

I've broke several heel bails on td 1s @td 2s.As your boot moves in the binding,you create friction.Sand from the parking lot in the heel lip,after time it makes a stress riser.Inspect your bindings often.I went FIN-TEC have had no probs.But I will replace my toe bails,as they have two seasons on them.Nothing is ment to last forever,Fin is getting real close though.Bring on that td race I got money to spend.:D

[jonbass]

Taking a shot in the dark here,

but Im guessing racers replace their bindings far more often then us mere mortals :) hence the low risk of breakage.

I bought my first TD2s two years ago and hope to put another 3 on them. Id go bankrupt if I had to buy a few pairs of bindings every season, but for racers it might be a fact of life, and no matter how you cut it, F2s are way way cheaper than bombers.

I think you are right. High level racers probably replace bindings and parts fairly often compared to some recreational riders. There is also probably a fair bit of maintenance going on too which could prolong the time between failures.

[RCrobar]

Hi Jack

EC guys size their bindings too loose, to allow for a lot of boot roll in the binding. This creates a lot of excess torque on the bails

I have read a few of your posts that have discussed EC and loose bails. With all due respect, the information you are providing in these posts is not correct. I base this claim only on my personal experience.

A few seasons ago I to rode my bails very loose, I do not set them this way anymore. Now I clamp the bails down tightly. I found that it made no difference in breakage whether my bails were loose or tight on my bindings.

Loose or tight bindings, I still move my boots and lower body as required in the rotation technique regardless of the bail tension. I am big enough that all I need to do was push my boots harder to get the same movement when the bindings were tight. It feels more restrictive, but you can move. As a result the bails eventually bend and break regardless of the bail tension.

For me reading about all EC guys riding loose bindings is like you reading about asymmetrical boards.

Cheers

Rob

[Dave ESPI]

Ive broken Burtons, Sno-Pros, Snopro RACE, and F-2 bindings. I have never broken a Bomber TD2, but I can definatley say I've had my rear toe bail open up on me when I was riding as Even though I have it rolled all the way out to accomodate my boot, I do get a good bit of flex, and it can cause the hind foot to twist in the binding. "PING!" is a sound you do NOT want to hear while carving a hard heelside as you will see your back leg at about chest level in a split second later and down you go if you are not prepared for said event happening. Having some movement is OK, but slop is bad. This sort of motion wears out the edges on bail ledges in the toe and heel of your boots also. Lateral movement in low angles (30to 50 degrees) in wider applications in hardboots put a lot of torsional pressure on the bail hinge points and this is a lot of stress rather than merely "pressure" that would be distributed over the toe ramp or center plate in a more straight alignment in higher angles as the bindings face forward more. This is not the case with softboot bindings as there is a different set of mechancis involved and allow that movement in the lower leg and ankles to compensate.

I'm interested to try the new sidewinders. I had hoped the TD2 would have came with a new top plate that had the center removed so we could access the base, but I guess that would still be a TD3 then for all intent and purposes. I like the F2s but they are a tad "dainty" feeling. I perfer the robust strength and feel of the TD2s.

[bobdea]

Ive broken Burtons, Sno-Pros, Snopro RACE, and F-2 bindings. I have never broken a Bomber TD2, but I can definatley say I've had my rear toe bail open up on me when I was riding as Even though I have it rolled all the way out to accomodate my boot, I do get a good bit of flex, and it can cause the hind foot to twist in the binding. "PING!" is a sound you do NOT want to hear while carving a hard heelside as you will see your back leg at about chest level in a split second later and down you go if you are not prepared for said event happening. Having some movement is OK, but slop is bad. This sort of motion wears out the edges on bail ledges in the toe and heel of your boots also. Lateral movement in low angles (30to 50 degrees) in wider applications in hardboots put a lot of torsional pressure on the bail hinge points and this is a lot of stress rather than merely "pressure" that would be distributed over the toe ramp or center plate in a more straight alignment in higher angles as the bindings face forward more. This is not the case with softboot bindings as there is a different set of mechancis involved and allow that movement in the lower leg and ankles to compensate.

I'm interested to try the new sidewinders. I had hoped the TD2 would have came with a new top plate that had the center removed so we could access the base, but I guess that would still be a TD3 then for all intent and purposes. I like the F2s but they are a tad "dainty" feeling. I perfer the robust strength and feel of the TD2s.

the above is proof that you've misadjusted your binding since by your own account you've only been riding alpine part time for four years I guess we can't hold it against you but you should not be giving advice either.

and F2s are not THAT dainty

[NateW]

Where's the proof of misadjustment? I don't see it.

[Bordy]

Do bindings break: Yes all bindings break some times including metal bindings, lots of times bail breakage is caused by miss adjustment that places stress on the bails and sole plate.

I think Bob is being a wiseass and refering to this, as well as Jacks ECer riding lose binding coment.

Not sure why though, Correct me if I am wroung here Bob?

Funny how this post speculates about what racers do, there are of course some amazing resourses here in the form of real racers, retired racers, coaches, people currently particapating in the highest levels of the sport, n what not.

why not just ask what they do one of us will answer...

On average most folks I know break bindings, boots, boards and now plate systems regularly.

I think Nate is a good base line for the recrational carver, he broke a binding and doesn't want to do it again so he buys what he thinks is the best binding out there for him based on his own ideas of durability. Perhaps thats his only requirement, that the binding is durable and will last for years and years.

I am just quessing here mind you.

Other riders at may perfer board feel over durability, or flex, or just plain personal taste due to aplication.

There are a ton of soft boot bindings made, they all work differntly, Burton has been doing battle with base plates that break for a decade, yet more people use there binding then any other? Its the same thing with plate bindings.......

But Here on the BOMBER forum it is only normal for the TD line to get pimped, When the Catek forum was up and running Quess what binding id the "BEST" according to thoose guys.

I think Phokiaa is a good example of a metal binding failing, The binding is all metal and was seen as stronger by lots of racers, but the board feel was only so good. Then once they started breaking under riders feet then the got replaced by other bindings under racers feet that were not metal and lasted as long if not longer.

As for the poster who makes the "racer buy new bindings every year" post.

The truth is racers buy new bindings when the need to, if a pair last for years then we will keep rocking them with inspections and upkeep. When the break they go into the parts bin.... Its just that simple. Boards get purchased each year, boots n binders and plate systems get reused until the are out dated or unrepairable...

Again just what I know......

[pokkis]

Bordy: you wrote:

The truth is racers buy new bindings when the need to, if a pair last for years then we will keep rocking them with inspections and upkeep.

Should i read that that they inspect their bindings regularly, as i expect.

If so that might be difference between "them" and us sunday carvers, related bindings.

Atlest i remeber days when i was riding with Burton bails, i inspected them with magnifier and saw starting breakage before they reall broke, and changed bails. That saved me lots of troubles for me on mid ninteens :rolleyes:

[bobdea]

I was sort of being a wise ass but was being specific about Dave. he claimed to of broken a huge amount of bindings for a guy who has only been riding a short time(four years) and even then admittedly only part time as he usually rides soft.

I'd say that smoking a pair of bindings every year for a weekend warrior is exessive. In other threads he's talked about getting ejected from bindings frequently as well. add it all together and it sounds like someone has bindings that are not adjusted properly.

seriously, you've been to the SES and ECES, you know what I'm talking about. there are some people that don't have their gear even close to set up right. I'm not talking perfected stance I am talking super basic stuff that boils down to safety.

when someone breaks four different brands of bindings in a few years who does not get a lot of hill time that says there's probably something wrong that the rider is doing.