yyzcanuck Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 The old standard becomes or is now meaningless. I think the new reference standard are GS and SL, as the lengths dictate the turning abilities of these boards (see the clothoid relation). This would only work if there were two disciplines in alpine snowboarding... PGS and PSL. This is not the case. Alpine Snowboarding... not JUST for Racers!™ I feel radial sidecut boards will be around for a long time yet as they do have certain characteristics which many riders find user friendly. Predictability in a turn and speed scrubbing as dictated by the flex pattern are very favorable for a lot of riders as we are not all super heroes on the hills, we're only super heroes in the forums. Don't make fun of me!! I may not be a super hero on the hill but I play one on BomberOnline! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Let me know what you need Jack! I want the latest, greatest, baddest PGS board. I weigh 180. In fact, I will say based on the versatility of these new board shapes and Jack Michaud (his clothoid Coiler) will agree, they are quiver killers. Actually my M-spec Schtubby 170 is a straight 14.2m, but it is a quiver killer. The 160 Bruce is building me now will be multi-radius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Don't kid yourself Jack... it won't be just multi-radius, it will also be asymetric given BMV's recent post!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Don't kid yourself Jack... it won't be just multi-radius, it will also be asymetric given BMV's recent post!! Ha wouldn't that just be a perfect April-fools joke for Jack:lol: So heelside will be 11m to 12m And toeside 12m to 11m BV make it happen:eplus2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboardfast Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 I rode that Virus 186 GS asym that is pictured in Bola's photo March 8 at the Loveland carve session. I thought is was easy to ride and fun and I wanted to continue riding it but I did not because I wanted other people to try it. I felt comfortable on it from the very first run. I was able to do many runs on it before giving it back. I have only tried to race once and just ride for fun and am not afraid to try lots of different boards. Would'nt mind trying it again if I thought I could afford to buy it to make sure I would want it. It would be interesting to hear what other people thought of it . I think only 1 other person tried it that day but I could be wrong. Since I only ride for fun I can't see spending that much money for an alpine board. I wonder if this is the longest asym race board ever made as I don't remember any thing any longer than 170 made years ago in an asym? Fun to try something new that was old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Are we now bashing racers, superhero you? No I was not... by "we", did you mean to include yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Stop "Claiming" free riding requires a free ride shape. Any time there are not gates or jumps involed everyone is free riding. You can do it on any shape board. Some just work better some, some shapes for others. Saying that a PGS shape doesn't free ride is just stupid. Also messuring side cut is great for the internet rider since you can spend time dreaming how you think it turns while typing. Go ride boards on the hill then buy one. Every true dealer in the US has demo boards to try before you buy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 PS: my boards are make in Canadia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Stop "Claiming" free riding requires a free ride shape. No such a claim was made by anyone in this tread. Discussion was what is the best tool for the job and about size/shape of the turns the various boards do. Even Bola agreed that majority of the people were on what could be defined as FC shapes, on their last session. Last time I checked your site, you designed an awsome freeride shape, so I assume that's what you would recommend, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Go ride boards on the hill then buy one. Every true dealer in the US has demo boards to try before you buy.... Kind of what I was getting at a bit too. I didn't even know what the scr of my Burner is. And I don't care. The first turn was all I needed to know about this beauty. I am glad some of you delve into the intricacies (designwise - Bruce, Sean, Chris etc.) to help further the sport, but my God some of you spend a lot of time talking about the numbers like there is some holy grail to be found in those numbers. maybe with shred's X series schtubby or something there is. Maybe this is what we do when we can't ride - no blood, no foul I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Nice to have for big days, but not as the only board. I don't see why would you torture yourself with a pure race board while a lot of modern technology free-carve boards are available? Lots of my friends and all of my team freeride on their raceboards all day everywhere. I love riding a Full Blown PGS shape everwhere. Its no "torture" at all. Free ride shapes don't suit upper level riding. If your riding a free ride shape at a upper level then its probably failing or your not riding up a upper level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 No such a claim was made by anyone in this tread. Discussion was what is the best tool for the job and about size/shape of the turns the various boards do. Even Bola agreed that majority of the people were on what could be defined as FC shapes, on their last session. Last time I checked your site, you designed an awsome freeride shape, so I assume that's what you would recommend, no? Sounds like you "claimed" a free ride shape is better to freeride with in the post qouted before this??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Correct, I claimed that freeride shape is BETTER for freeriding, especially for the weekend warriors like me and 90% of members here. Just as I didn't claim that freeriding REQUIRED freeride shape. I could almost understand that a racer like you would prefer a WC GS board everywhere. As for me, I don't see why I should be wacking my Kessler down black moguls or trying to C-carve it on 30ft wide run? Or you are trying to tell us we should all be on real GS sticks all the time and no one should bother buying your B2 ? Silly Internet Snowboarding - SIS. Maybe perfect name for next creation: nice watered down freeride carver for internet wanabees? Mind you, Rossi / O'Sin might still have copyright on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 No such a claim was made by anyone in this tread. Discussion was what is the best tool for the job and about size/shape of the turns the various boards do. Even Bola agreed that majority of the people were on what could be defined as FC shapes, on their last session. Last time I checked your site, you designed an awsome freeride shape, so I assume that's what you would recommend, no? One post.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Correct, I claimed that freeride shape is BETTER for freeriding, especially for the weekend warriors like me and 90% of members here. Just as I didn't claim that freeriding REQUIRED freeride shape. I could almost understand that a racer like you would prefer a WC GS board everywhere. As for me, I don't see why I should be wacking my Kessler down black moguls or trying to C-carve it on 30ft wide run? Or you are trying to tell us we should all be on real GS sticks all the time and no one should bother buying your B2 ? Silly Internet Snowboarding - SIS. Maybe perfect name for next creation: nice watered down freeride carver for internet wanabees? Mind you, Rossi / O'Sin might still have copyright on it. Really...... This is your world? you make a statement, I say I don't agree with your statement then you say you didn't "claim it" Then in the very next statement you say "correct i claimed it"???? Thats internet snowboarding at its finest..... Let me get this straight you also say your a weekend warrior and lump your self in with what you think is the majority 90% of the folks here you say,, then you go on to mention YOUR Kessler, Why would you personally buy a Kessler if you are only a weekend warrior? By your own advise you don't need one.... so why do you have one? But you have one and thats the OP question is a PGS board managaable and should they be scared about free riding it all over. And as always so many posters mention how you only need a free ride shape to free ride with..... So Why do you own a kessler? How many days did you put in a race course this year? Just becuase you find the kessler diffacult for your own taste doen't mean it really is for every one? Also do you really think its wise to say no one should bother buying the B2 shape cuz you think its cleaver to say so, When the B2 is a PGS shape?? Have you ridden one do you know what its about our are you just guessing? Sort of.. you know internet snowboarding.......... I also like how you say" I could almost understand that a racer like you would prefer a WC GS board everywhere" I don't race anymore I go snowboarding, and since I have been riding WC race stock boards since 95 perhaps thats why I prefer them or maybe cuz they are better then the free ride crap out there. Last I checked I have been pushing this technology into the hands of weekend warriors for the last ten years. Only to be out internet snowboarded once again on BOL!!! So sweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 I never contradicted myself in any of my posts in this tread. Just read carefully. However, you keep on trying to put the words in my mouth. I'll type more, if need be, later. Off to riding now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Finally decided to look up what a clothoid is. Pretty simple, actually! This shape (or rather two clothoid sections arrange in mirror image orientation) have been used in roller coasters for 30+ years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 hate to say it buuuuut this clothoid stuff sounds a lot like what the ski companies were pimping in their race stuff years ago, like almost ten years ago. anyone happen to know any of the shapers at volkl or atomic? I could be wrong but the descriptions of these shapes match up. the only company I've heard use the word clothoid has been kessler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Race boards are awesome for freecarving if the turn size and speed are what you want to be doing. I disagree with the "beat yourself up with a race board" sentiment, unless you are looking for all-mtn riding. I think what a lot of people mean to say is that their favorite freecarve board would not be something that a racer would use in a PGS or PSL FIS race, such as my 170/21/14, or the good ol' Donek 171fc (171/19.5/11.2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Pukas Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 my main board right now is a 184 Rossi WC - I consider it to be an old school race board - and I got pretty beat up on it today in warm variable slushy-icey conditions. the new metal boards that I've ridden so far are soooo much more forgiving, hold an edge better, are more managable in variable terrain, and overall much more fun to ride. Especially the 185 Kessler of Bola's I got to ride @ Loveland (thnaks again Bola!!!). I'd be very, very happy to have that board as my everyday all mountain carver. I agree that the sidecut number is relatively meaningless w/ these new boards re: how they ride. Different board designs/shapes favor different types of turns - I found the Kessler to like bigger turns than the Prior 2010 WCRM 184 - but I could still make any size turn i wanted on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 If you do more search you will come across this statement "Luckily we can use the clothoid, whose shape varies the acceleration to minimize the stress on riders." Yeah that works great for railways, roadways and rollercoasters where gentle deceleration comes into play when entering the turn. However, I believe that has little or nothing to do with why the shape is used on a snowboard. The idea on a snowboard is to create a rapid change of direction (with little input) at the turn initiation and then... open up the arc in order to make it to the next gate in as short of time (distance?) as possible. So... using the rollercoaster analogy, we'd need to have the sidecut shape reversed in order to reduce the deceleration forces upon turn entry (when speed is high) and then when speed has been reduced we can use the tighter radius. I'm not an engineer but... to me... comparing the use of the clothoid shape in civil engineering and snowboarding is pure horse****. So... show me how my thinking is wrong (added for you ParaBola). So back to square one for me... I would say it's best not to compare the SCR numbers of the new race board designs with more traditional designs (or for that matter, the curves of a rollercoaster!). Better to be used only for comparing new race boards with new race boards (SG vs F2 vs Kessler vs COILER vs VIRUS (for you El DiaBola). BUT... you can't ignore them. The SCR (of a manufacturer's board lineup) is important for comparison purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 you checked it out Mike T. The math is not quite straight forward and some very elegant treatment comes into play for the nth degree clothoid when you evaluate the Fresnel integrals. LOL - I was a math major, being able to express something as an integral, DiffEQ, series etc was good enough to call it "simple". If Mathematica can evaluate / plot curves / etc it's good enough for use in the real world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 So back to square one for me... I would say it's best not to compare the SCR numbers of the new race board designs with more traditional designs (or for that matter, the curves of a rollercoaster!). Better to be used only for comparing new race boards with new race boards (SG vs F2 vs Kessler vs COILER). BUT... you can't ignore them. The SCR (of a manufacturer's board lineup) is important for comparison purposes. I would partially agree. Sidceuts on non-radial boards do not appear to be quoted in a consistent manner. My sense is that F2 and SG are both using the tail as "the number". Bruce has described how he does his shapes in his post above and gives the numbers for each section. I'll talk about Coilers since that's what I've mostly ridden: Comparing the sidecut numbers on two different NSRs is certainly meaningful but comparing say the NSR's variable sidecut to the Monster's variable sidecut will get you nowhere IMHO. Each of these has their own flex pattern which IMHO has a lot more to do with the way the boards feel and ride than anything else. I have 5 Coiler metals. 4 of them have some portion along their running length where the sidecut is "in the 14's" and all of them behave very differently. If asked "which one behaves like a 14m glass board from 5 years ago" the answer would be "none". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 This is so hilarious. 6-7 years ago you wouldn't even see sidecut radius printed on skis or mentioned in ski magazines. They were clueless about it and what it does and means. Now they're all about sidecut radius, and now we snowboarders are moving past it! Come on skiers, try to keep up. :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 This is so hilarious. 6-7 years ago you wouldn't even see sidecut radius printed on skis or mentioned in ski magazines. They were clueless about it and what it does and means. Now they're all about sidecut radius, and now we snowboarders are moving past it! Come on skiers, try to keep up. :p huh? they pasted numbers all over their printed materials, in many cases on the ski and sometimes even in the name of the ski. sitting through manufacture's clinics is either really interesting or ****ing dry as hell. with ski companies they tend to be dry with few exception but they are VERY informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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