Boot troubles

[Kex]

So I bought my first pair of hardboots (red Deeluxe Indy's, with thermoflex liners) a little over a week ago and tried them out on my local hill. The previous owner molded them once and barely used them - they look brand new in fact. Anyway, my test run was incredibly painful. I didn't feel the pain while riding so much, but the lift ride up was excruciating and I had to take a break after just two runs, which is saying something considering how pathetic my local hill is. After another two painful runs I called it a day in those boots and had to switch over to my trusty softies.

Anyway, that test run was with the boots how they arrived. I did not mold them before this test, and the previous owner had removed whatever footbeds were in the boots. I thought this was the reason for the horrible discomfort, so I went out to the store and bought some footbeds that seemed to fit my foot well and offered nice support. I then DIY molded my liner after reading three different articles on how to do it and using the combined knowledge of all of them. I made the toe box, taped sharp points on the boot, padded pressure points on my foot, put the footbed inside the sock I was wearing, put a nylon on the liner before sliding it into the shell, etc.

I got another chance to try out the boots yesterday, newly fitted and such, and the same thing happened. They seemed comfortable enough when I first put them on, but after just two runs, my feet were crying and I had to once again switch to my trusty softboots. Are all hardboots this uncomfortable?

If anyone has any advice or has been in similar situations in the past, I need help. Obviously I know people are going to tell me to go to a bootfitter and get them professionally fitted to my foot, but I'm beginning to lose hope after seeing practically no difference at all from when I originally tried them out. Should I just cut my losses and resell the boots or waste another one of the precious six moldings to try again at fitting them to my foot?

btw, the liner does't seem to fit around my foot 100% which could be part of the problem. when I molded them I tried to pull them around my foot a bit more with no results. Anyone else experience this?

[roman]

kex,

i would say find a store who has some 'normal' liners (no thermos) and try again. i'm feeling similar in thermos, but no problem with the standard liners. plus i use the 'shintronics', a very cool thing if anyone has real problems with shin pain.

[trailertrash]

maybe its not the boot? how are your bindings set up?

[Kex]

kex,

i would say find a store who has some 'normal' liners (no thermos) and try again. i'm feeling similar in thermos, but no problem with the standard liners. plus i use the 'shintronics', a very cool thing if anyone has real problems with shin pain.

I was thinking about trying regular liners but it doesnt seem to make sense that a generic liner would fit/feel better than one that forms to your foot. who knows though. Also, it seems to be more foot pain than shin pain. Its like my foot is being squeezed too tightly and the pressure is hurting it, even though the liner isn't especially tight. It isn't cutting off my circulation. Its like its pushing on pressure points but I cant pinpoint anywhere in particular that it is hurting, its pretty much my whole foot.

maybe its not the boot? how are your bindings set up?

my bindings are plastic f2 bail bindings. Since they are plastic, I cant imagine them being able to put enough pressure on the boot to cause any effect on my foot, especially since the boots are one of the stiffest - indys.

This theory might not be completely wrong though, because the left foot(regular stance) did seem to increase in pain after I snapped in before getting on the lift.(not immediately, but after a little while I noticed it had increased)

[roman]

i know from good results with formable insoles.

[Corey]

Is that your sock showing in the first picture? You definitely should have your entire foot covered by the liner! No idea how to fix that, sorry. :(

Also make sure your foot is evenly weighted for the entire cooling period when molding. I somehow managed to lift my arches subconsciously the first time I did it, that meant that the liner hardened narrower than it should have and left too large of a pocket above my foot.

How do your feet fit inside the bare shells without liners?

[Kex]

i know from good results with formable insoles.

I assume you mean the injectable foam ones right? if so, they're a little out of my price range. I'm a college student after all :(

Is that your sock showing in the first picture? You definitely should have your entire foot covered by the liner! No idea how to fix that, sorry. :(

Also make sure your foot is evenly weighted for the entire cooling period when molding. I somehow managed to lift my arches subconsciously the first time I did it, that meant that the liner hardened narrower than it should have and left too large of a pocket above my foot.

How do your feet fit inside the bare shells without liners?

Yes, that is my sock , as you can see the liner doesn't fit all the way around. I didnt think my feet were that wide though. I don't have to buy super wide street shoes or anything

Its hard to recall what i did with my arches, but I believe I had my feet evenly weighted. I did what they recommend in the custom molding guides, and while molding one foot, I put the other foot in its boot so they would have an "even keel" then stayed standing for a good 15+ minutes with both toes on a 2x4 and heels on the floor

[trailertrash]

kex, i mean what is your stance width, angles, cants etc...

[Mike T]

The gap in the liner is going to be a problem. I had that with what looks like the same liner you had, and had pain right in that area. I remolded and made sure to pull that part so that there was no gap before inserting into the shell and it helped... the newer Deeluxe thermos from my Track 700's don't have any such gap and are honestly more comfortable than my street shoes.

[Kex]

kex, i mean what is your stance width, angles, cants etc...

stance width is about 19" front the center of the front binding to the center of the rear

angles are 55 front/50 rear

not sure about cant. these f2s have these small plastic shims that tilt the binding and boot to the left or right(both tilt inward) *see picture*

The gap in the liner is going to be a problem. I had that with what looks like the same liner you had, and had pain right in that area. I remolded and made sure to pull that part so that there was no gap before inserting into the shell and it helped... the newer Deeluxe thermos from my Track 700's don't have any such gap and are honestly more comfortable than my street shoes.

how were you able to make the liner have no gap there? I was pulling pretty hard and trying to kind of massage the liner into place with no results. Also, since one of the main locations I am having pain seems to be the side of my foot(in front of my arch, behind the bone of my big toe), wont pulling it tight end up making the sides even tighter?

I have been contemplating remolding the boots with a massive amount of padding on my toes and foot in order to get a looser and hopefully more comfortable fit. bad idea?

[rhaskins]

I got a set of Track 325's last year and tried them out before I molded them. I used them for about 2 hours and hurt my heel due to heel lift, and that hurt stayed with me for the rest of the winter, it would get agitated every time I used the boots. Your feet may have the "memory" of the pain after they are put in the molded liners.

I took the boots to a bootfitter and got custom insoles and had him mold the liners, and it was about 1000 percent better than not having them molded. I still had a hurt heel tho that did not get fixed until after the season ended and it could heal up without any further agitation.

You could have the wrong sized liner or boot. without the liner in, how many fingers do you have behind your heel with your toes just touching the front of the boot? I guess the rule of thumb is 1 to 1.5 fingers - assuming all fingers are the same size:D. Actually 1 to 2 centimeters. More than that, and your shells are too big, less than 1 centimeter, and they are probably too small.

With your foot centered in the shell you should have some space on each side of your foot: 1 to 2 millimeters. If you foot touches anywhere when centred, your shell is gonna have problems with your foot (or vice versa), and will need to be shaved, ground, punched out. The last of the shell may not fit your foot shape. If the side of your foot touches the shell when you stand centered in them without the liner, you may just have to move on and get a different shaped shell.

If your shells fit propely, then your footbeds could be giving you problems because they take up too much volume. Some generic or ready purchase footbeds are thicker than customs, and that can make a problem when fitting and molding.

Finally, your liner could be the wrong size.

When at a bootfitter and getting liners molded, they ALWAYS have me in both boots and liners, and have the buckles firmly tightened on the boot or boots being molded, and have me stand on a 1" dowel or wood block with my toes to "set" the heels in the liner. Standing in only one boot will not give that boot the same static environment as standing in both boots.

I always go to a bootfitter with boots for snow.

Disclaimer: I do not work with boots, but I have purchased boots and have gone thru a lot of "expert" advice before I went to a real boot fitter and got things sorted out. I just got my UPZ's some different liners that worked out well with a lot of help at my bootfitter, and just purchased a set of Dalbello Krypton Pros which were fit also. I am a frequent flyer at my bootfitter. In my mind, it is money well spent.

Rick

[Silver Bullet]

Describe the foot pain. Is it a compression feeling around the arch or on the side of the foot? Does it feel better if you loosen the buckles while on the chair?

[GeoffV]

Kex, can you be more specific about where the pain is? By the looks of your liners it looks like it it could be coming from the top of your foot. The indentations from your buckles could be causing the pain.

When I went down a whole size last season and bought new T-700's I had some terrible pain at the top of my foot, where the middle buckle was putting to much pressure on my foot.

I finally went to a boot fitter who remolded my liner and added some foam over my foot during the molding process. This created a small cavity and compressed the liner more during the mold press. Next time I went out my pain was gone. Find a good boot fitter that has a hot box to mold thermo liners, they should know what to do if you explain where the pain is. It will be money will spent.

[Kex]

I got a set of Track 325's last year and tried them out before I molded them. I used them for about 2 hours and hurt my heel due to heel lift, and that hurt stayed with me for the rest of the winter, it would get agitated every time I used the boots. Your feet may have the "memory" of the pain after they are put in the molded liners.

I took the boots to a bootfitter and got custom insoles and had him mold the liners, and it was about 1000 percent better than not having them molded. I still had a hurt heel tho that did not get fixed until after the season ended and it could heal up without any further agitation.

You could have the wrong sized liner or boot. without the liner in, how many fingers do you have behind your heel with your toes just touching the front of the boot? I guess the rule of thumb is 1 to 1.5 fingers - assuming all fingers are the same size:D. Actually 1 to 2 centimeters. More than that, and your shells are too big, less than 1 centimeter, and they are probably too small.

With your foot centered in the shell you should have some space on each side of your foot: 1 to 2 millimeters. If you foot touches anywhere when centred, your shell is gonna have problems with your foot (or vice versa), and will need to be shaved, ground, punched out. The last of the shell may not fit your foot shape. If the side of your foot touches the shell when you stand centered in them without the liner, you may just have to move on and get a different shaped shell.

If your shells fit propely, then your footbeds could be giving you problems because they take up too much volume. Some generic or ready purchase footbeds are thicker than customs, and that can make a problem when fitting and molding.

Finally, your liner could be the wrong size.

When at a bootfitter and getting liners molded, they ALWAYS have me in both boots and liners, and have the buckles firmly tightened on the boot or boots being molded, and have me stand on a 1" dowel or wood block with my toes to "set" the heels in the liner. Standing in only one boot will not give that boot the same static environment as standing in both boots.

I always go to a bootfitter with boots for snow.

Disclaimer: I do not work with boots, but I have purchased boots and have gone thru a lot of "expert" advice before I went to a real boot fitter and got things sorted out. I just got my UPZ's some different liners that worked out well with a lot of help at my bootfitter, and just purchased a set of Dalbello Krypton Pros which were fit also. I am a frequent flyer at my bootfitter. In my mind, it is money well spent.

Rick

about the size, I have 26.7 and 26.8 feet and my boots are 26's, so according to the sizing guide, I am in the correct size. Also the liners definitely say 26 as well so they are correctly sized.

Doing the finger test or whatever, I have just about 1 cm behind my heel with my big toe just barely touching the front of the boot.

I never tested the width of the shell before and I think that may be the problem. With my foot flat on the bottom of the shell, I can feel the sides of my feet just slightly brushing against the sides of the shell, meaning there is practically no extra space on the sides of my feet for the liner. Maybe my boots could benefit from being punched or something.

The footbeds were generic. I tried on a bunch at walmart and picked one that supported my foot the way I liked. I then cut it to the right size to fit inside of the liner. Its pretty thin and low profile so I dont think that it would be causing a problem, especially because When I first tried the boots, They didnt have a footbed in them.

When I molded the liners, I did them one at a time, but while I did one, I would put on the other boot as well so that I could keep even weight on both feet and such. I also did what you were talking about and put my toes up on a piece of wood while I stood and let them cool.

Describe the foot pain. Is it a compression feeling around the arch or on the side of the foot? Does it feel better if you loosen the buckles while on the chair?

When I first tested the boots(before molding) the pain was concentrated on the tendon that runs down the length of your foot on your arch. It felt as if it was being pulled tight and stretched to the point of pain and discomfort. I thought that the reason for this was the absence of a footbed. Since there was no foot bed, there was no arch support and the boot could have been forcing my foot to sit flat, causing it to stretch.

After buying footbeds and molding the liners, the boots seemed to feel better on my feet, and I could bear having them on while fitting them and while walking around before riding. However once I tightened them up just to the point where they weren't loose, and could be ridden(not extremely tight by any means), the pain started. By the top of the lift they were hurting and after I got to the bottom and rode back up, it was excruciating.

It was hurting it more than one place, but the most noticable pain was in the front of the arch of my foot, just behind the bone your big toe kind of connects to(ball of my foot?). It was also hurting on top of my foot. Both spots felt as if they were being pushed on, like they were under pressure, but I had added padding when molding them.

loosening the top straps didnt help much. The ankle strap was already as loose as it could go, clicked onto the first notch, without being open so I couldnt loosen that one. Also, both of the times that my arch was hurting, the pain subsided gradually, once my foot was out of the boots(not immediately, but it didnt persist throughout the day)

[bobdea]

okay, this is what you need to do, get a moldable footbed to start. and maybe mold those liners again with the proper footbeds in the boot.

at that point, if the boot is too small get a shell stretch or do spot compressions on the liner. start with the liner first. seriously, just a milimeter here and there can make a world of difference.

[Kex]

what can I expect to spend if I need to get my shell punched out or something, along with getting my liners molded?

would it be a better idea to just resell these boots and find a boot like a head or an upz that may fit my foot better? What brand of boots have the widest boot or toe box(hope it isnt deeluxe :P)?

Also, anyone from or around PA know of a good bootfitter? I don't want to have to travel up to Vermont or out to Colorado just to get my boots fitted.

[wvrocks]

Brian at Pro Fit Ski and Skate in Leesburg, Va did mine. Of course I've also got a thread going about my problems with heel lift so...

[bobdea]

mold them yourself

not rocket science

punching boots out is not that expensive

$30 a spot for both boots but if you need more in the same spot they will keep going for free ususally.

molding your liners should be free if you do it when you get a footbed IMHO and many good fitters feel the same.

[rhaskins]

My bootfitter will charge $130.00 or so for custom footbeds and all the fitting is thrown in, - molding, grinding etc. - no matter how many times I come back for adjustments.

Rick

[Hotbeans]

Kex, I'm 3 hours west of you on 80. I have slightly wider than average feet and the head stratos pro's fit me the best. I did try on about 4 diff. brands and these felt the widest.

My suggestion? We both get a tickey to denver for a 4 day weekend, stop over and see Larry the bootfitter in boulder and tear it up with thor, et al. for the other 3 days.

that's gotta be worth more than 2 cents!!

[Kex]

Kex, I'm 3 hours west of you on 80. I have slightly wider than average feet and the head stratos pro's fit me the best. I did try on about 4 diff. brands and these felt the widest.

My suggestion? We both get a tickey to denver for a 4 day weekend, stop over and see Larry the bootfitter in boulder and tear it up with thor, et al. for the other 3 days.

that's gotta be worth more than 2 cents!!

sounds good to me, now I just need to convince all my professors to not assign homework and cancel classes for a few days so I can carve it up in CO. They'll understand right?:D

Update: So I took them out again on the local hill to try and pinpoint exactly where the pain was. I managed to find out that both feet felt it in the exact same spot. It definitely seems that my boot/liner are not wide enough, as both feet felt the same pressure pushing inward my arches(located towards the front of the arch, behind my big toe).

As a shot in the dark fix, while taking a break to let me feet recover a bit, I tried taking out my footbeds just to give my feet a little more wiggle room. The pain was practically gone. It seems strange that I was able to relieve the pain without widening the liner at all, but it seemed to work.

Before I took them out, I could not fathom the idea of taking a third lift ride up, yet afterward, I was able to stay in them for the rest of the time I rode. I started feeling a little bit of discomfort after 3 or 4 runs, but just by loosening the ankle and toe strap on the lift up, I made that go away. Best of all, without the discomfort, I was actually able to crank my buckles down once I was at the top, which improved my performance about tenfold!

I think i will still try to get the boots punched out a bit once I get the chance, but it seems like for now, without the footbeds, they are comfortable enough that I hopefully wont have to resort to the soft boots after two runs!

[rhaskins]

How thick are those footbeds? The custom footbeds I have are about 1/8 inch thick uniformly across the length and width. Yours could be too thick.

Rick

[Kex]

How thick are those footbeds? The custom footbeds I have are about 1/8 inch thick uniformly across the length and width. Yours could be too thick.

Rick

they are 1/4(left) and 3/16(right) thick at the problem area(the left footbed is actually thicker than the right footbed by about 1/16 of an inch... go figure, POS $8 wal-mart footbeds), they also seem to get a little thicker closer to the heel area.