inkaholic Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 The board is never decambered when in contact with the snow. The board decambers at the end of each turn which is used as a springboard to help with quick turn initiation. That is where accelerating the board below you comes into play. It can help to complete a turn early to help tighten the turns and transition early. Its a lot of fun. WTF?!? Stand on the board and what happens - IT DECAMBERS. Inclinate the board while riding and what happens - IT DECAMBERS. Doh, Ink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 The board is never decambered when in contact with the snow. The board decambers at the end of each turn which is used as a springboard to help with quick turn initiation. That is where accelerating the board below you comes into play. It can help to complete a turn early to help tighten the turns and transition early. Its a lot of fun. Ever seen someone on a ski or snowboard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Point taken, Ink, Doh. Thanks for the pleasant response. The board reverse cambers. Through the turn. It seemed like the question of riding with the knees "crammed together" caused the board to ride dead, trapping you in a turn. Not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ever seen someone on a ski or snowboard? FYI.....It hard to take someone seriously when there avatar is about weed. And yes, for the last 17 years I have seen this phenomenon. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 The point I was trying to get across is you feel stuck in a carve when you don't unweight sufficiently. The board will stay decambered and carving, this is why terminating carves happen nearly invariably in deep soft potato snow,(on a narrow alpine deck) because short of jumping out of the snow, you can't re-camber the board, stopping it from turning. I think it is generally accepted that Jack is an incredible rider. His technique is easy to learn, and it works. That's what I'm sticking with. If you don't want to take me seriously because of a facetious picture, more power to you. Don't wanna get into a pooflingfest, it just seems like some of your points are moot, and I'm curious how you explain them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Not asking you to change, just like talking about technique. One thing though, With the style I ride with, I also find it easier to maintain a turn to end everytime, if I want to. At the same time the turn can begin or end at will. That was what I was trying to say by getting trapped in a carve. But, I'm not trying to be an ass, just passing the time talking about carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 WTF?!?Stand on the board and what happens - IT DECAMBERS. Inclinate the board while riding and what happens - IT DECAMBERS. Doh, Ink Methinks JJ means "recambers"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 King C - just curious - didn't you just start carving this year? It seems to me that you are criticizing the technique of a guy who has been doing this for a long time without much experience to back up your opinions. JJ rides in a style that every carver on the slope rode 15 years ago. just because he uses an old technique doesn't mean he's wrong. Also - to your solution of "go stiff" - most of my broken boards have been stiffer ones. the softer ones (especially modern ones) are designed to give a larger range of flex before failure. My coiler metal is one of the softer boards I have ridden lately, and I have yet to find the limit of loading its nose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 King C - just curious - didn't you just start carving this year? It seems to me that you are criticizing the technique of a guy who has been doing this for a long time without much experience to back up your opinions. JJ rides in a style that every carver on the slope rode 15 years ago. just because he uses an old technique doesn't mean he's wrong.Also - to your solution of "go stiff" - most of my broken boards have been stiffer ones. the softer ones (especially modern ones) are designed to give a larger range of flex before failure. My coiler metal is one of the softer boards I have ridden lately, and I have yet to find the limit of loading its nose... I'll second that. Stiff boards are a thing of the past, IMO. With good technique, there's no need for uber stiff boards that limit what you can do on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 JJ rides in a style that every carver on the slope rode 15 years ago. just because he uses an old technique doesn't mean he's wrong. Well....it has evolved a bit over the past 15 years.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Well....it has evolved a bit over the past 15 years.:) I know...It just seems that every season, someone comes in here and discovers this art we call carving, and decides he's the expert because he reads a few hundred pages of internet postings and buys himself a nice set of gear. Then he posts a video of one turn on a green slope to get his cred.... then all of a sudden he's telling people who have forgotten more about this sport than he will ever learn that they're doing it wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkaholic Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I know...It just seems that every season, someone comes in here and discovers this art we call carving, and decides he's the expert because he reads a few hundred pages of internet postings and buys himself a nice set of gear. Then he posts a video of one turn on a green slope to get his cred.... then all of a sudden he's telling people who have forgotten more about this sport than he will ever learn that they're doing it wrong... Amen to that Brudda. Ink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 King C - just curious - didn't you just start carving this year? It seems to me that you are criticizing the technique of a guy who has been doing this for a long time without much experience to back up your opinions. JJ rides in a style that every carver on the slope rode 15 years ago. just because he uses an old technique doesn't mean he's wrong. Amen to that. Bomber has no culture of jong/newbie persecution, and that's a good thing. But...less than a year of carving under your belt and presenting yourself as an authority on what constitutes proper technique? Not very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 KC gets the award for the member to hit 1k posts the fastest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I try, when riding, to apply only the pressure needed to complete each section of the turn. I think that is why the shoulders parallel to the slope doesn't fly in my book. Not to mention all of the angulation. I find at times you need to "stretch out near the end of turns to move some of the force off the edge when needed. Just how I've always done it. Hey. I really like your riding style (you are "Milwaukee Jon", right?). What do you mean by that last sentence: "stretch out near the end of turns to move some of the force off the edge when needed"? Do you mean stretching out early in the turn so you have leeway to suck your knees in at the end of the turn when the pressure is building up, or do you mean something else? To answer your previous question of when people overpressure the nose: I think that happens when boards are very stiff. If I recall correctly you are on a fairly soft Burton board and weigh a reasonable amount, so you can properly decamber your board with your weight in the middle. I think a lot of people (like me) are on overly stiff boards for our weight (I'm on a GS race board from F2 and I weigh ~140lbs), so really the only way for me to get the thing to bend a tight turn on the steeps is by diving on the nose. If I don't, I can lean the board over and it will just track a fairly straight line (Jack's trigonometric article about sidecut radius and angles notwithstanding). If I dive onto the nose a little bit too much and hit a soft patch, it will fold the nose and throw me over the handlebars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I *think* I saw JJ at SES 05. If it was him, he rips. I agree with JJ that a more upright upper body is preferable and imo, more balanced and efficient, as opposed to bending too far forward at the waist. I like knees apart though, or at least able to act independently. Sometimes they end up together: The main thrust of my separate the knees article was to get people out of the 90's style of riding with the back knee tucked firmly into the back of the front knee, and held there as if by velcro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Guilty. Really didn't mean to question his technique at all, I was really just curious why he likes it. Obviously came across that way now that I re-read my posts. My bad. Shutting up now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Hey.I really like your riding style (you are "Milwaukee Jon", right?). What do you mean by that last sentence: "stretch out near the end of turns to move some of the force off the edge when needed"? Do you mean stretching out early in the turn so you have leeway to suck your knees in at the end of the turn when the pressure is building up, or do you mean something else? To answer your previous question of when people overpressure the nose: I think that happens when boards are very stiff. If I recall correctly you are on a fairly soft Burton board and weigh a reasonable amount, so you can properly decamber your board with your weight in the middle. I think a lot of people (like me) are on overly stiff boards for our weight (I'm on a GS race board from F2 and I weigh ~140lbs), so really the only way for me to get the thing to bend a tight turn on the steeps is by diving on the nose. If I don't, I can lean the board over and it will just track a fairly straight line (Jack's trigonometric article about sidecut radius and angles notwithstanding). If I dive onto the nose a little bit too much and hit a soft patch, it will fold the nose and throw me over the handlebars. Hi Ken, you got the right guy, we rode together in 05? I guess what I mean when I say stretch out is on toe sides by stretching out in certain situations it moves the center of gravity, or maybe center of mass? further away from the edge which keeps you from "tipping over the edge". In icy conditions, you may end up on your chest, but when actually riding snow, it just helps to keep the board in the turn longer? I'm not very good at explaining it. It's basically just decompressing near the middle of the turn, than the body stays where it is, and the snowboard is accelerated through the turn, which basically puts you back in a compressed position.(knees closer to the chest) If you can visualize what I am trying to say, good job. This picture shows it pretty well. Now if you can imagine the ending, the body slows through the turn, the board accelerates to lead into starting the transition. Granted this is riding in God's Country....Aspen....where there is no ice, no matter what the locals say, but even on hardpack it works. And for those of us who ride after January thunderstorms, it can work on those days too, you just have to commit to the turn and don't be tentative. As soon as you hold back, you're out of position, and the edge slips. I'm sure everyone who rides crap knows what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I *think* I saw JJ at SES 05. If it was him, he rips.I agree with JJ that a more upright upper body is preferable and imo, more balanced and efficient, as opposed to bending too far forward at the waist. I like knees apart though, or at least able to act independently. Sometimes they end up together: The main thrust of my separate the knees article was to get people out of the 90's style of riding with the back knee tucked firmly into the back of the front knee, and held there as if by velcro. Nice knees Jack. Anyways, I have been working seperating the knees/shoulders parallel this year as well. I was out tonight in icy conditions and made a few turns actually. It is definately a different feeling all together. Not riding that way that often I still feel like once I'm in the turn, I'm there to the end. I've used the phrase, "trapped in the carve". Do you know what I mean. I would guess with more mileage that feeling would go away? It feels like all or nothing to me. Fall line riding. Now, I've never seen video of you, but you do look much more comfortable in pictures than many others due. Of course, you have a lot more experience than many others. I plan on playing around more with it, but still find to have more freedom with less severe angulation with more weighting and unweighting kind of like a skier would ride/carve. Just curious if you know what I mean about feeling "trapped" or stuck for the duration of the turn. Also, fyi, I really am not pushing my knees together, they just end up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Stuck in a carve..very familiar feeling. Taper seems to help with the release. I really should jigsaw some taper into the tail of my burton, it's pretty badly damaged back there anyway..See what happens. I think what you're talking about is simply spending more time in the fall line to pick up speed before transitioning. When you say decompress, I assume you mean relax, and you probably reduce your edge angle, loosening up your turn radius. Now we're on the same page. Never understood the compression talk before.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Stuck in a carve..very familiar feeling. Taper seems to help with the release. I really should jigsaw some taper into the tail of my burton, it's pretty badly damaged back there anyway..See what happens.I think what you're talking about is simply spending more time in the fall line to pick up speed before transitioning. When you say decompress, I assume you mean relax, and you probably reduce your edge angle, loosening up your turn radius. Now we're on the same page. Never understood the compression talk before.. I still am not sure we are talking about the same thing. Maybe we are, not sure. I'm trying to say, that when entering a turn, toeside for instance, by dropping the knees to the snow, while keeping the shoulder parallel I find it harder to be in total control of the speed, direction, and duration of the turn itself. I'll ride the fall line at times as well, but just feel that I can react much quicker to changes in terrain keeping everything working together. Of course years of practice help too. I certainly am not looking for a tapered board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Maybe you're taking push-pull without the pull.. Decompressing as in pushing the board away from you in the fall line, and then letting the centripetal force push you back down onto the board. You have something going here..got any video? Now I'm really interested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 It is similar to push/pull, similar to the extremecarver.com boys, but with less reliance on the whole eurocarve thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I certainly am not looking for a tapered board. Why not? Have you tried one? You talk about getting trapped inc arves, and taper makes things in that department much easier. I personally love my boards to have taper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Just curious if you know what I mean about feeling "trapped" or stuck for the duration of the turn. Umm, maybe. Not sure though. Maybe I've just been doing it too long. I also desperately need to log some more hours on the board this year. The mojo isn't quite back yet. Out of shape and all. Desk job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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