philfell Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 I'll say a statement that has been echoed on this site for the past few years. If you haven't tried it you cannot comment with any amount of true education on weather it is a good thing or a bad thing. Jack as a coach that has worked with racers for many years there is actually little differacne between what a racers wants and what freecarvers want. The mistakes I see most freecarvers make are the same ones I see racers make. The boards now are actually pretty close. Open your mind to what the innovators are doing. If it works you get better products, if it doesn't then you aren't out anything so what do you care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 You've got an ego on you, buddy!Through the magic of the 'lectriweb, we can see you ride. That, combined with your own admission as to your lack of racing experience, leads me to beleive that you are not in a position to be reviewing this product. You definitely get the job done, Jack, but you should know where to draw the line, especially when it comes to pinning it on the lastest race stock. Where was this board promoted as race stock? I would be reviewing the board from the perspective of a freecarver in the eastern US. I think I'm qualified for that. If you want to think that's egotistical, I won't argue that. If I've been too big a meany in this thread to be loaned a board to review, I can suggest others out here. Like I said - freecarving, racing, different goals. Sounds like the board may pick up a racing endorsement. Wouldn't it be nice to get a freecarver's endorsement too? Or won't it work for that? As for who needs to put their money somewhere, I'm not the one selling a rockered board for $2k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Exactly. Opinions and speculations then , correct? I think you are misreading my statement. I wouldn't have to have any experience with a tinkler to make the statement I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 I think you are misreading my statement. I wouldn't have to have any experience with a tinkler to make the statement I did. Thanks for clearing that up. Folks, get your comments in quick. I can hear a "Lock" being prepaired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 keep it fun keep it affordable bring back the kildie flex ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 I'll say a statement that has been echoed on this site for the past few years. If you haven't tried it you cannot comment with any amount of true education on weather it is a good thing or a bad thing. One can apply their knowledge of theory to make a hypothesis about what might or might not work. I've never ridden a full-suspension mountain bike, but I can say I think it would be better than my hard-tail. My earlier post did say I've never ridden a rockered board so what do I know. But I am free to say that I don't think rocker is a good idea. Jack as a coach that has worked with racers for many years there is actually little differacne between what a racers wants and what freecarvers want. I strongly disagree. I have a ton of respect for you and what you do, Phil. But I can tell you as a freecarver I have absolutely no use for the flexy bindings like Burton or F2 that racers use. My race-derived metal board is awesome, but on the right conditions my glass livlier-than-hell boards are also awesome. No serious racer would be caught dead on a Madd with TD2s. If it works you get better products, if it doesn't then you aren't out anything so what do you care? I would like to try this board. I'm not going to pay $2k for something I can't imagine working well on the slopes I ride. My tone is affected by the fact that I get annoyed when every year someone comes here and says "hey, why not asyms?" and a few people chime in and get excited. Argh. They are being ignorant of history and I think this distracts from the forward progression of the sport. This thread appeared to be similar to that at first. I thought it was simply a random idea by someone with money to burn on a wild custom, not a researched design by a board builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Where was this board promoted as race stock? Ya... Fair enough. Not a bad idea, though, to have an endorsment from a rider who is known to be able to kill it in both a race course and outside one. To reduce the value of a $2000 board by half, for half a review might be seen by the manufacturer as not the best use of resources. As a coach that has worked with racers for many years there is actually little differacne between what a racers wants and what freecarvers want. The mistakes I see most freecarvers make are the same ones I see racers make. Phil makes the point that the needs of both are very similar. I want to add to that by saying that this is only true when you have a freecarver who really pushes his or herself. Many freecarvers seek only a pure carve and will not venture onto terrain that forces them to slide. The racer will use whatever is required to get them down the fastest. By virtue of this, the racer is more predisposed to have an ability to do it all. When we do CASI Level 4 alpine riding, the candidates who tend to have the most success are the racers and the riders who ride everything on their alpine setups. There are candidates who show up with great skills on groom and ice, but not on the overly steep or rough. This is probably because it's not as fun for them there, so they don't make it a part of their daily riding experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 As a completely neutral thread observer, I've really enjoyed this debate. While Jack's tone hasn't necessarily been the most objective, as a cyclist, I can totally see his point. There, as here, there are custom framebuilders who have lines months and sometimes years long. The frames are very expensive and their riders are their strongest proponents. But it's hard to trust the objectivity of someone who paid $2-5K on a bike frame that frequently resembles something that could be had for half the price (or less). As with the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes, there is some truth to the notion that people who pay a premium for a product (any product) will sing its praises regardless of the merits. I for one wouldn't mind seeing a non-owner opinion and I also hope that I'm not accused of "just not getting it" because I agree that an independent evaluation of a novel design is reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Again I see racers everyday and I see randoms freecarving often. Trust me the differance in what the two need are not as different as what many on this site try to make it out to be. Personally I have not ridden a full rocker race board. I have seen a few of them and have seem athletes ride them. I have ridden full rocker freestyle boards and could instantly feel how it could benefit alpine board design. NOT is all conditions/hills. But in some cases I feel it could be a big improvement. Here is why I feel it would be good on steep hills with firm snow. First of all the board is already partially bent, so you don't have to put much pressure on the board to get it to carve the turn size you will need in order to keep your speed in check. Second if you end the turn a little off balance or twisted the board is not going to want to launch you (which is very common in SL racing, know among the race community as the Slalom Whipper). The board will stay perdicitable. Think about it a board you can ride icey steep hill and actually carve every turn, not one or two and then have to add a speed check in, plus the board will be forgiving. This is for freecarving there are other racing applications but I'll keep it freecarving here. Also it would be great for beginners on all slopes. Put the board on edge and it carves instantly. That being said I think it would be boring on flat hills where you want your board to push back some. About four or so seasons ago a US ski team racer, Lauren Ross, tried rocker skies for SL racing. She was consistanly faster on the skies with rocker than her normal SL skies. There are FIS equipment rules that prevented her from using them on the world cup so the developement stopped there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Thanks for clearing that up. Folks, get your comments in quick. I can hear a "Lock" being prepaired. Why are you starting sh!t that isn't there, Bryan? Afraid of the criticism? There is no reason or indication that the mods are going to lock this down. I find the debate interesting - and as a former racer turned mediocre freecarver, I can see both points of view. I can't imagine rocker being useful outside of deep powder, but with Phil's comments I may change my thinking there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 To reduce the value of a $2000 board by half, for half a review might be seen by the manufacturer as not the best use of resources. Perhaps. In that case I'll send the board on to you or Phil or Bordy when I'm done. :D Phil makes the point that the needs of both are very similar. I want to add to that by saying that this is only true when you have a freecarver who really pushes his or herself. Who's got the ego now? ;) I'd like to believe I push myself. Sugarloaf is pretty darn steep. By virtue of this, the racer is more predisposed to have an ability to do it all. I 99.9% agree, and was not for a second saying anything to the contrary of this. I'll reserve that 0.1% for the few racers I've seen who knew how to go friggen fast, but weren't very good freecarvers. But they weren't world-level racers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 There are FIS equipment rules that prevented her from using them on the world cup so the developement stopped there. Really? You'd think that doing anything, short of putting a motor on them, would be reviewed. One persons unfair advantage is levelled once evryone else gets on the program. I can't remember, but what happened when shape skis were introduced to racing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Yeah, I don't have my ski rule book handy, but there is a rule against twin tips for ski racing and a rocker ski falls under that. There are so many rules for ski equipment it's silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Again I see racers everyday and I see randoms freecarving often. Trust me the differance in what the two need are not as different as what many on this site try to make it out to be. Again I disagree. I want/need stiff bindings. I've ridden Burtons after Bombers, and it was simply un-fun and frankly scary. Personally I have not ridden a full rocker race board. ...Here is why I feel it would be good on steep hills with firm snow. First of all the board is already partially bent, so you don't have to put much pressure on the board to get it to carve the turn size you will need in order to keep your speed in check. Ok, so now that we're both theorizing without having used a rockered race board... conversely, you will need to make larger movements/shifts in order to pressure the nose or tail of the board, unless the board is built hella stiff. Second if you end the turn a little off balance or twisted the board is not going to want to launch you (which is very common in SL racing, know among the race community as the Slalom Whipper). The board will stay perdicitable. Sounds reasonable. Think about it a board you can ride icey steep hill and actually carve every turn, not one or two and then have to add a speed check in Bah. Use a shorter radius board then. My 158 will carve steep ice down the whole run. That is, when I don't have to stop and catch my breath! Also it would be great for beginners on all slopes. I've taught hundreds of beginners and I think rocker would be a nightmare. They already have a tough enough time getting spun around backwards. Put the board on edge and it carves instantly. A cambered board does this too. About four or so seasons ago a US ski team racer, Lauren Ross, tried rocker skies for SL racing. She was consistanly faster on the skies with rocker than her normal SL skies. There are FIS equipment rules that prevented her from using them on the world cup so the developement stopped there. Now that IS interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Perhaps. In that case I'll send the board on to you or Phil or Bordy when I'm done. :D I don't want it. I think it should be tested by the best in hardboots and I'm not that by any stretch. For a $1000 hit plus shipping, the builder would be right to hold out for this type of opinion. Got a bindingless board, Tink? Send it to me... I'll give it a go. Who's got the ego now? ;) I'd like to believe I push myself. Sugarloaf is pretty darn steep. I've done a little racing, nothing serious, but ruts are a major factor that we simply don't have to deal with in freecarving. Not unless you force yourself to deal with them and that's my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 i put fort harry eggar as the man for the job:cool: if 250 k on skis works for him any board would be like carving putty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 i put fort harry eggar as the man for the job:cool: if 250 k on skis works for him any board would be like carving putty huh? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Gee, I don't know what made me think of this oldie but goodie: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17363 FWIW, I can't think of a single skill that I've learned at a race camp that didn't help me freecarve more competently and enjoyably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 As a completely neutral thread observer, I've really enjoyed this debate. While Jack's tone hasn't necessarily been the most objective, as a cyclist, I can totally see his point. Thank you Shawn. I apologize to Pokkis and Tinkler for the tone. My tone is affected by the fact that every year someone comes here and says "hey, why not asyms?" and a few people chime in and get excited. This really annoys me. They are being ignorant of history and I think this distracts from the forward progression of the sport. This thread appeared to be similar to that at first. I thought this rockered board was simply a random idea by someone with money to burn on a wild custom, not a researched design by a known board builder. Now I realize it is, so I apologize for the tone. I still don't think it will work well here, but I'm ready and willing to be proven otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donek Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Hey Donek, get off this site and get to work:):):) Hey Bruce, My production day ends at noon (starts at 6:00am). I started reading before I took my daughter out to shop for Christmas and just got back to it. I've never really bought into the early rise in the shovel, but from reading between the lines I can see it might make core production a bit easier on the metals. You could thicken things up in the tip and tail and artificially soften the shovel by rockering it. The problem I had with the rockered board I rode (wasn't one of yours) was that, even though the board was damp, it went over everything when riding flat. I like a board that goes through that pile of soft snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglow Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 philfell has a point, try riding the board before you makes claims. Lauren Ross a former member of the US Ski team trained on rockered skis in a Slalom course and loved them. Then FIS band them, because they were too radical to be called a ski. Classic OLD MAN FIS. No progression with out change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coloradoking Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 i mean no sort of disrespect when saying this but: being strictly a racer; and riding strictly race gear; i would have to say that the rocker would get a little unstable when moving into the fall line, in the time where your board is flat and moving into the next turn, you would have no nose/tail pressure on the snow; and should you hit anything interesting (ruts and ice tend to pop up alot ) you'd be a little screwed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pow Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 I like a board that goes through that pile of soft snow. Yeehaw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Just because the board has rocker does not mean that there is no pressure on the tip or tail while in the turn. Talk to Fawcett about why he liked the burners so much in the transitions and you can use that logic on why a rockered board could provide some benefit. The idea of riding ruts fast is to find the top of the rut put the board in it and let it happen. Why would a board that is pre-made into the shape of a carve turn be bad for this application? When you get to the end of the rut the board doesn't want to snap back and possibly throw you, it is simply there ready to roll over into the next rut. Again not saying a rocker board is the end all, but I do see legit applications for both racing and freecarving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Hey Bruce,My production day ends at noon (starts at 6:00am). I started reading before I took my daughter out to shop for Christmas and just got back to it. If I quit by noon, my wife would lock the door on the house and leave me in the shop till I built her a new board:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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