Dr D Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 the nines would work for my kid. I rode my ntypes for the first time this year yesterday and noticed that I felt sloppy on them. I have been riding the catek and malamute setup thus far and it is definitely stiffer. The N type setup gets better as my ankles get back in shape. ITs definitely something that requires more strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I was out in warm spring conditions Sunday this week. It looked primo for the carver and HB so I put them on. I did 2 runs, stuffed the nose and almost "ate-it" a few times and said "F-this!" Put on the soft boots and was out carving without fear of burying the nose in crud and heavy slop. Soft boot carving definately has its place and time, and this was indeed a day where it proved again its worth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Przemek/Brooklyn Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Quote: Well, thy won't quite spell it out, but would like to see everyone on duck or at least 0deg rear. 21/6 was about highest angles I was able to get away with. 45/35 was pure shock for the system, while at 35/20 I still wasn't getting any lessons assigned. end quote: Sounds like a dream to me no classes free ticket you can ride as much you want. When i was teaching in windham last sesson i was happy not to teach, i had no advanced and carving classes beginers only sorry i would rather ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 There is a reason you can not buy 3 strap bindings anymore- because they just suck (sorry Softbootsailor- I know you LOVVVE them...but I am quite sure about this.) and 3 strappers encourage a riding style that does not apply to wider soft boards.- John. John... I call Shenenigains on this. Ive been in all sorts of bindings, and everyone who rides any my 3 strap boards is amazed at the responsiveness and absolute comfort in them at any angle. The real reason why they are not made is because "they are too slow to get in and out of". It takes me 4 seconds longer to get in and out of..... I prove people wrong all the time that "their bindings are better" Id love nothing more than to see a good quality 3 strap setup come back on the market. Hardboots even at the "Soft" level are no where near as soft as my airwalk Advantages and a set of 3 straps. You do not need to limit the straps, only the amount of movement in the boot and ankle area. Newer dual shell boots..... really defeat the 3 straps. older boots with no liner is where its at with 3 straps/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGogoussier Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 They carve just great w Driver X boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 There is a reason you can not buy 3 strap bindings anymore- because they just suck (sorry Softbootsailor- I know you LOVVVE them...but I am quite sure about this.) and 3 strappers encourage a riding style that does not apply to wider soft boards.- John.John... I call Shenenigains on this. Ive been in all sorts of bindings, and everyone who rides any my 3 strap boards is amazed at the responsiveness and absolute comfort in them at any angle. The real reason why they are not made is because "they are too slow to get in and out of". It takes me 4 seconds longer to get in and out of..... I prove people wrong all the time that "their bindings are better" Id love nothing more than to see a good quality 3 strap setup come back on the market. Hardboots even at the "Soft" level are no where near as soft as my airwalk Advantages and a set of 3 straps. You do not need to limit the straps, only the amount of movement in the boot and ankle area. Newer dual shell boots..... really defeat the 3 straps. older boots with no liner is where its at with 3 straps/. I totally agree with you that old boots with no liner work better with three straps... mostly because hte old boots had horrible support as well as no flex limiter.. If you take a look at the construction of The Burton Andy Warhol snowboard boots ? the cuff has a specially designed rubber flex limiter built into it. That?s something that?s very special about the new snowboard boots. And for that reason alone I can no longer recommend that anybody continue using a snowboard boot that is more than one year old, or uses a design without a true hinge for a ankle cuff. The new boots are simply safer, and allow you to ride at a much higher rate of speed without risk of injury. In the old boots that were not dual shell designs, none of those had any sort of flex limiting other than the boot materials themselves. As a result if you went too fast and generated too much G. force, you could seriously injure your ankles. Last year, quite by accident, I managed to throw myself off of a cliff ? I fell about 12 feet straight down, and saw that the nose of my board was going to hit the snow first going straight down. I braced for the impact immediately expecting to hyper extend my ankle and break it in several places. But the Burton snowboard boot ? with its flex limiter, absorbed all of the impact ? I didn?t even sprain my ankle. That was the moment I became a believer in the quality of the new Burton snowboard boots. So even though a three strap binding with an old boot can offer better performance than a two strap binding with an old boot, I absolutely cannot recommend the use of that system. The top strap in a three strap binding can help couple the boot better to the binding so that there is some sort of flex limiting, but unfortunately because the old boots do not have a free flexing ankle cuff ? when the boots go into extreme flexion in the lower part of the boot tends to blouse and get wider allowing your forefoot to roll within the boot. This can lead to a broken ankle ? or a severe sprain. There are issues with the new Burton snowboard boot ? the SLX because of the design of the heel spine, there are problems when you go into extreme toe side flexion ? because the hinge point of the heel cup is lowered to below the heel cup, and as a result the entire heel cup flattens and tilts forward ? the end result is crushing pain to the back of your heel. In a less expensive Andy Warhol boot ? there is a quick change of width of the heel spine and as a result the hinge point occurs at the very top ? just slightly above the top of the heel cup, so you do not have any of that smashing force of the heel. When you couple the flex pattern of the Andy Warhol snowboard boot, which is only a five on a scale of 1-10, and then you add a high quality binding with two straps where the ankle strap is more than just a compression strap, it actually adds to flex resistance similar to that of a tongue of a hard boot ? you get something that nearly approximates a nicely flexing softer hard boot like something similar to a raichle 124. I can understand that a lot of people think that directly coupling the high back to the back of the boot is a good idea. But in practice, it is not. Because of the hinge point of the high-back binding is nowhere near the hinge point of your ankle, it cannot flex properly with your boot. Also if it is directly coupled with your hard boot during a heel carve and you are not completely in a track and committed to that turn ? you can have issues with heel side chatter. When the high back is not directly coupled to your snowboard boot, you can begin the turn using nothing more than the stiffness of your soft boots, when finally you need additional support, the high back can come in and assist you. The real problem comes when you use a high back that is too rigid. When coupled directly with a soft boot, you get a system that is even more rigid for a heel side turn then a hard boot. It gets kind of ridiculous. What you really want is something that closely emulates the flex pattern of a hard boot during a heel side turn while carving. That means that the high back should follow the back of your boot easily, especially when moving laterally or longitudinally on the board, if the high back does not follow your ankle and lower calf, it is too stiff, and is likely much stiffer than the back of a hard boot. If they wanted to make a three strap binding that actually worked, they would make sure to move the hinge point of a high back to be very close to a person?s normal hinge point. That would be very difficult, though not impossible. It would involve an extra binding part. It makes absolutely no sense to couple a three strap binding that has a hinge point on the high back that does not line up with the hinge point of your ankle. That creates very strange flex patterns ? and you would be much better off with something that works in a biomechanical manner that is correct. I think the argument is that bindings that are well designed with two straps used in conjunction with quality snowboard boots with hinge points in the correct places are better than 10-year-old three strap bindings with inferior boots. I have lots of inferior snowboard boots. I don?t use them anymore. I don?t think many people are interested in comparing the performance of a 10-year-old binding with two straps and single shell boots that are soft with a 10-year-old binding with three straps and single shell boots that are soft. Why would you want to limit your ability to ride a snowboard? I think the better comparison is a current high quality snowboard soft boot that is less than 16 months old being used with a high-quality current production binding with two straps ? as compared to a current high-quality snowboard boot being used with a three strap binding that is old. ________ SUZUKI TL1000S HISTORY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 What are your feelings on the Flow bindings, for soft boot carving? I have my daughter, and step-daughter in Flows and they both absolutely love them. My step-d is a fairly decent carver in them. I'm spitballin' here, but hear me out. I always had heel lift in whatever soft boot I used, when I saw the Cateks with lift/cant I wondered why no one did that before. If a person were to get the old fixed 7 degree cant for the back foot, set Flow bindings on your board of choice (in my case, a 164 Rad-Air LSD) run about 35f/28r angles with modern boots, would that be a good setup? What boot? The Andy Warhol? I tried on a bevy of boots at a local shop, did not like any of them, including one Burton pair that I don't remember the name of. Just thinking out loud here, soft carving is where I started, foot pain is what keeps me in hardboots on piste and backcountry. (plus crampons, splitboard icy traverses, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 They carve just great w Driver X boots. SWEET!! The best of both worlds!! Fast, stiff, infinitely adjustable. Nice work!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Flow.. I'm no authority on them. I rode the older models which did not have really good flex patterns and a horrible overhanging heel cup. Those issues look like they have been remedied on the newer flow bindings I saw this year- but I am not sure the flex pattern of the top piece can emulate the tongue flex of a hard boot. They are easy to get in and out of though. The new Catek SP fastec looks to have "flow like" ease of use combined with good straps and flex pattern of a quality soft binding. I should have a pair of these to ride and review soon. Using a 7 degree cant for heel lift on a flow should alleviate the booting out from the rear heel cup.. it might be nearly ideal...except what about the front binding heelside heel cup hitting? There are not a lot of good softboots out there. For instance last years Burton ION.. was good and stiff..but lacked the hinge for the ankle and as a result it limited your riding- the lower model boots were actually better...though slightly softer. Could you imagine riding in a hard boot that could not flex forward from the ankle at all??? Like riding in rear entry boots on a snowboard..that was the ION. (And some malamutes too...) The Andy Warhol boot is just a Burton HAIL model boot with a lenticular panel on the sides (which I think gives slightly more lateral stiffness for high stance angles) . The boot was a big success for Burton and many other boots in thier line up incorporate this style hinge. Notable problem... the SLX has the same hinge but the hinge limiter kicks in a lot earlier so it feels very robotic like a cross between an ION and a HAIL. While I can hold slightly better on hard snow and perhaps ride a bit faster with the SLX (Which causes me extreme pain because of the design of the rear spine) In better snow I can actually ride faster and carve lower with better form with the Andy Warhol boot because the flex pattern is better.. Sure I'd like a stiffer boot than the HAIL...or Warhol... but not if I lose the range of motion of the flexing cuff. The SLX sorta feels like a hardboot where the buckles stack on each other durning flexion and suddenly the boot stops flexing anymore during mid flexion. Not desirable for soft boot carving.. The Hail stops flexing but does so in a progressive manner which is much more like a entry level hard boot. However the Burton SLX for most riders with low stance angles who do not induce extreme flexion into the boot- and have $499 to burn.. likely would love it. (read: fat investment banker). I paid $68 for each of my Warhol's at a 75% off sale. I bought a 10 and a 9.5 . The 10 already has packed out with about 30-40 days of riding. hello warranty... luckily I ahve hte 9.5. Oddly enough even though the 10 is a 1/2 size too big... having the larger size allowed more of a wrap around my tibia..and as a result gave more hardboot type performance.. so long as I really tightened the laces to prevent foot roll. ALSO.... the new insoles have stiffer zones out at the edges to stop foot roll..Burton is really starting to pay attention.. DID I say that?? ________ Ford vulcan engine specifications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skully Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 American Ski company does that.. You have to ride what they sell _ at least it was that way a few years ago.. At the "formerly ASC" resort where I work, ASC preached that they wanted you to ride what they sold, but they never actually enforced it... Now that ASC no longer exists, It's not an issue at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 At the "formerly ASC" resort where I work, ASC preached that they wanted you to ride what they sold, but they never actually enforced it...Now that ASC no longer exists, It's not an issue at all. Another one bites hte dust. Those Flowteks look pretty cool.. looks like they could hit a mean heelside. ________ Plymouth Deluxe Specifications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical.Experience Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Well this thread has been an inspiration for me... I decided to make my own 3 straps binding system to see if there is any improvement by using it. I found the response I get using the 3rd strap is definitely night and day if I compare to the standard 2 straps. It is way faster to pass from an edge to the other. I can carve high speed with this set-up, control and precision are highly up-graded. It let you jump in comfort and stability that SB provide. Should be experimented in SBX... Its easier to carve but also allow you to shred anytime and this is the versatility I was looking for my first SBX board. I wanted an hybrid that works well in any condition and I think I found MY recipe. The goal is not to compare SB to HBooting but has I always rode HB before, it popped in my head instinctly... The result of what I felt: On very hard pack snow, nothing equal the edge hold of HB period. In softer condition, I could carve almost like using a HB set-up but not enough to say: Oh yes it's the same thing... Like I said earlier, I didn't build the set-up to compare both technique but to provide me versatility and carving abilities riding a SB set-up and in that avenue, the set-up amazed me. I know guys here swears by Malamute's and some for Burton's boot. I don't want to start a debate but DC's have a "hinge" pattern in their construction that is very close to what we look for when shopping for hard boots. Also take a look at the exterior construction of the boot 2 seconds... There is also NO heel lift period. I considered many factors in the construction of my first prototype. There is a calculated flex in the strap that is design accordingly to my weight. Thus, it gives me a certain amount of calculated front flexibility. I read carefully what JG said and applied some concepts mentioned, thanks JohnG . The strap is removable almost instantly with 5 snaps for powder days. The strap is mould 3D with the boot and the angle of the bindings, each of them specifically for the right and left foot. To avoid the frontal boa, I had to split the strap in half and it created a more efficient holding, non movable strap. The top part is at the position were the booster strap should be. Every friction points is re-enforced with layers of leather. The high back is fixed with straps of carbon fiber covered straps. All the "high back sox" is removable in about 30 seconds. The "sox" is designed 3D as well to fit perfectly the concave, curved, inward, base line high back. So that was my 09 version of the 3 straps bindings, using 09 boots. Conclusion, it is a blast to ride with!:D Cheers, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 looks really cool! But you need to change one more thing to make it really good. PM me... ________ Teen pregnancy forums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Ace* Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Didn't know where to post this pic. Saw it on the Copper Mt. website. Not bad for softboots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Something about that is fishy....in an EC turn the board is flat at that point in the turn and the body compressed.... Didn't know where to post this pic.Saw it on the Copper Mt. website. Not bad for softboots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjulezD Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 Don't flame me for saying that you can't do EC carves on a soft setup, but yeah, this is definitely fishy. The movement of sthe snow and the rather minimal steep rather suggest a radical, yet sylish, emergency stop than a EC carve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 I have to say DR D/ this made me LOL. http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=13480&stc=1&d=1223911610 thankyou :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 lol all you want:eplus2:I rode it a whole season that way. pretty much trashed that pair of boots tho:ices_ange I am now graduated to a set of catek fr2 and malamutes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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