Home Birth

[Jack M]

home birth, yeah, has some issues but so does a hospital.

my neighbors won a law suit because the hospital shot up the woman with the wrong drug while she was in labor and it ended up almost killing her and caused brain damage on the kid. this never would of happened during a home birth for obvious reasons.

I also know a woman who's had three of her four kids at home and everything went fine.

either way you cut it having kids is ****ing dangerous.

This sounds a lot like the argument against wearing a helmet on a motorcycle because in certain circumstances if you fall just right the helmet can break your neck. Yeah, in rare cases the hospital effs up, but get real. Birth is a routine process that they have down to a science in a hospital.

No, it's more dangerous at home. The list of potential disasters that can happen at home includes things that are quickly addressable in a hospital. Like the cord being wrapped around the baby's neck. Or in my son's case, the kid getting stuck. Or in my brother's case, the contractions causing his heart rate to drop. No way to see those coming at home. And then what? Jump in the car. Stupid. I know of too many mothers who had emergency c-sections to make home birth an acceptable risk.

A quick google search shows 30% of all births in the US are c-section. I can't find what percentage of those are emergency, but <i>elective</i> c-section is rare and discouraged.

I also found this brief list of some of the reasons for emergency c-section:

* labor stops or isn't progressing as it should (and medications aren't helping)

* the placenta separates from the uterine wall too soon (called placental abruption)

* the baby's shoulders are stuck in the birth canal

* the umbilical cord becomes pinched (which could affect the baby's oxygen supply) or enters the birth canal before the baby (called umbilical cord prolapse)

* the baby is in fetal distress — the heart rate drops, doesn't change at all, or is too fast or too slow

* the baby's head or entire body is too big to fit through the birth canal (which is rare)

[Gecko]

there really are two sides to this, my wife worked in a L&D unit for a year while she was in school, often delivering 8 or more babies a shift....Maria, the best person she worked for, was a Midwife Nurse Practicianer from Ireland...a larger than normal percentage of babies born in the USA are high risk for one reason or another. I'm not sure why this is but it's a lot more common in our culture than others. Anyway midwives have been traditional for normal childbirth in many countries for a lot longer than doctors, even eveidenced in rural portions of the USA midwives have a better infant mortality rate than doctors, but the important issue here is still education....the so called "Lay Midwife" (aka traditional midwife, traditional birth attendant, granny midwife and independent midwife) which is increasingly popular with the touchy feely crowd are no better than shop boys who spend a year watching how to work on cars.

These days f$% ups in hospitals are as common as fender benders in Boston/NYC most of the time it's minor and not life threatening but with the increase of managed care fewer of the people providing that care are highly educated...I personally wouldn't go to Yale medical center for headcold never mind let them perform surgury on anyone I know and love...too many stories about that place scare me.

[skatha]

home birth, yeah, has some issues but so does a hospital.

my neighbors won a law suit because the hospital shot up the woman with the wrong drug while she was in labor and it ended up almost killing her and caused brain damage on the kid. this never would of happened during a home birth for obvious reasons.

I also know a woman who's had three of her four kids at home and everything went fine.

either way you cut it having kids is ****ing dangerous.

No vax, most of the people who preach that are concerned about the mercury in them and some of the vaccinations also are not effective for various reasons so there's no reason to give them(at least that's what these people think).

My take on it is that there's enough lack of research to reasonably say that the mercury may not be safe so a alternative should be found, one less thing to worry about and a very large portion of the no vax people would be satisfied. I do have to say that some of their arguments are convincing as far as making a case that there is a problem with them as far as the chemicals that are used as preservatives and solvents.

There hasn't been mercury/thimerisol in vaccines for over 10 years...try again.

There have been LOTS of studies trying to prove a link between thimerisol containing vaccines and ANY problem, including autism-NO LINK.

Vaccines do work, people who do not vaccinate their children are depending on the people who do to keep their own children healthy. The medical term is "herd immunity" meaning there has to be a minimum of susceptible nonimmune individuals in a population for a virus to spread. So, in a sense, they-the nonimmunizers- are freeloading on the general population.

Meningitis in a newborn will probably result in that particular child being deaf, if the child survives. Jack was right, the meningitis is a strep meningitis and is the result of 1. prolonged rupture of membranes and 2. the mother having strep colonization of her cervix. All pregnant women seeing a OB have a culture obtained at 28 weeks looking for a strep infection-if present, the woman is treated.

Sad for the kid-he had no choice in the matter.

As an aside, the rate of death in women in the developing world during pregnancy is anywhere from 20-50 per 1000. In the US, that number is down to 5-10 per 1000. Note that it is NOT zero. Pregnancy is a dangerous time in a woman's life-not only because of health concerns but also because that time is the time a woman is mostly likely to be abused or killed by her domestic partner.....

I agree about home-schooled kids-they're dweebs. Kids learn more than just the "three R's" at school, they learn interpersonal relationships among equals-something they can't get from hanging out with mommy all day.

So yes, I agree.....these people can be self-serving a-holes.

Rant over

[BobD]

The rise in incidence of autism has a lot more to do with improved diagnostic techniques and a broadened definition of what is included in the spectrum of autism related disorders. To my knowledge, no study has ever conclusively related vaccines to autism with repeatable results.

Absolutely agree. Just pointing out that the current argument is the combination thing, not the mercury thing.

BobD

[BlueB]

BlueB - I respect your opinion, but nobody had natural resistence to smallpox or polio, and without vaccines those diseases would still be causing death and damage to untold millions. Is you were to shift your statement to "antibiotics" I would wholehartedly agree.

Polio is a devastating desease and kids certainly should be vaccinated against it.

Majority of people don't have enough resistence (some do) to not get sick of Smallpox and few other diseases, but we have enough resistence to survive them, mostly without consnquences. Smallpox is mostly not life threatenning in childhood and it's discutable if innoculation should happen.

It's only logical - if our natural resistance is not put to work, from generation to generation, it would eventually go asleap. Only if an efficient global vaccination campaign is done for smallpox, over few decades, they would become extinct like Variola. That would be efficient and acceptable, but it aint happenning. So, although as the individual you are better of vaccinated, as the species we are better of without the vacine... Not even to mention the flu vaccines... Just remember what happened to aboriginal American population when they came into contact with Europeans and deseases they havn't had imunnity against.

Pharmaceutical industries certainly want us to believe that vaccines and medications are required for absolutelly everything. Even more, they want the governments to make it compulsory. To the extent where anything non-approved, non-prescribed would become illegal, as it dosn't fill the right pockets. Doctors happilly play along as it fills their pockets too (at least in US and South African systems, can't say it so much for the Canadian and old Yugoslav systems, and I'm not familliar enough with other countries). It's like nifty little money making machine that computer software / hardware companies have developed. Do I need the new OS, hell no - I need the old one to work without bugs. To bad as the bugs are supposed to be sorted out only on new OS. Do I need a new computer, hell no, but the new OS won't work on the old one... I certainly digressed from the topic...

[bobdea]

This sounds a lot like the argument against wearing a helmet on a motorcycle because in certain circumstances if you fall just right the helmet can break your neck. Yeah, in rare cases the hospital effs up, but get real. Birth is a routine process that they have down to a science in a hospital.

misinterpretation, I'm not really a supporter of home birth but it can be done right and it's safe enough but you seem to think people should not have the right to choose what they want to do. two sides.

My whole point was that either way it's fuc king dangerous.

I thought you were all Jeffersonian and stuff?

Does that not apply when it's someone else and does not concern your tax rate?

[ursle]

There hasn't been mercury/thimerisol in vaccines for over 10 years...try again.

A current list of vaccines containing

THIMERISOL

Table 3: Thimerosal and Expanded List of Vaccines - (updated 3/14/2008)

Thimerosal Content in Currently Manufactured U.S. Licensed Vaccines

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="98%" summary="Thimerosal Content in Currently Manufactured U.S. Licensed Vaccines" border=1><TBODY><TR vAlign=top bgColor=#dadada><TH scope=col width="13%">Vaccine</TH><TH scope=col width="19%">Trade Name</TH><TH width="19%" socpe="col">Manufacturer</TH><TH scope=col width="24%">Thimerosal Concentration<SUP>1</SUP></TH><TH scope=col width="25%">Mercury</TH></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Anthrax</TD><TD>Anthrax vaccine</TD><TD>BioPort Corporation</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=3>DTaP</TD><TD>Tripedia<SUP>2</SUP></TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>≤ 0.00012%</TD><TD>≤ 0.3 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Infanrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Daptacel</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>DTaP-HepB-IPV</TD><TD>Pediarix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>DT</TD><TD rowSpan=2>No Trade Name</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>< 0.00012% (single dose)</TD><TD>< 0.3 µg/0.5mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd<SUP>3</SUP></TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=3>Td</TD><TD>No Trade Name</TD><TD>Mass Public Health</TD><TD>0.0033%</TD><TD>8.3 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Decavac</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>≤ 0.00012%</TD><TD>≤ 0.3 µg mercury/0.5 ml dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>No Trade Name</TD><TD widht="19%">Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Tdap</TD><TD>Adacel</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Boostrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>TT</TD><TD>No Trade Name</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=3>Hib</TD><TD>ActHIB/OmniHIB<SUP>4</SUP></TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>HibTITER</TD><TD>Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, Inc.</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>PedvaxHIB liquid</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Hib/HepB</TD><TD>COMVAX<SUP>5</SUP></TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Hepatitis B</TD><TD>Engerix-B

Pediatric/adolescent Adult

</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals </TD><TD>0

0

</TD><TD>0

0

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Recombivax HB

Pediatric/adolescent

Adult (adolescent) Dialysis

</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>

0

0 0

</TD><TD>

0 0 0

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Hepatitis A</TD><TD>Havrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Vaqta</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>HepA/HepB</TD><TD>Twinrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>< 0.0002%</TD><TD>< 1 µg/1mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>IPV</TD><TD>IPOL</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Poliovax</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=7>Influenza</TD><TD>Afluria</TD><TD>CSL Limited </TD><TD>0 (single dose)

0.01% (multidose)

</TD><TD>0/0.5 mL (single dose)

24.5 µg/0.5 mL (multidose)

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluzone<SUP>6</SUP></TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluvirin</TD><TD>Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Ltd</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 ml dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluzone (no thimerosal)</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluvirin (Preservative Free)</TD><TD>Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Ltd</TD><TD>< 0.0004%</TD><TD>< 1 µg/0.5 mL dose </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluarix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>< 0.0004%</TD><TD>< 1 µg/0.5 ml dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>FluLaval</TD><TD>ID Biomedical Corporation of Quebec</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 ml dose </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Influenza, live</TD><TD>FluMist</TD><TD>MedImmune Vaccines, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Japanese Encephalitis<SUP>7</SUP></TD><TD>JE-VAX</TD><TD>Research Foundation for Microbial Diseases of Osaka University</TD><TD>0.007%</TD><TD>35 µg/1.0mL dose

17.5 µg/0.5 mL dose

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>MMR</TD><TD>MMR-II</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Meningococcal</TD><TD>Menomune A, C, AC and A/C/Y/W-135</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0.01% (multidose)

0 (single dose)

</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 dose

0

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Menactra A, C, Y and W-135</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Pneumococcal</TD><TD>Prevnar (Pneumo Conjugate)</TD><TD>Wyeth Pharmaceuticals Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Pneumovax 23</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Rabies</TD><TD>IMOVAX</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Rabavert</TD><TD>Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Smallpox (Vaccinia), Live</TD><TD>ACAM2000</TD><TD>Acambis, Inc. </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Typhoid Fever</TD><TD>Typhim Vi</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Vivotif</TD><TD>Berna Biotech, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Varicella</TD><TD>Varivax</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Yellow Fever</TD><TD>Y-F-Vax</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=5>Table Footnotes

1. Thimerosal is approximately 50% mercury (Hg) by weight. A 0.01% solution (1 part per 10,000) of thimerosal contains 50 µg of Hg per 1 ml dose or 25 µg of Hg per 0.5 ml dose.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Jack M]

misinterpretation, I'm not really a supporter of home birth but it can be done right and it's safe enough but you seem to think people should not have the right to choose what they want to do. two sides.

My whole point was that either way it's fuc king dangerous.

I thought you were basically saying damned if you do, damned if you don't. You seem to say it again here, "either way it's dangerous." That's simply not the case. You're more damned at home. Period.

I thought you were all Jeffersonian and stuff?

Does that not apply when it's someone else and does not concern your tax rate?

Well I wasn't trying to start a debate on policy, just saying I'm pissed at my friend, and pissed that I was right all along but couldn't say anything to him. I'm pro-choice, but when a CHILD is being delivered, it's not about choice anymore. At that point it's reckless endangerment. They make you buckle up your kids in your car, what's the diff?

[BlueB]

You're more damned at home. Period.

True. My kid would have died or had serious damage if we had tried it at home. Double wrap of the cord around his neck and "sunny-side-up". He wasn't going out. They didn't notice it at the hospital either, but made her push for 3 hours. Only when the speciallist had arrived the C was ordered.

[pebu]

Vaccinations though are (among other things of course) just weak forms of the virus. By taking vaccinations you're exercising your own immune system. Unlike antibiotics, which take over for your immune system, vaccinations are just "practice". Not to mention they'll give you limited, and more importantly, controlled exposure to viruses that your body hasn't even considered yet. I don't know about anybody else, but I'd rather get a small weak dose of some new flu bug and let my body kick the **** out of it and then be ready for what could come up instead of having a huge dose of the same bug attack my system.

Bottom line is vaccines don't kill viruses. They ARE viruses.

Antibiotics are NOT some sort of infection. They attack the infection so your body doesn't have to.

I forgot about page 2, so this is a little bit old.

[bobdea]

I thought you were basically saying damned if you do, damned if you don't. You seem to say it again here, "either way it's dangerous." That's simply not the case. You're more damned at home. Period.

Well I wasn't trying to start a debate on policy, just saying I'm pissed at my friend, and pissed that I was right all along but couldn't say anything to him. I'm pro-choice, but when a CHILD is being delivered, it's not about choice anymore. At that point it's reckless endangerment. They make you buckle up your kids in your car, what's the diff?

you are more damned at home, I agree but both are dangerous and there are people who reasonably assume the risk of home births for various reasons. There are also people who are not reasonable on both sides.

I could make the point either way here. natural selection by way of birth at home that ends in death or pollute the gene pool with surgeon assisted birth that naturally would of killed both mother and child succesfully preventing both sets of inferior genes from reproducing thus interfering with the evolution of our species.

Bottom line is that child birth is something that happens naturally and it is high risk but forcing people to do it in one place or another might be a safe idea it's not really your business and people should be able to utilize free will in this case(within reason).

the truth is the best thing that could happen for our species as a whole is the birth rate takes a nosedive from one thing or another, both for environmental reasons and based on the fact that evolution happens faster in small isolated groups.

the above is me speaking in theoretic terms not saying it should be taken too literal or that I think the above is that simple.

[carvedog]

Well I wasn't trying to start a debate on policy, just saying I'm pissed at my friend, and pissed that I was right all along but couldn't say anything to him. I'm pro-choice, but when a CHILD is being delivered, it's not about choice anymore. At that point it's reckless endangerment. They make you buckle up your kids in your car, what's the diff?

Yes seat belts are mandatory on public highways. They cannot force you to buckle up your kids on your own property. Nor can the state force you to do a hospital birth. Nor should they. My wife wanted to do a home water birth at our first home ( we were off the grid and heated water on the stove, primitive to say the least ). Thank God there were some things that happened ( bed rest and false labor among them ) that made sure we were going to the hospital or I would have been a wreck. Having your first child at 35 + ( hey it's my wife I can't give everything away) adds some risk factors. Her water broke without any labor or contractions three weeks early.

So for me, ( and in retrospect for my wife ) the hospital was the right choice. There are some phenomenal midwifes out there who should be given credit for what they do.

My brothers wife arrived at the hospital and gave birth about ten minutes later in the "prep" room. She went home about six hours later, because everything was so normal.

Judging other people for their choices, esthetics etc is futile and counter productive. I know there are some people who thought that me taking my daughter on a wilderness river trip for a week at five and a half years old is crazy, but for us it was the right thing.

BTW, I tried to teach a young man to snowboard a few years ago. He only 10% function on the left side of his body. Over the course of a couple days it came out that he had a stroke at two as a reaction against a vaccine.

Also know of a family here locally whose baby died after receiving vaccination. Still in court as far as I know.

Try telling them it is all for the public good.

So make your informed decision for you and your kids and don't judge any others. No matter how important you think God made you, you're just another person trying to figure it out.

[Allee]

I guess the upshot of all this being - that we're all individuals and make our own choices, and if your friends child is deaf as Skatha thinks, then he made a stupid choice and he's going to be paying for it for a long time. Guess that's his right. I feel for the kid, as I do in all cases of parental idiocy, because I don't think he asked to be handicapped.

The other thing that bothers me is that now, as a taxpayer, you're going to be paying for it too if the child is special needs and can't be mainstreamed. But I suppose that's the downside of living in a democracy, that everyone ends up paying for other peoples dumb s**t.

Jerry, amen. I think it's really sad that everyone has to gang up on each other. Hell, I know I get beaten up on any time I tell people I don't want kids, and I kind of expect that ... but I can sit in a cafe and listen to a mother tearing another mother to pieces, and think that this is someone sharing your life experience, can't you be supportive?

[bobdea]

Yes seat belts are mandatory on public highways. They cannot force you to buckle up your kids on your own property. Nor can the state force you to do a hospital birth. Nor should they. My wife wanted to do a home water birth at our first home ( we were off the grid and heated water on the stove, primitive to say the least ). Thank God there were some things that happened ( bed rest and false labor among them ) that made sure we were going to the hospital or I would have been a wreck. Having your first child at 35 + ( hey it's my wife I can't give everything away) adds some risk factors. Her water broke without any labor or contractions three weeks early.

So for me, ( and in retrospect for my wife ) the hospital was the right choice. There are some phenomenal midwifes out there who should be given credit for what they do.

My brothers wife arrived at the hospital and gave birth about ten minutes later in the "prep" room. She went home about six hours later, because everything was so normal.

Judging other people for their choices, esthetics etc is futile and counter productive. I know there are some people who thought that me taking my daughter on a wilderness river trip for a week at five and a half years old is crazy, but for us it was the right thing.

BTW, I tried to teach a young man to snowboard a few years ago. He only 10% function on the left side of his body. Over the course of a couple days it came out that he had a stroke at two as a reaction against a vaccine.

Also know of a family here locally whose baby died after receiving vaccination. Still in court as far as I know.

Try telling them it is all for the public good.

So make your informed decision for you and your kids and don't judge any others. No matter how important you think God made you, you're just another person trying to figure it out.

I agree, carvedog said it better than I could.

[bobdea]

I guess the upshot of all this being - that we're all individuals and make our own choices, and if your friends child is deaf as Skatha thinks, then he made a stupid choice and he's going to be paying for it for a long time. I feel for the kid, as I do in all cases of parental idiocy, because I don't think he asked to be handicapped.

The other thing that bothers me is that now, as a taxpayer, you're going to be paying for it too if the child is special needs and can't be mainstreamed. But I suppose that's the downside of living in a democracy, that everyone ends up paying for other peoples dumb s**t.

Seriously, sometimes it is a shame that stupidity isn't fatal. The world would be a better place if it was.

(or maybe they'd develop a vaccine for it...)

I'm willing to bet the death rate of home births with complications saves public money as compared to children that are "saved" to live a life of disability that's related to complications of labor. because once the kid dies he's not going to cost the public anything after burial other than maybe therapy costs that the parents might need.

Stupidity is fatal, that's the point of this thread.:D

[Jack M]

Sorry, but at <i>full term</i>, it's like the bumpersticker says... "It's a child not a choice".

It's a <i>baby</i> at that point. A life. Can you be arrested for not taking your child to the hospital if it needs medical treatment?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm willing to bet the death rate of home births with complications saves public money as compared to children that are "saved" to live a life of disability that's related to complications of labor. because once the kid dies he's not going to cost the public anything after burial other than maybe therapy costs that the parents might need.

Stupidity is fatal, that's the point of this thread.:D

Huh? There's all kinds of complications that occur that end up in perfectly healthy children, so long as there are medical personnel on hand who are prepared to deal with it. My first kid was flipped upside down (OP) which resulted in a lot of pain due to the occiput rubbing on mom's spinal column and a baby that was not coming out without assistance. Ended up with an epidural and a forceps delivery that would have been a c-section if not for the exceptionally skilled obstetrician at hand in the hospital. My daughter was and is perfectly healthy.

This home birth stuff is insanity. Childbirth is probably the most dangerous thing women routinely do and in years past it killed many women and their children. Thanks to modern medicine those numbers are way down. Just because they died screaming in their homes with midwives in attendance in the middle ages doesn't mean we should put up with that risk now.

[BlueB]

the truth is the best thing that could happen for our species as a whole is the birth rate takes a nosedive from one thing or another, both for environmental reasons and based on the fact that evolution happens faster in small isolated groups.

It's sad, but it's the truth...

[bobdea]

Huh? There's all kinds of complications that occur that end up in perfectly healthy children, so long as there are medical personnel on hand who are prepared to deal with it. My first kid was flipped upside down (OP) which resulted in a lot of pain due to the occiput rubbing on mom's spinal column and a baby that was not coming out without assistance. Ended up with an epidural and a forceps delivery that would have been a c-section if not for the exceptionally skilled obstetrician at hand in the hospital. My daughter was and is perfectly healthy.

This home birth stuff is insanity. Childbirth is probably the most dangerous thing women routinely do and in years past it killed many women and their children. Thanks to modern medicine those numbers are way down. Just because they died screaming in their homes with midwives in attendance in the middle ages doesn't mean we should put up with that risk now.

yours is but that's avoiding the point. someone tried to make the argument that it's people should be forced to use hospitals because somehow it would be cheaper for tax payers. I'd be amazed if that were true, logic assumes that the complications that cause brain damage in the hospital are FAR more likely to be fatal at home.

I with you Neil I was just pointing out that the other poster's argument was very flawed.....

[bobdea]

Sorry, but at <i>full term</i>, it's like the bumpersticker says... "It's a child not a choice".

It's a <i>baby</i> at that point. A life. Can you be arrested for not taking your child to the hospital if it needs medical treatment?

who's making abortion statements?

[Jack M]

who's making abortion statements?

You seem to be making statements that it's the parent's choice if they want to endanger their baby. No?

[Fleaman]

http://wonder.cdc.gov/lbd-icd10.html

Go to this site and sort birth deaths by medical attendant and you will be suprised.

It seems that Midwife births have a death rate of 2.95\1000

and Medical Doctors have a death rate of 7.10\1000

I agree with Bob, Having babies is a risky gamble. If it is your turn or the childs turn, it will happen.

It is easy to blame people or methods when there are many factors involved with pediatric health.

[bobdea]

You seem to be making statements that it's the parent's choice if they want to endanger their baby. No?

I can answer that two ways.

no, you're assuming that all the people that do this are uninformed, don't care or have no reason to other than to live out some hippy spirit earth ritual and that there are no real risks in a hospital.

OR: yes, within reason.

Do your children ride in cars or eat meat? if so you're endangering your children.

both are applicable and fair. many people don't trust doctors, can't afford them, don't want unwarranted surgery or have religious reasons not to have their babies in a hospital and for you to say they are all wrong as a whole and call it child endangerment is kinda like calling all police corrupt when we know it's only 99.9% of them:biggthump

[BobD]

It seems that Midwife births have a death rate of 2.95\1000

and Medical Doctors have a death rate of 7.10\1000

Maybe the doctors need to start washing thier hands..... (copied from somewhere) Ofcourse the doctors get the difficult births

1. History and Physiology of Hand Hygiene

1.1 Historical Perspective

In 1846, Ignaz Semmelweis observed that women whose babies were delivered by students and physicians in the First Clinic at the General Hospital of Vienna consistently had a higher mortality rate than those whose babies were delivered by midwives in the Second Clinic. He noted that physicians who went directly from the autopsy suite to the obstetrics ward had a disagreeable odor on their hands despite washing their hands with soap and water upon entering the obstetrics clinic. He postulated that the puerperal fever that affected so many parturient women was caused by "cadaverous particles" transmitted from the autopsy suite to the obstetrics ward via the hands of students and physicians. Perhaps because of the known deodorizing effect of chlorine compounds, as of May 1847, he insisted that students and physicians clean their hands with a chlorine solution between each patient in the clinic. The maternal mortality rate in the First Clinic subsequently dropped dramatically and remained low for years. This intervention by Semmelweis represents the first evidence indicating that cleansing heavily contaminated hands with an antiseptic agent between patient contacts may reduce health-care--associated transmission of contagious diseases more effectively than handwashing with plain soap and water.

[Dr D]

A current list of vaccines containing

THIMERISOL

Table 3: Thimerosal and Expanded List of Vaccines - (updated 3/14/2008)

Thimerosal Content in Currently Manufactured U.S. Licensed Vaccines

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="98%" summary="Thimerosal Content in Currently Manufactured U.S. Licensed Vaccines" border=1><TBODY><TR vAlign=top bgColor=#dadada><TH scope=col width="13%">Vaccine</TH><TH scope=col width="19%">Trade Name</TH><TH width="19%" socpe="col">Manufacturer</TH><TH scope=col width="24%">Thimerosal Concentration<SUP>1</SUP></TH><TH scope=col width="25%">Mercury</TH></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Anthrax</TD><TD>Anthrax vaccine</TD><TD>BioPort Corporation</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=3>DTaP</TD><TD>Tripedia<SUP>2</SUP></TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>≤ 0.00012%</TD><TD>≤ 0.3 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Infanrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Daptacel</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>DTaP-HepB-IPV</TD><TD>Pediarix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>DT</TD><TD rowSpan=2>No Trade Name</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>< 0.00012% (single dose)</TD><TD>< 0.3 µg/0.5mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd<SUP>3</SUP></TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=3>Td</TD><TD>No Trade Name</TD><TD>Mass Public Health</TD><TD>0.0033%</TD><TD>8.3 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Decavac</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>≤ 0.00012%</TD><TD>≤ 0.3 µg mercury/0.5 ml dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>No Trade Name</TD><TD widht="19%">Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Tdap</TD><TD>Adacel</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Boostrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>TT</TD><TD>No Trade Name</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=3>Hib</TD><TD>ActHIB/OmniHIB<SUP>4</SUP></TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>HibTITER</TD><TD>Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, Inc.</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>PedvaxHIB liquid</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Hib/HepB</TD><TD>COMVAX<SUP>5</SUP></TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Hepatitis B</TD><TD>Engerix-B

Pediatric/adolescent Adult

</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals </TD><TD>0

0

</TD><TD>0

0

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Recombivax HB

Pediatric/adolescent

Adult (adolescent) Dialysis

</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>

0

0 0

</TD><TD>

0 0 0

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Hepatitis A</TD><TD>Havrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Vaqta</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>HepA/HepB</TD><TD>Twinrix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>< 0.0002%</TD><TD>< 1 µg/1mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>IPV</TD><TD>IPOL</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Poliovax</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Ltd </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=7>Influenza</TD><TD>Afluria</TD><TD>CSL Limited </TD><TD>0 (single dose)

0.01% (multidose)

</TD><TD>0/0.5 mL (single dose)

24.5 µg/0.5 mL (multidose)

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluzone<SUP>6</SUP></TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 mL dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluvirin</TD><TD>Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Ltd</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 ml dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluzone (no thimerosal)</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluvirin (Preservative Free)</TD><TD>Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Ltd</TD><TD>< 0.0004%</TD><TD>< 1 µg/0.5 mL dose </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Fluarix</TD><TD>GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals</TD><TD>< 0.0004%</TD><TD>< 1 µg/0.5 ml dose</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>FluLaval</TD><TD>ID Biomedical Corporation of Quebec</TD><TD>0.01%</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 ml dose </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Influenza, live</TD><TD>FluMist</TD><TD>MedImmune Vaccines, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Japanese Encephalitis<SUP>7</SUP></TD><TD>JE-VAX</TD><TD>Research Foundation for Microbial Diseases of Osaka University</TD><TD>0.007%</TD><TD>35 µg/1.0mL dose

17.5 µg/0.5 mL dose

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>MMR</TD><TD>MMR-II</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Meningococcal</TD><TD>Menomune A, C, AC and A/C/Y/W-135</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0.01% (multidose)

0 (single dose)

</TD><TD>25 µg/0.5 dose

0

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Menactra A, C, Y and W-135</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Pneumococcal</TD><TD>Prevnar (Pneumo Conjugate)</TD><TD>Wyeth Pharmaceuticals Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Pneumovax 23</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Rabies</TD><TD>IMOVAX</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Rabavert</TD><TD>Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Smallpox (Vaccinia), Live</TD><TD>ACAM2000</TD><TD>Acambis, Inc. </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD rowSpan=2>Typhoid Fever</TD><TD>Typhim Vi</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, SA</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Vivotif</TD><TD>Berna Biotech, Ltd</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Varicella</TD><TD>Varivax</TD><TD>Merck & Co, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Yellow Fever</TD><TD>Y-F-Vax</TD><TD>Sanofi Pasteur, Inc</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=5>Table Footnotes

1. Thimerosal is approximately 50% mercury (Hg) by weight. A 0.01% solution (1 part per 10,000) of thimerosal contains 50 µg of Hg per 1 ml dose or 25 µg of Hg per 0.5 ml dose.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thanks for saving me the time to look it up:biggthump