carving toeside - jack michaud,bob dea, william blake. rob stevens et al

[nigelc]

Ok my question revolves round toe-side carving, rotation and alignment with bindings/nose.Like the hypothetical carver in bobs excellent article heel sides are my security blanket while toe-sides are more of a gamble. I have been trying out different things for the last two weeks and this is where I am at

• If I adopt a face the nose/cross-under style then it is relatively easy to drop the hips into the turn a la Jack's excellent article. What is very hard with this style is to keep pressure on my front foot on the toes side as it naturally tends to rock me back. burned out rear quad ensues

• If I adopt a more face the bindings/cross-through/retraction turn sort of style then it is much easier to keep even pressure on the feet i.e. initiating with mostly front foot and progressing to mostly back foot during the turn by feeding the board forwards. What is difficult is dropping my hips into the turn as again this seems to force my weight onto the back leg

• I seem to be rotating on heel-sides to be facing the nose at peak rotation, while in order to get good front foot pressure on the toe sides I am definitely rotating to face the bindings on toe-side, then rotating back to a more neutral position as my weight shifts to my back foot to finish the turn and I am starting to either retract for the next initiation or target a bump to do the unweighting for me.

• I have experimented with keeping my shoulders aligned with bindings on heel-side and this feels quite comfortable and I am still able to get my weight forward enough without locking out my rear leg.

• especially noticeable on a long cat-track or flat where I am doing extended turns on alternating edges while trying to go as straight as possible is that on toeside if my hips and shoulders do not face the bindings then this really forces my weight onto the rear leg and locks that leg out at the same time- limits the range of movement

Is there anything simple I am missing?

[jtslalom]

nigelc,

I think you are thinking to much. It seems alot of riders try to "over analyze" aspects about their riding and you are included in this group. Just ride and do what ever seems to come natural to you. The one article that truly helped me understand a little about how I ride was the "Physics of a snowboard carve" It can be found on this site in the articles section. If you have a technical background or education this will help you understand what is going on.

Good Luck

[skategoat]

nigelc,

I think you are thinking to much. It seems alot of riders try to "over analyze" aspects about their riding and you are included in this group. Just ride and do what ever seems to come natural to you. The one article that truly helped me understand a little about how I ride was the "Physics of a snowboard carve" It can be found on this site in the articles section. If you have a technical background or education this will help you understand what is going on.

Good Luck

I think jt has a point there. I tried to apply some of what I've been reading - "eg. feeding the board through the turn" but sh!t happens too fast during a turn. I'm just trying to apply the Core Four, especially keeping the shoulders level to the hill.

[bobdea]

nigelc,

I think you are thinking to much. It seems alot of riders try to "over analyze" aspects about their riding and you are included in this group. Just ride and do what ever seems to come natural to you. The one article that truly helped me understand a little about how I ride was the "Physics of a snowboard carve" It can be found on this site in the articles section. If you have a technical background or education this will help you understand what is going on.

Good Luck

I tend to agree with that statement, I'm not too much of a hound on technique because mine blows

As I've gotten out of shape in the last few years I've realized that the way I ride is terribly inefficient, so much wasted energy!

Sometime when I have time, money and time to either put in on the hill or in the gym to be in proper shape then I need some time with a good coach to help me figure out what is not working for me and what is.

Post a video if you can, we might be able to see something, Jack, Bordy, WB and Gilmour certainly will where as may not unless something is real wrong.

[nigelc]

unfortunately no video.

I have just been to europe and canada for a few weeks of riding and now have to wait unril the NZ season for my next snowboarding so all I can do is think about it until at least july.

Basically I am failing to get my weight forward enough on toe-side. Furthermore it seems to me that it is virtually impossible to do so without rotating toward a more face the bindings alignment. Yet many people seem to ride face-thenose so am I missing something?

[pebu]

(I'm gonna play into the et al. also...)

I don't really pay attention to whether I am facing bindings or nose, but something that has really helped my toesides is reaching for where I am going with my trailing hand. Now that I think about it it probably lines me up with the nose. But getting that hand out there really reminds me to drive and keeps me out of the back seat. Another trick that I think makes you do the same movement is with your leading hand reach for your leading foot's heel.

[mrjamie]

Night-riding yesterday on a perfect piste, I was watching some soft-booters carve with soul and style, dropping their front shoulders into toeside, and bring them out for heelside carves. Wanting to imitate and innovate, I decided to copy the basic movement but add a swing to it, building up momentum in my shoulders before I swung my whole body, front first, into each turn. If you're having trouble imaging this, think of swinging your left hand, followed by your shoulder and hips, from above and behind your front shoulder, down across that shoulder, to diagonally in front of your chest for a toeside turn, and back to the same position but behind your shoulders (lower than the position you rotated into toeside from, because that position is already part of the toeside turn) for a heelside carve.

This momentum build-up into each turn really helped me keep my weight over the nose of the board on both heel side and toe side. Coupled with weighting and unweighting the board by bending my knees up and down, I managed to get a board whose tail is a custom cut in what used to be the center-rear just behind the rear bending (see 'Rad-Air Custom Swallowtail' in videos) into jump turns, to carve more consistently and solidly on flat(ter) pistes, and finally to control the distance from my body and the piste on heel-side turns.

I don't know if this is 'driving' the board, and maybe it looks really silly, because people kept stopping to look at me ride down the mountain, but for someone like me who has no coach save for the forums, it's a good start. :p It felt nice too.

[nigelc]

I guess that is what I am talking about - my style is changing to be more softboot like. I am also starting to prefer lower angles.

I hear you william blake on the just ride stuff but its 30 centigrade here so i have to wait awhile. Once the snow is here I do tend to just get on with it but I find it helpfull to analyse the riding I have just done and how I improved - or not

The toeside initiation is definitely where i need to improve now, especially as it gets steeper or bumpier.

[Hotbeans]

I'd add my 2 cents on this discussion..

I've had about 50 runs or so on my new coiler SLC (first board) and have made adjustments to my cateks about every 3rd run or so and have made the following observations (predominantly using crossunders with shoulders squared to the nose):

board carves sharply when put up on an edge so that in order to ease up on the quick turns, I had to shift the board (under my body) to a more forward position while coming into the apex just to keep control of the arc. This resulted in rear leg burn and some serious instability out of the apex (most noticeable toeside). Just shifting the board from edge to edge resulted in some really quick, ie: see-ya-later, carves. This was with the bindings in the center position, both fr/rear.

I began shifting the bindings back the smallest amount each time and realized that I could adopt a more neutral stance, use higher binding angles and use the board's position under me more effectively. This applied to heelside or toeside turns. Now I am acutely aware of my body's position as it relates to the board and can gradually drop the board underneath me to reach the desired apex. When apex is reached, I can unload the nose with more control and have it accelerate underneath me to it's forward position to begin to intiate the next arc. Now, I haven't been video'd, but if feels like my knee's stay open, hips / shoulders keep aligned and I have a solid platform throughout the carve.

I've also cured the "knees together" issue by raising the (front side) heel on my back foot since I was tucking my back knee in behind the front to apply pressure to the heelside edge.

I've got to move them back another 1/4 inch then I think I'm good to go for the slopes I'm running. I suspect that the steeper the pitch, the more forward the bindings need to be.

[Hotbeans]

"If your nose is fully forward when you're initiating a turn, you may be reversing either your drive or your description of your drive."

Sorry for the confusion: I was refering to when my bindings were too far forward, I had to shift my center of mass backward to gain control of the first 1/3rd of the turn...ie: larger turn radii. Seemed weird to me, too.

...you also might consider changing up your phraseology and pentameter a bit , "Hotbeans".;)

...Huh? I'm the product of public schooling... "pentameter: a five meter verse.".

:p

[Jack M]

Nigel,

What can I say, it sounds like you are simply not weighting the front foot enough at the start of a toeside carve. Some thoughts on this:

- Make sure your knee is ahead of your ankle.

- Make sure your rear hand (right hand for regulars, left hand for goofy) is <i>in your sight</i> at all times.

- Think of feeding the board through the turn like feeding a dollar bill into a change machine.... between each turn you pull it out again.

The toeside hip-drop is, imo, critical. I find it easier to accomplish this with a body alignment that is somewhere between the bindings and the nose. I tell beginner carvers to face the nose in the hopes that they end up facing their bindings or so - instead of facing the toeside edge like they're used to.

Strictly facing the binding angles on toeside, in my observation, commonly leads to the hips-up, butt-in-the-air problem I talk about in my article. It sets you up to bend over at the waist, reach for the snow, and then your balance goes all to heck. It can also lead to a regression back to facing the toeside edge and letting your rear hand get in the back seat.

By the way, facing ahead of your binding angles does not preclude you from riding cross-through or any other style.

Hope this helps.

PS - Bob wrote an article?

[Hotbeans]

..that's gettin' a little itchy..

[Jack M]

Nice try with the simultaneous post, jackbeans:D

..huh?

[nigelc]

thanks jack - i guess thats what I was after - that proper form is to keep the right hand forward not to rotate hips and shoulders past the bindings. I'll try and get some video organised during our winter but my attempts at educating the wife have so far resulted in movies of sky and boots only.

I don't have a problem with a variety of styles when facing ahead of the bindings. My issue is that I can drop my hip on toeside quite effectively while facing ahead of the bindings OR I can weight my front foot efectively while facing the bindings. what I am having difficulty doing is dropping my hip in like I can on the heelside while weighting my front foot. I have found that i naturally seem to weight my front foot more as I rotate further toward the toeside, but as you say this prevents the hip drop.

I am riding flat on the front(59 deg) with one wedge in my x-bones on the rear(53 deg). i might try riding flat as william blake suggests in ather thread. I also wonder if the BTS springs might help rather than the single position forward leans I have on my Lemans.

[Jack M]

Nigel - WB and I disagree on technique in general. Try his way, try my way, try lots of things. That's the only way to <i>know</i> what works for <i>you</i>.

I'm not sure where he gets off saying he "respectfully" disagrees with me and then goes on to say things like "This is very 1980s novice technique that can only bring about 1980s novice form". Not my idea of respect.

I personally think that riding flat narrow stances is beyond archaic. That is what we were all forced to ride in the 80s and early 90s before bindings with lift and cant options <i>evolved</i> out of necessity. We know better now. Wider stance = better balance = better carves. Cant/lift makes a wider stance more comfortable and unrestricted.

Heelside carves are more powerful/balanced for a lot of people because the hips naturally drop into the carve. Getting your hips down on toeside will allow you to achieve that same power over there.

Your rear hand getting behind you and out of sight is a symptom of riding in the back seat. It is simply harder to make that mistake with your hands in front. Not that they are the cure, and not that they should be your primary focus, it just helps to keep them in front.

All I know is, I was out riding yesterday, on rain re-frozen loose granular, and having a blast.

[carvedog]

Nigel - WB and I disagree on technique in general. Try his way, try my way, try lots of things. That's the only way to <i>know</i> what works for <i>you</i>.

I'm not sure where he gets off saying he "respectfully" disagrees with me and then goes on to say things like "This is very 1980s novice technique that can only bring about 1980s novice form". Not my idea of respect.

I personally think that riding flat narrow stances is beyond archaic. That is what we were all forced to ride in the 80s and early 90s before bindings with lift and cant options <i>evolved</i> out of necessity. We know better now. Wider stance = better balance = better carves. Cant/lift makes a wider stance more comfortable and unrestricted.

Heelside carves are more powerful/balanced for a lot of people because the hips naturally drop into the carve. Getting your hips down on toeside will allow you to achieve that same power over there.

Your rear hand getting behind you and out of sight is a symptom of riding in the back seat. It is simply harder to make that mistake with your hands in front. Not that they are the cure, and not that they should be your primary focus, it just helps to keep them in front.

All I know is, I was out riding yesterday, on rain re-frozen loose granular, and having a blast.

Sweet pic Jack. Having a blast is what it is all about.

A couple of thoughts.

The lower you can start your focus for turn initiation the better.

Lately I have been playing less with the knee and more with opening or closing my ankles for turn initiation ( combined with unweighting moves from knee/ankle extension/flexion).

Hands - should not be focus for turn init. I agree with Jack that if you can't see them somehow peripherally in front of you then they are in the wrong spot. Arms weigh about 15 to 30??? plus pounds each and can seriously throw off balance and neutral weight distribution if behind you. When teaching beginners as soon as I see the hands go behind the centerline of the body, usually a crash or edge loss results next.

I am more interested in whole body flexion/ext than in hip placement. Thinking of the body like a large spring that I flex to push my COM towards the inside of the turn to generate edge and pressure control. If your shoulders and hips aren't working together to generate this "whole body" spring to manage edge pressure. If your body is flexing and then you add a bit of a situp to drive the board forward it is an awesome feeling and has nothing to do with individual foot "weighting".

I personally don't like and can't (sic) or won't ride with lifts and adjustments, preferring flat to the board.

Not particularly eloquent, just a few thoughts that bring a smile to my face when I ride.

[JJFluff]

WB-

the more I read your posts, especially these posts on this thread, I really feel you and I are on the same page. I always have described it opposite though, in a way. Meaning, from body down to the board. Just because I feel it is important to put the body in the right position so the board will react favorably. I understand that different board angles, speed, and terrain effect where the body needs to be, but I think of it by putting my body in the right position first, so that the board does what I want it to do. Do you follow me at all?

As far as moving the board below you, under a centered mass, that is so right on. I've always done it, and tried to teach it, but never had a solid way to do so. Your suggestion about standing in the flats and moving the board below you forward/and back at different speeds will help a ton, thanks. I really use the drive near the end of the turn to create the "snap". So on large radius turns, the body is centered througout the turn, until nearing the end of the desired arc, the board is excellerated below the body, driving it forward through the turn, to aid in transition, and the fun/factor.

It is the snap that makes me believe body first is important, especially on cross through turning. Because with transitions being done in fractions of a second, usually in the air, the body needs to be in a good position as soon as the next edge is engaged.

Now, on tight radius turns, much more focus is on the board, the body stays much more upright, and movement changes, especially knee down for me. To create the same edge angles while allowing my body to stay in a much more upright stance. Now the drive is constant, toe to heel, toe to heel, and don't get kicked on your arss.

I do all this with little angulation, or BATH. I would be curious to see a photo of yourself riding, to see what your style consists of.

[nigelc]

first of all thanks for all the input - I feel that the more information I have the better carver I will become.

some interesting points:

I find as stated previous that as I rotate a little more toward the bindings on toeside that I am able to ride more in the front seat - the load on my quads evens up and the carve is easier to control. Actually hand position seems to make little difference as I have tried riding with my hands behind my back as a way of "educating" my body to keep my weight more forward and my riding is in fact very similar in this position.

Another exercise I often try is to ride with my arms extended straight out horizontally from my shoulders like wings but keeping them aligned with the slope which encourages me to angulate.

I am not yhinking about weighting my feet independently. What I am doing after a run is thnking about how the whole thing felt. What I come up with is that on the heelside carve the load on my legs is even and I feel confident and secure even on bumpy steep and icy terrain, while on the toe-side I feel like I am riding the whole way on my back leg and the burning of my quad confirms this. If I ride a pitch which is biased toward the heelside so I spend 80% of my time on that carve then no leg pain. If the bias is reversed then I am definitely loading my back leg much more despite consciously trying to even up, only a rotation toward the binding seems to enable me to "unlock"

The reason I mentioned my setup is that I was wondering if this may be contributing. I general I would like to keep it as simple as possible.

sorry WB there is no riding at mt cook in the summer. Problem with rotorua is that I seem to be able to smell it from...everywhere. Wife says its me!

[bschurman]

I very much respect 1980s style.

I still prefer most music from that era, as well.

Reading your online bio, Jack, you might benefit from opening up to new input, instead of simply outputting your excellent technical advice.

I know that I sure benefit from it!

[/size]

SERIOUSLY!? This is not constructive. Jack's advice is solid and if you can't swallow your ego to accept that someone one else MIGHT have something valuable to say then don't bother posting this worthless stuff here.

Harass me all you want at least I don't hide behind a stage name.

Oh, and before you bother to deconstruct how I ride. I'll do it for you. I suck, I can't ride for crap. I'll freely admit to that. But don't belittle someone online 'cause it makes you feel better about yourself.

->Ben

And that's my real name!

[Jack M]

Oh, and before you bother to deconstruct how I ride. I'll do it for you. I suck

No you don't.

[GeoffV]

:lurk::lurk::lurk:

:p

[GeoffV]

WB-

I would be curious to see a photo of yourself riding, to see what your style consists of.

+1

I'd like to see your riding style WB. Is it a racer style versus a free carving?

Please post a picture

[trailertrash]

+1

I'd like to see your riding style WB. Is it a racer style versus a free carving?

Please post a picture

I'm not really into the freecarving thing, although I think it's cool to watch, from the chairlift.

I don't think the OP is asking for race technique. It sounds to me if you want to race, follow wb. If you want to freecarve, which I would bet the majority of us are here for, follow Jack's tips.

I wish we could require video or at least photo's (more than 1) of any poster who wants to throw their hat in the ring of a technique discussion. It really adds some credibility to the poster. If I see somebody's video and they look like crap it will surely affect how use their advice.

[MUD]

I wish we could require video or at least photo's (more than 1) of any poster who wants to throw their hat in the ring of a technique discussion. It really adds some credibility to the poster. If I see somebody's video and they look like crap it will surely affect how use their advice.

This would be a pretty quiet place.......

[carvedog]

This would be a pretty quiet place.......

:lol::lol::lol::lol: