Toeside chatter and skipping - why?

[Fastskiguy]

Got a problem with toeside chattering and skipping. What is up with this? It starts at the fall line and ends when I stop moving. I will try to post a video when I can but it might be awhile :( It's on hard snow only. I almost never skip or chatter on my heelside

I know this is because I am asking the board to do something it (she) doesn't want to do....but do I need more edging, less edging, or just less pressure? (I can't believe the answer is less pressure)

I'm running my boot shafts pretty upright (4 rear, 5 front on Raichle boots) so I'm thinking maybe over edging?

Any comments ya'll have would be appreciated. Thanks :)

[Silver Bullet]

I suspect that there is not enough pressure on the back foot, and this prevents the back half of the board to track with the front. I seam to recall that this happened to me a time or two until I figured out how to evenly distribute my weight on both feet. The imbalance in my case was due to heal lift on both feet. Fin suggested that I lift the toe on the front foot, and it centered me well over the board, with added benefit of no front leg burning.

[Louis]

its tough to judge like this, but when it was happening to me it was that I didnt do my body rotation correctly, or wasnt well centered on the board (being sitting more on the tail)

it also happened to me when i was "folding" the nose of my old board (2 much pressure and it was getting off for some reason)

[Fastskiguy]

I just wanna look like Silver Bullet's avitar LOL! That is cool!

I think my weight is biased to the rear a little-it seems a little easier to keep up with the board on the heelside. I have a toe lift and some front leg quad burning (Not here in the midwest but on bigger slopes). But I've only been at this one season and most of last year was getting my **** together so there could be a fitness issue on the quad burning.

But both fore and aft bias issues and rotational deficiency (or toxicity) are ideas I hadn't thought of.]

[queequeg]

This happens to me when I'm tired, and begin to lose my technique - specifically when I'm not centered over the board (frontside-backside, not fore-aft) and/or not focusing my face, hands, shoulders and hips into the momentum of my carve. Otherwise, I would check to see that that I am low enough on the board to expand into depressions, and absorb bumps though the entire length of my turns ... but I'd suspect that this is more attributable to centering. I would try thinking about hip-checking the slope with (what would be) your trailing hip (without folding at the waist) as you turn toeside and see if that helps ... when this happens to me it is mostly on the backside, so ymmv.

Hope that helps?

[bobdea]

something is very wrong!

I used to play with stances allot and on softboots if my stance is to narrow something similar happens. I doubt this is the case unless you have your stance width at like 16 inches or something.

[mr_roboteye]

What kind of board, how long is it, how stiff is it, and what is your stance width?

later,

Dave R.

[Fastskiguy]

What kind of board, how long is it, how stiff is it, and what is your stance width?

later,

Dave R.

A donek FC11 171 7.5 stiffness and a donek behle GS board 175 9.0 stiffness, stance is 21" on each, angles are higher on the FCII, get about the same amount of chatter on each.

I like the idea of moving my trailing hip towards the snow-might help keep my weight bias a little more forward too.

[Silver Bullet]

I'm already assuming that your boots fit and your edges are in good shape.... How about this one?

Bending at the waist instead of knees

or

Angulating too much and not decambering the board

or

Boot out

or

You boot is not centered on the board - Too much space between the boot toe and the edge - angles too steep

or

You are initiating you turn too late and forcing your board across the hill while you momentum is still carrying you down the fall line.

I have a hard time thinking the issue is resulting from being back too far on the board.

[carvedog]

For the type of turn you are doing you need a higher board angle. In other words drive knees harder into snow earlier to generate a higher (closer to perpendicular to the snow ) angle with the board. Feel pressure in tongues of boots earlier and add more shape to the turn. So instead of pointing down the run point across the run. Too much speed, not enough shape and flat board = skipping. Doesn't matter SCR, or boots.

If you are reaching toward the snow with your hands this causes center of mass (COM) to not be over the board. FYI you cannot pressure the tongues of the boots if you are reaching over. If COM is not over your feet you cannot pressure the tongues as well.

Could be wrong but stop leaning, start driving knees. Ease into this. If you don't have shaped turn along with this, you can load board and have a spectacular launch.

Best of luck.

[wavechaser]

I've seen this happen before when the center point between the bindings is ahead of the center point of the edge contact length. When you are on your heelside the center point between your heels is behind the center point of the edge contact length - but when you go toeside the center point between your toes is forward of the center point of edge contact length. Not sure I said that clearly - make sense? What happens on the toeside in this situation is not enogh pressure on the tail and it starts jumping...if BOTH bindings are mounted in their respective furthest forward insert packs I would almost guarantee you will get this effect.

Are you familar with the concept of binding "setback"?

[nekdut]

This one helped me:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm

[Dan]

This one helped me:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm

Looks like a bunch of the image files are missing from that tutorial. Jack?

[carvedog]

Looks like a bunch of the image files are missing from that tutorial. Jack?

Forgot about this tutorial. Good stuff. The images were fine on my laptop.

[queequeg]

something is very wrong!

I used to play with stances allot and on softboots if my stance is to narrow something similar happens. I doubt this is the case unless you have your stance width at like 16 inches or something.

I ride a 16" stance and this doesn't happen to me - (at least not on the frontside. Sometimes it happens backside but that is usually when I'm tired and let my technique get sloppy).

One thing that I thought was interesting after looking at the images (particularly the second image) is that you appear to start chattering *immediately* after transitioning from hell to toeside. Whenever I experience this problem (again, on my backside) it is usually well into the arc. Makes me wonder if what silver bullet said is the issue:

Angulating too much and not decambering the board

...

You are initiating you turn too late and forcing your board across the hill while you momentum is still carrying you down the fall line

Given the fact that you are chattering right away, rather than losing it later on, I wonder if one or both of those two are the culprit.

[pebu]

One of the things that helped me get my toeside dialed in (far from all the way dialed in, but it's feeling a whole lot better) is to take my trailing hand and reach out towards where I want to go. Basically reach out for the spot about 5 feet before your board goes there. I think it helps keep my hips in check and gets me to pressure the nose just right. Now if I could only keep my front heelside from washing out...

[mr_roboteye]

A donek FC11 171 7.5 stiffness and a donek behle GS board 175 9.0 stiffness, stance is 21" on each, angles are higher on the FCII, get about the same amount of chatter on each.

I think the answer is very simple. Your stance is too wide. Too see if this is the case, when you do a toeside turn, concentrate on bringing your knees together during your toeside. I'm only telling you to do this as a diagnosis technique to see if this is the problem. You shouldn't ride like this all the time. When you bring your knees together, since your boots and bindings are rigid you will be forcing the board to bend into it's decambered arc.

If it doesn't chatter when you "bend" it by cheating your knees together, this tells you that there isn't enough of your weight concentrated at the norrowest part of the board.

Since your username is fastskiguy I assume that you ski. Whether you're carving a ski or a snowboard, they both work exactly the same. Look at where the boot is mounted on a ski. Directly over the narrowest point of the ski. If you move the weight too far away from the apex of the sidecut (the narrowest point of the board / ski) it's going to chatter.

I know some people will probably flame me for telling you to narrow your stance because wide stances provide an increase in fore / aft stability, but you can get too ridiculous with the width.

I ride between 18 1/2" and 19" on boards between 185 and 190cm, and about 16 5/8" on a 162. Never chattered.

later,

Dave R.

[Fastskiguy]

This one helped me:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/toesideproblem.cfm

Oh man, I think I look like some of the square headed dudes!

[Pow]

"toeside problem" article will work wonders for the counter-rotatation that causes toeside skidding or chatter like this.

with "bad" technique, looking down the slope causes you to twist to your limit when crossing the fall line on toeside, so your body is pulling one way while you try to push the board the other way with your legs. If you used to ski, then this problem could be carried over from ski technique, where looking down the fall line is common.

It also looks like it could be boot out too (though if this is at the apex of a deep carve, it would probably result in a total washout rather than skipping). It wouldnt hurt to check your binding angles and make sure your boots arent over the edge too far though.

[D-Sub]

Oh man, I think I look like some of the square headed dudes!

as in reaching for the snow?

honestly, getting someone to diagnose your problem by looking at your tracks is not going to be accurate. Post a video of you riding, or at least some still shots.

21" is a pretty wide stance unless you're fairly tall.

[wavechaser]

as in reaching for the snow?

honestly, getting someone to diagnose your problem by looking at your tracks is not going to be accurate. Post a video of you riding, or at least some still shots.

21" is a pretty wide stance unless you're fairly tall.

We're getting closer...too wide a stance is a possibility I guess, but doubtful it is causing not enough de-cambering on a 171 or 175 at a 21" stance. I ride 20" on a 160 slalom board with no problems bending the board, and 21" on my 185. And if that was the case you would probably experience it BOTH heelside and toeside. The thing I mentioned before about having the bindings too far forward will cause the same problem roboteye mentions - but be much WORSE on the toeside because the toes are simply further forward than your heels. I'm not saying this is DEFINITELY the problem, but just want to make SURE your equipment is set up correctly before diagnosing any technique problems.

And D is right - VIDEO is the way to go on this one! :)

[Fastskiguy]

as in reaching for the snow?

honestly, getting someone to diagnose your problem by looking at your tracks is not going to be accurate. Post a video of you riding, or at least some still shots.

21" is a pretty wide stance unless you're fairly tall.

I'll try to get a video if I can get on snow on Sunday and get a short shot of my setup too. I'm 6' 3", the 21" stance feels OK but I might try 20" just for kicks this weekend too.

I'm pretty sure it's due to the body position tho. I don't think my form is super bad but the video will tell.

[D-Sub]

at 6'3 21" is most likely PERFECTLY reasonable. Try 20.5, or 20, but (admitting that I am in no way an expert or a racer, but I've ridden a bit) 21" is not unreasonable in the slightest. Mike Tovino rides wide stances and he's like...I think 5'11" or 6' even. I ride 20.5 or .75...somewhere around there...

I'm sorry to rehash if you answered this already...when the chatter occurs is it the nose, waist, tail, or whole board "bouncing"?

[Guest]

I think the answer is very simple. Your stance is too wide. Too see if this is the case, when you do a toeside turn, concentrate on bringing your knees together during your toeside. I'm only telling you to do this as a diagnosis technique to see if this is the problem. You shouldn't ride like this all the time. When you bring your knees together, since your boots and bindings are rigid you will be forcing the board to bend into it's decambered arc.

If it doesn't chatter when you "bend" it by cheating your knees together, this tells you that there isn't enough of your weight concentrated at the norrowest part of the board.

Since your username is fastskiguy I assume that you ski. Whether you're carving a ski or a snowboard, they both work exactly the same. Look at where the boot is mounted on a ski. Directly over the narrowest point of the ski. If you move the weight too far away from the apex of the sidecut (the narrowest point of the board / ski) it's going to chatter.

I know some people will probably flame me for telling you to narrow your stance because wide stances provide an increase in fore / aft stability, but you can get too ridiculous with the width.

I ride between 18 1/2" and 19" on boards between 185 and 190cm, and about 16 5/8" on a 162. Never chattered.

later,

Dave R.

See, now I totally disagree with this. Never, ever bend your knees together. It does nothing except lessen the amount of room you have to form a solid base with your legs. You are effectively compromising your stability over the board.

For me personally, the chatter you see late in the turn is caused by not enough pressure on the rear half of your edge. As you progress through your turn, you want to shift your weight back somewhat, almost like the board is rocketing throu the turn out from underneath you, or at least that's what it feels like for me.

[Fastskiguy]

at 6'3 21" is most likely PERFECTLY reasonable. Try 20.5, or 20, but (admitting that I am in no way an expert or a racer, but I've ridden a bit) 21" is not unreasonable in the slightest. Mike Tovino rides wide stances and he's like...I think 5'11" or 6' even. I ride 20.5 or .75...somewhere around there...

I'm sorry to rehash if you answered this already...when the chatter occurs is it the nose, waist, tail, or whole board "bouncing"?

It's like the whole board is skipping and bouncing. Usually I bend at the waist big time, put my hands down, and vibrate to a jolting stop. I've found a video from last year, I'll post some shots from that (or the whole thing). I'm pretty sure it's body position.