Hardbooting instructor in trouble

[Steve Prokopiw]

Teaching beginners or even intermediate riders at h/b angles is just wrong. You can not show them what proper alignment is. You are doing nothing for your students. jack is right - the sport is still called snowboarding as far as I am concerned

And of course you can show proper alignment.Nobody is talking 60 degree stance and 185 board here.When it comes to adults it is THE NARROW MINDED FASHION BASED DICTATION OF EQUIPMENT AND STANCE THAT DOES NOTHING FOR STUDENTS . And last I checked it is still technically snowboarding.Hardboots have been a part of snowboarding for most of it's existence.

[John Gilmour]

I compensate for this by increasing the forward lean of the bindings, and moving the bindings physically closer to the heel-side edge of the board. Balances things out......

a little "Gilmour Bias"- (admittedly for softies less toe bias than heel) goes a long way to taming a wide board. I also go with more rear highback lean and considerably less on the front highback so you can pressure the back half of your edge on your heelside early. That way I can maintain heelside edge pressure cleanly throughout the apex of the turn and beyond without chatter.

It's not that softboot carving aggressively can not be done... its just that compensation for the imbalances must be made decisively and aggressively (mostly because you remove the lever arm <by being low...center of mass closer to the edge> the board has on you to eliminate the need for hardboot support... in doing so you commit to a particular turn/board inclination) . In this regard.... the progression is guessing the angle needed... going for it...and then discovering if you were correct in your estimation or not.

it isn't so much a step by step gradual progression... it's ...."do or do not do".

For Boris.... demonstrating the advantages of a hard boot to make the progression easier for some of the clients might help his case. I don't know how well Boris rips around in softies though.

Also for Boris.... a Burton ION is a very stiff boot.

perhaps almost as stiff as a softer randonee boot.

Any vids of your riding Boris.... in both soft and hard set ups??

[mr_roboteye]

I find it quite ironic that those who see themselves as guiding snowboarding into the future have become just as oppressive and inflexible as the ski culture was towards snowboarding when it was in it's infancy.

The duckfoot issue comes to me as a bit of a revelation for me as well. Snowboarding was / is about freedom. Being able to adjust your stance and angles to suit your bio-mechanics, riding type, riding style and board is one of the really great things about it. Dictating that everyone must ride duck is basically akin to saying everyone must drive a honda civic with the drivers' seat at five clicks back from fully forward. It will not fit and suit everyone.

good luck Boris,

.

[tufty]

Teaching beginners or even intermediate riders at h/b angles is just wrong.

The only time I'd suggest teaching beginners or intermediates at hardboot angles is if they were riding hardboots themselves. That used to happen (I was taught, as an absolute beginner, in hardboots) but it doesn't happen now because there is precious little hard gear in the shops (and even less demand for it). I think it's a taken that the vast majority (99.999999%) of students will be riding softboots, and that's fine; it shouldn't preclude the teacher being on hardboots anyway as long as they can teach.

What I was really getting at is not about gear but about angles. I can say with almost 100% confidence that *every* rental board in my resort is coming out of the shop mounted duck at at +-15 to 20° or so. A few riders turn up at my lift, ask for a screwdriver, start unscrewing their bindings and mounting them at something more sane.

Why "sane"?

Duck makes very little sense outside the park. It's great for landing (or taking off) switch, sliding rails, and that's about it. Otherwise, it's a rotten position for riding a board as opposed to "falling leaf" down a slope on the heelside edge. Most students won't go near the park, they will be cruising on the groomers and occasionally dipping into a bit of chewed-up powder on the edge of the slopes. They don't need or want to be mounted duck, they need and want a forward bias; duck is hurting their progression, not helping it. It's not helping snowboarding as a whole, either - if people find it difficult to progress beyond the absolute beginner level, and can feel that they are being held back by the equipment (they are, and they can), they can, will, and do, go back to skiing - you can jump on a pair of reasonably modern skis, know which end is the front, point them down a groomer, lean, and leave big smooth train tracks down the slopes.

Of course, duck is great for the rental shops, who don't have to think about which way to mount a board - mount 'em all the same, slap 'em in the racks, and churn 'em out the door - gone are the days where a shop would take your leg measurement and calculate stance width for you. The client's choice is not so much "what style of board do you want, what are you going to be riding" as "what colour do you want". It's great for the ski instructors, too - everyone is mounted the same, and you don't have to explain to 25% of the students that their boards are mounted with the bindings facing the tail.

[John Gilmour]

+ 1

mostly the ski resorts want to rent and sell gear and food and drinks + condo rentals.

duck makes a lot of boards ride very similar.. there won't be any expectations unmet... mostly because everything will ride equally mediocre for the most part.

tuffy is right about the rental shop too. No one in the rental shop wants to have to hang around in case a rush of goofy footers come in and need bindings swapped. The 4 rental worker guys after the morning rush can have 3 leave to go out and ride all day... also if everyone is riding slower duck... there will be fewer damaged boards.

Admin loves less mounting and unmounting of bindings as it means fewer crossthreaded inserts. Fewer damaged boards, more riders needing more than 2 lessons in some cases they might buy a group multi- lesson package (the real money maker). The beginners can't figure out why they can't improve and still scrape along after 16 more days on the slope.

Yep better to set everyone one up equally wrong..screw the customer...they don't know better anyhow. May as well make the on slope screwdrivers a real pain to use too.. that way you can sell them a multi tool.

If they get tired riding steeps duck..they will need a break, come and have a few drinks.. eat food...more profit. No ski resorts wants the customers to ride from open to close and not buy extra stuff.....that's so 1990's.

[stupidlong]

teach on a split board and ski to your lesson location than clamp it back together and teach than bare your white ass for them to kiss

[WASMAN]

The only time I'd suggest teaching beginners or intermediates at hardboot angles is if they were riding hardboots themselves. That used to happen (I was taught, as an absolute beginner, in hardboots) but it doesn't happen now because there is precious little hard gear in the shops (and even less demand for it). I think it's a taken that the vast majority (99.999999%) of students will be riding softboots, and that's fine; it shouldn't preclude the teacher being on hardboots anyway as long as they can teach.

What I was really getting at is not about gear but about angles. I can say with almost 100% confidence that *every* rental board in my resort is coming out of the shop mounted duck at at +-15 to 20° or so. A few riders turn up at my lift, ask for a screwdriver, start unscrewing their bindings and mounting them at something more sane.

Why "sane"?

Duck makes very little sense outside the park. It's great for landing (or taking off) switch, sliding rails, and that's about it. Otherwise, it's a rotten position for riding a board as opposed to "falling leaf" down a slope on the heelside edge. Most students won't go near the park, they will be cruising on the groomers and occasionally dipping into a bit of chewed-up powder on the edge of the slopes. They don't need or want to be mounted duck, they need and want a forward bias; duck is hurting their progression, not helping it. It's not helping snowboarding as a whole, either - if people find it difficult to progress beyond the absolute beginner level, and can feel that they are being held back by the equipment (they are, and they can), they can, will, and do, go back to skiing - you can jump on a pair of reasonably modern skis, know which end is the front, point them down a groomer, lean, and leave big smooth train tracks down the slopes.

Of course, duck is great for the rental shops, who don't have to think about which way to mount a board - mount 'em all the same, slap 'em in the racks, and churn 'em out the door - gone are the days where a shop would take your leg measurement and calculate stance width for you. The client's choice is not so much "what style of board do you want, what are you going to be riding" as "what colour do you want". It's great for the ski instructors, too - everyone is mounted the same, and you don't have to explain to 25% of the students that their boards are mounted with the bindings facing the tail.

I just started my 6 year old daughter on a board. I intentionally mounted the bindings non directional (duck) so that she would naturally decide which direction felt more natural. She is still just 'falling leaf' but she is clearly leaning towards being goofy rather than standard. Good thing I did set it up this way, cause I had put the leash on the wrong foot and she has to swing the board around the standard way in the lift line. I will be moving it to the other foot soon. I think duck foot could have some merit for the first lesson or two, till the student decides what is comfortable....

[RideGuy]

I also set my 6 year old son up with duck foot. We'll see how he progresses and where he goes with his riding and adjust from there. It only takes 5 minutes with a screw driver to try something else out. :)

Back on topic:

That sucks BlueB. I am also a CASI 2 and taught my last 10 years on hard boots only. I never got any resistance from either place that I worked at. I rode angles similar to yours and left the boots in walk mode. I had plenty of range of motion and rode a freeride board as well.

The only time I ever felt out of place was at the CASI pre-examiner courses. More than once I got negative comments from some of the course conductors.

[scrapster]

The first time I read this it instantly conjured up and image of some sinister marketing plan to turn every new snowboarder into a knuckle-dragging, duck-riding park rat. Thinking about it a little more, I wonder if management just sees Boris as a bit of a weirdo that's actually "doing it wrong" by riding hardboots and therefore setting a bad or confusing example for new riders--kind of like if you showed up to teach alpine skiing wearing water skis and a plastic garbage bag for a jacket. Let's face it, we are on equipment that is unconventional to the masses.

Or, it could even be more inane. Just think, what if they required all instructors to wear matching uniforms, right down to the soft boots? That would seem silly, but less like a diabolical plan.

Still, I feel an affinity to BB, not the least of which because I also switched to HB's because of intolerable foot pain wearing softies in most conditions. And I wonder if therein lies a possible, parallel strategy. Boris, although HBs offer other obvious advantages, to you they are an adaptive technology to help you overcome a physical injury or handicap. They do not effect your teaching or your ability to ride or demonstrate proper technique. And, from what it sounds like, your students like you! Not sure if that gives you any protection in Canada, but its a sympathetic position, and one that could have public relations value down the road if things turned bad and you wanted to fight back. Good luck!

[kinpa]

Luckily where I teach now, I don't get much slack from it other than the occasional joke from my boss when he is trying to figure out if I've got my ski gear or my snowboard gear on. I've had very few of my students ever ask about my boots or binding choice. I have an all-mountain board that I teach on with lower angles and when I am out on it for a run at some point, I just have to remind myself to keep my body aligned over my feet cause if I get my body into more of a forward stance when my feet are not, I tend to get bruises around my calf and shins. Ouch! I haven't really had much issue with the AASI clinics I've attended either, but I haven't been trying for any exams recently. Just update clinics for required credits. No desire to learn the freestyle stuff at this point. I'll probably go for my Level 2 in Alpine before I even thinking about progressing any more on my board and I think my next clinic for credit (In Feb) will be on skis.

Boris, like you, I find my hard boots much more comfortable than the softboots I last had. I've got bone spurs on the top of both feet and was always in a ton of pain in the softboots that I just done have with the hard boots. Let alone, that I could never get them tight enough for what I was used to.

Duck foot thing.... not a big fan at all. The only way I would suggest it is if that's how you naturally stand even off a board. I've seen plenty of people who naturally stand and walk like that. That's how their body is aligned and that's what their muscles are used to.

I wish you the best of luck. I don't think it's fair at all what they are doing to you. Have any of your students ever complained after the lesson that you know of?

[BigBump]

I think it's a shame what they are doing to you Boris. I've taught at 4 different mountains and they never had a problem with hardboot instructors. I really do think this is a case of the powers that be in your school not being well informed as to what hard booting is rather than some industry wide conspiracy theory.

As far as duck stance, I already debated this in another thread and love riding like that in softies and any issues carving heelside can be overcome by technique.

But I will add that it is your splay(difference between the binding angles) that is determined by your individual body. For example, if you are riding aligned well with your angles, then riding +30, +10 is really the same biomechanically as 10, -10. It's just a question of how you want to be oriented on the board. In softies, I prefer riding with my shoulders roughly lined up with my board to be my neutral stance, so I ride 15,-12.

[Rob Stevens]

I think it's a shame what they are doing to you Boris. I've taught at 4 different mountains and they never had a problem with hardboot instructors. I really do think this is a case of the powers that be in your school not being well informed as to what hard booting is rather than some industry wide conspiracy theory.

There's a sane comment.

The reality is one where a good instructor can teach a beginner to ride with a smile with no board on. Often, the student will benefit more from you being able to help them up than give a demo and stand at the bottom of the hill, waiting.

Gilmour... WTF? Why are you talking about CASI and American resorts? We don't do anything in the U.S. You must be talking about AASI... Totally different, Bro.

We cannot dictate anything to resorts. If they wanted to train their own instructors and not use CASI certified people, that's their choice. If they want to say that everyone has to ride certain setups, again, thier choice. The last example is one of pay grades. CASI almost found itself out the door when we took a few years suggesting that resorts pay their instructors more. That went over really well.

Stance angle choice is one of a performance expectation. I do not expect to carve like I do on my alpine setup on my F/R rig. I do not expect my alpine gear to ride varied terrain like my F/R board and boots. I don't expect my NoBoard to ride as aggressively as either. What I do expect is to have a different experience on all of the above and I own all of the above so I can do what I want to do. I grow very t i r e d of comments like "you can't carve that as well". I ****ing know that.

The reason I am where I am is because I'm a chameleon who can talk to any rider of any type of gear and make them feel like I'm one of them. I think you'd find that to be the case with most CASI 4's.

Broaden your horizons, if it doesn't hurt you. Like the gearheads on here say, "Try new gear". I had foot pain, too, until I switched to bindings with big, puffy straps and a spongy baseplate over the stiff base. I will ride a race board and not care who says what. Oh yeah... Our Executive Director (60 y/o +) rides duck in his hard boots because he is comfortable that way, not because he's trying to push some agenda. He is a great example of what older riders will do to keep enjoying the sport they love.

[110/220V]

@ 100USD lift ticket in Mammoth Lakes...why bother?

there is the new demographic mindset...also related witness from the local food cat...and black pass club

most program oriented to tourist who clamor to these amenities, modalities et that cater to elitist pov. You have volunteer situation that you choose..Just teach to their model or walk away, yea? but I guarantee you must not make a choice you will later regret..

[Tabatha]

A few years ago - before I made the switch to hard-boots, I took a series of "advanced adult" evening lessons at a local hill. At the time I had only ever seen one person hard boot and was very interested in trying to carve and possibly getting my own gear. The hill I was at didn't offer hard-boot lessons so I thought I would try and improve my soft-board skills.

I am a chicken! I have no desire to play in parks or on moguls, I just like getting down the hill gracefully and fast (I suppose that is why I am now in hard boots). Turns out that in the group of five of us, most people were in a similar position to me; none of us were interested in the park, or riding an entire run backwards, none of us were interested in the newest gear, some where off to big mountains and powder and wanted to work on technique. However the young (early 20's) instructor kept showing us and teaching us "tricks". We all asked for style, speed and I did ask about carving. But that was not what we were taught - they were grooming us for the next level course so that my group of 30+ weekend-riders could start to play in the park!

When I started I would not have noticed what gear the instructor would have used. As an adult learning a new sport (who had never even skied before), I was far more focused on getting to the bottom of the hill without hurting myself too badly than if the instructors set-up looked like mine. Since I ride goofy, their set-up is usually not like mine. As I have become better, I do notice the gear and I have to admit that I love watching good carvers because I can learn from them.

I doubt this helps Boris, but as someone who has recently taken lessons, it would have been nice to have been given more choice as to what I learned no matter what gear the instructor was using. At the end of the day, gear is what makes you comfortable and when you are comfortable, you are more likely to not hurt yourself or your students ... it almost boils down to safety! (You could say the same about duck ... but I am not qualified to weigh in on that discussion!)

I did find a local instructor at a local ski school who was willing to give me private lessons in carving last year. The hill was always very confused when completing the paper work because they kept going on about the equipment and that fact that I wasn't on soft-boots, even though I had all my own equipment, made them very uncomfortable.

I have to admit - I wouldn't have been too happy if I had have gone through the school and been given a 20-year old on soft-boots to teach me to carve, if I had specifically ASKED for a hard-boot lesson. Granted, my group classes were soft-boot classes, and I realise that that came with some restrictions on what can be achieved and therefore asking to be taught something that was beyond the instructors ability is also not too fair - but he didn't have to keep forcing tricks and the lure of the park on us either. He should have modified the class to suit the students a little more.

Bottom line, as someone who is still still learning, I want to learn from anyone who is willing to teach me, no matter what they are riding. As long as they know what they are talking about and don't put me, themselves or anyone else on the hill in serious danger. Oh; and don't force me into the park!

[DiveBomber]

[Jack M]

Teaching beginners or even intermediate riders at h/b angles is just wrong. You can not show them what proper alignment is. You are doing nothing for your students. jack is right - the sport is still called snowboarding as far as I am concerned

I think you misinterpreted my post. I think he should either teach on an alpine setup (boots and board) or a freeride setup. Hardboots on a freeride board isn't helping our cause.

Teaching a beginner lesson on a full alpine setup is not really an issue. I did it for 4 years on hardboots and a PJ6, FP 157, FP 167. Hundreds of beginners taught successfully.

In theory I agree with what Rob said about teaching a beginner lesson without any board at all. However I had a friend who got a lesson like that and they didn't like it. They found it too preachy.

riding +30, +10 is really the same biomechanically as 10, -10.

I don't think so. At 10/-10 you're craning your neck around a lot more just to see forwards, nevermind to check your heelside.

[Jack M]

Ahh Burton, again. That's funny... they invoke Craig Kelly while putting down forward angles... which he rode. Guess their advertising is done by some newb right out of art school. Probably never saw a resort without parks and hundreds of snowboarders.

Heh, I hope somebody poaches the pipe at the US Open, and then produces a copy of this ad upon bustage.

[Mr.E]

That's funny... they invoke Craig Kelly while putting down forward angles... which he rode.

Notice the "Hate less" box isn't checked...

[DiveBomber]

Notice the "Hate less" box isn't checked...

neither is "wax regularly"

whats with "own bolt cutters"??

[BLOODTYPEZX10R]

There is no way I could ride a board "duck" I am pigeon toed and my legs just don't go that way. it is too bad that there can't be a choice. Hardshell is very expensive and could not expect rental shops to nut up and outfit.

The very first snowboard of mine in 1980 had no bindings. i rode in powder and it had a 2x4 in the front and an a 9" sanding disc for the back foot. I could ride it quite well. THANK GOD FOR BINDINGS AND BITCHIN GEAR!! Too bad I am 45 and can feel the age creeping up. That is why I hardshell and feel the option should be available to the older crowd, There is way more to the sport than breakneck amplitude and spine twisting tricks.

[John Gilmour]

CASI was a mistake... I did mean the current American teaching model, not Canadian.

What concerns me about this thread is setting a precedent against hardboots.

In the 1990s I applied for a job at Burton as a Soft Boot development manager. I was expected to travel to the far east- negotiate terms from different factories making similar products ie..having alternate supply lines etc..

I made the cut..

got the interview

went to Burlington

at the time softboots were not very supportive. Think of the Airwalk Freeride 2... as a pretty stiff boot in its day.

I was pushing for a lace up inner liner, more lateral support, more heel retention, more padding atop the boot to protect the nerve over the top of the foot...

all good things..

here is what killed me.

I advocated using plastic covered by cloth to make the boots nearly seem like very very very soft and lightweight hardboots in disguise. Said they could be lighter too and more waterproof.

I pushed for this in the tongue of the boot and sides which I said could provide a lot of support...and the rest could come from a beefed up soft boot binding strap.

I thought a tunable "batten" type system (almost like sailing battens for sails) could be put in the boots (in addition) so riders could tune the flex. I though you could keep the battens in their sleeves- or temporarily "pop" them out of and next to the sleeves ....so you could get more flexibility for the park...then pop them back in for free riding with an easy velcro strap. You might be able to "stack" battens too to change the flex.... or make boots flex asymmetrically (this was before asym highbacks).

The interviewer heard me talk about plastic in the boots... and tuned out immediately.

BUT NOW in 2011-- IF YOU WERE TO CUT UP SOME SOFTBOOTS... there is a small endo skeleton of hardboot type pieces in there.

Ski resorts need to understand....support is support in a boot and it does not matter what they are made out of.

Yes the mechanics of a softboot and hardboot differ....but not always by much. Take for instance an older K2 Yeti step in boot (shimano type system) with an older softer raichle 124... they look different.. but the flexes aren't so far off.

[BlueB]

I had 2 very good and quick meetings today!

First, I discussed the situation with our Staff Trainer (a Level 4 and an Evaluator). He wasn't even aware that the conflict existed. He expressed full support to my case, under the condition that my clients are happy and teaching success rate is high.

Then, I went to se the School Menageress. I reminded her of my many years of service at Cypress, spotless track record, senior staff members who can give refference on me, mentioned 0 complaints from clients, explained my setup and teaching methods again. Then we discussed the support and ankle/foot damages. All went in very calm and friendly manner. Verdict was that the boots are not a problem, as long as the clients are happy I can carry on doing what I'm doing. We agreed it would be a good idea to provide a doctor's letter about the condition of the ankle, so if there ever was a complaint from anyone, resort would have their backs covered, without having to go into complicated technical explanations...

As it looks from this perspective, this time around problem was just few instructors asking the questions about my hard boots to our Assistant Manageress (skier), who then went on a little power trip. Sounds more uneducated then a conspiracy...

Big props to CASI for not letting me completelly on my own. Help was very subtle, yet brilliant. Big thanks to Bomber members for moralle support.

I guess, I'll be ok until the next management change over... Hope not to post any more updates here. At least not the bad ones.

[Bora20]

What if someone comes down to Cypress and would like a lesson in hardboots?

You never know when I might have some spare time in Vancouver and I could use some instruction.

Can you teach me then??

[CarvingScooby]

What if someone comes down to Cypress and would like a lesson in hardboots?

You never know when I might have some spare time in Vancouver and I could use some instruction.

Can you teach me then??

Go to the management/office/snow school: ask for Boris and private HB lesson. His teaching day is Tuesday. Or call 604.926.5612 first to set up.

RT

[scrapster]

Congrats Boris! I'm usually not a sucker for happy endings, but I like this one