How sad - VT College loss of life

[roscoe]

I agree with Allee, that (one of) the real lessons here is about in some way limiting especially kids/teens from getting guns. Depression is not a recent phenomena; the only reason we see these more devestating impacts coming from it today is because of the ease with which teens can get a hold of weapons -- ex. - I can go downtown right now and buy a rifle from walmart b/c I am over 18 and have a valid drivers license.

I think better health care systems (free would be nice) in schools and available for the public, and some kind of gun restriction will be necessary to solve the problem. Good, attentive parenting can't solve it all (always a good start though) - a parent can be as involved and caring as they can possibly be, and someone can still be depressed and never ask for help or truly show it to others.

I am truly sorry for anyone who has ever had to deal with the loss of a loved one to depression or any other mental illness

[Jack M]

disturbing video

jealousy is a deadly sin folks.

[Aisling]

"if they can't get guns" - that unfortunately would be impossible. because if you want to on a killing spree, you'd find a way to get one, legal or not. people have freakin made bombs themselves... mentally disturbed people find ways to get what they want done

"a polite society is an armed society" -true to a point.... but i don't want to digress onto a total gun control pro/con issue.

-

obviously i think that the school mishandled the situation. it's one of those things that just make you appreciate life... you never know when your ticket's getting punched.. .or by whom.

[skipuppy]

These shootings are finally starting to sink into my head. I heard mention of "school shootings" in class on Monday yet did not know what was being referred until I went online several hours later that evening. Yesterday I read a few articles on the shooting and even watched some videos. Today I read some more articles. I also wrote in the book our school has lying out on a table that we will send to Virginia Tech.

One of my friends told me that she had no clue about what happened until her professor started crying in class. He told them what had happened and just said how much they meant to him and how much he loved them.

I don't think this tragedy has really hit home. Many students are slightly shocked but we are so removed, and so much in our own world. We are busy with classes and really haven't talked about the subject. The President and various other members of the community have sent us e-mails, but those generally get ignored anyway.

My thoughts:

I am one of those people that will tell you "they will go to a good place, don't worry about them" and will also include Cho in the group. This means I believe that we all learn the truth, or see our wrongs at some point even if it is after life. I don't believe that there is a soul that can not see truth and can not understand what is good. I guess this means that I believe all souls re salvageable. My thoughts would not draw a distinction for where Cho is going and where his victims are going. I don't differentiate between him as an evil person or evil doer, or sinful person and the victims. I see them all as human, and some just snap and don't have the support structure available to them to prevent this from happening. This is a tragedy but sometimes we do the best we can.

The other thought I had looked at my role in the greater picture. I as a person tend to give people more chances than others. I tend to be there for them when they no longer have faith in systems. I usually have to win their trust over as other systems fail. Sometimes my actions put me at emotional risk and danger. Sometimes I find guys feeling bitter towards me because they felt I led them on because I was willing to listen and I actually cared yet they felt stabbed in the back when I had to reject them romantically. Then there are other students who go through this pain, but also come to realize that I might be the only person there for them. They fight back and try to force me into abandoning them the way everyone else has and somehow I manage to stay there.

Since you are close to me you have heard stories about some of these guys. You know that I love them and really do care for them. You may have also seen me cry when I just get so emotionally attached that their self destructive behaviour hurts me as well. One of these friends got kicked out of Brandeis. I believe that because of his reputation here at school (which is really quite bad actually) and in light of the recent events, he will never be let back here again. I think that we may see a wave of rejections from schools regarding students that have been forced into counseling, and then put on academic probation- I think fewer and fewer of them will be allowed to return- thus creating another system that will let them down.

I also hope that people realize how much listening to someone and seeing them as another human being when others might fail can make a difference. If you can open yourself up to someone's frustrations or tears, and just be there you may help them through that spot where they have the option of snapping and lashing out, or breaking and seeking help. If you can keep it in your heart to be open minded and loving towards people that you might have shunned before, you may find yourself helping someone that truly needed it. There is an emotional risk involved, and there is the risk of them lashing out at you- although usually, once they realize you arent going to **** them over like everyone else has, they realize that they are grateful and finally have someone important whom they can trust. This is particularly important for young people to remember as we generally have weaker support systems- so the support of a stranger can be needed so much more.

I suppose what I am asking of you, is that in your conversations reflecting on the Virginia Tech shootings you maintain an open mind. Don't gossip about the "shooter" as an evil person, but think of all the other people out there that need support and help. Cho got help and support but it was not effective. Nobody knows what kind of support is effective and there is no universal- but it has been my finding that if you are open minded and respectful, you will provide the space for someone to talk who really needs to. If you make jokes about "****ed up Asians" or "weird" or "challenged" people (and we all do) you may be shutting someone off. Practice compassion and love, especially towards those who are "socially awkward" or "uncomfortable"- they are humans too.

Love,

Tonja

[LeeW]

Skipuppy, this sounds alot like Anne Franke, and how she sees everyone is human, including Hitler. I had a hard time dealing with it, then. Still do, now-a-days. However, its a nice reminder that we all are salvagable.

[kjl]

This is not a gun control comment, but just a reality check. When 200,000,000 or so people have easy access to guns, this is going to happen.

..{snip}..

We also need to find a way to reduce the desensitising effects of video games, TV and movies.

Heya, I don't want to turn this into a political debate either; this thread is supposed to be showing grief and support.

But I just want to say that I don't think it's guns, violent videogames, or TV. I think some people are just nuts, and then they snap and do bad things. In this particular case, apparently the police search has found that this guy didn't play any videogames - no first person shooters, no wargames, no tetris. He was always on his laptop, but he was just writing. Writing nonsense manifestos and really bizarre plays, apparently.

I bring it up for two reasons:

1) I really like my videogames and my movies, as do hundreds of millions of other Americans who don't turn into mass murderers and

2) I think the energy that people put into trying to find a cause for one man to snap where perhaps one doesn't exist (remember the media frenzies about Marilyn Manson, Dungeons and Dragons, Doom, etc?) is energy wasted...

But I definitely feel sorry for the parents and loved ones of those hurt and killed at VT, and I also feel sorry for the parents of the shooter; in addition to the guilt they must be already feeling, I'm sure they will immediately be judged by many to be the cause of everything. Maybe they will turn out to have been horrible parents, but maybe not, and media circuses are not known for showing due process in character assassination...

[pebu]

For not being a political thread there sure are alot of "buts..."

This is not a gun control comment, but...

I don't want to turn this into a political debate either... But I just want to say...

If we don't want it to be a political thread at all, we should all leave the "buts" out of it.

Thanks

Ben

[BobD]

it's like talking about a terrorist attack, without talking about causes. So when x number of people die in a bomb incident, do you just say "sad, but it's too complicated to discuss the the causes", maybe it's just too controversial. "Lets just prey it doesn't happen again",or maybe too simple,"let's kick some butt".

As for video games, "I'm safe watching how I can be an unfeeling killing machine on my video screen, so it's not my problem if others are not".

I could add, "I'm safe with any gun I want, so it's not my problem if other people are not".

Sorry, this is the real world, with real human beings. It's inconvenient, I know. We can do things to reduce the incidence of these events or we can shed a tear for our concience and carry on, just the same.

BobD

[bobdea]

should fertilizer be baned too?

cars?

planes?

there are lots of ways to kill people is my point, a gun probably was just the easiest to come by.

[pebu]

And I'M just saying that if you want to discuss the reasons, that's fine. Except the way I understood it, the intentions of this thread were for condolences, prayers, experiences, etc. I've seen it in many forums already. "I don't want to do this, BUT..." Well, it's pretty obvious that you did want to do it otherwise you wouldn't have. If you're saying you don't want to do something to this thread, then are planning on doing it anyways, do us all a favor and make another thread where you can discuss things without the "but."

[BobD]

it's disrespectful that that we lost all those wonderful people with all thier potential, and learn nothing from it. Say your prayer to make yourself feel better if you think it will help, but it won't stop the next one. I'm more concerned about the next thirty people and the thirty after that.

bobdea said "there are lots of ways to kill people is my point, a gun probably was just the easiest to come by"

Isn't that what I was saying

BobD

[Derf]

there are lots of ways to kill people is my point, a gun probably was just the easiest to come by.

To my knowledge, it is a gun's sole purpose: killing

[Blue Bird]

To my knowledge, it is a gun's sole purpose: killing

Or a tool to feed a family.

Or a tool to protect a family.

Or a tool to bond a family.

Or a tool to teach responsibility.

..etc....

Everything has more than one use

[Recon]

Well put Blue-bird !

I agree there is a problem & its deep !

I could talk on this for days/however I'm on my lunch break !

I happen to be Pro -gun With 2 bullet holes of my own That might be a big statement ! Guns don't kill people / people do ! Guns were a big part of my life for Many yrs. I do not do much with them now ! But I see their necessity ! A armed citizen Is just that ! A un-armed citizen is a SUBJECT !!!

My youngest son is away in the war For a 2nd time ! Sure I worry

But I understand & see the long term picture !

Seeing the Whole picture as I think I do/ I tried to re-up & go myself !

The answer was YOU ARE TOO OLD !!!!!!!!!

Guess I'm a old Fart now & did not know it Haha!

[Derf]

Or a tool to feed a family.

Agreed, by killing an animal.

Or a tool to protect a family.

By menacing to injure or kill. Where I live, we don't need one to do this.

Or a tool to bond a family.

I wouldn't want a family bonded by a gun.

Or a tool to teach responsibility.

It could, but there are other less dangerous ways.

This is turning into a gun thread, and some here know that I hate guns, so I won't respond to this thread anymore unless it's about something else.

[Blue Bird]

I agree, lets take guns out of this thread

It is very sad that everyone is touched by this. I am relieved to know that this inspires a high level of emotion, it reminds me that the world is not as appathetic as it can seem at times.

Whatever our opinions are about topics related to this incident, I think that we all offer support to those who are not dealing well with this tragedy.

[Dr D]

This is from a vietnam veteran sniper who has just graduated from graduate school at the age of fifty and probably one of the wiser heads I know. Interesting angle that I haven't seen out there anywhere else.

"

"It is a sad state that we as Americans are in these days. At Virginia Tech...an old man barred the door and received multiple gunshot wounds as young healthy....some athletic....adults cower and ran from that senseless evil. While others ALLOWED themselves to lined up and executed. I thought education provided and enhanced objective thinking in people...not turn them into cowards and sheep. I can't believe that a young man or woman did not cover that old gentleman and allow HIM to escape. GOD forgive me for my harshness but maybe those are a gene pool that we don't need in America. What are we to do when those are the kind of people that define our future as a nation? These are no longer kids at 18 plus years. I have known many fierce, tough young men and warriors at 17 and 18 yrs and know a few young Hillbillys in WV that would have retaliated on that satanic idiot quite sufficiently. ..but sadly ...those kind of young men are becoming fewer every day. This kinder, gentler nation premise is just not going to work. Our first president had it right when he said "Eternal vigilance is thr cost of freedom." You aren't free when you live in fear or have to rely on someone else for protection...and personally...I don't need or want someone to protect me. "

Dr Hays

[Allee]

Bravo.

I thought the same thing when I read about that massacre in Montreal a few years ago, where the gunman ordered all the guys out of the room before shooting the women. And they just LEFT???

[Steve Prokopiw]

Let me get this straight...A person who has already lived three or four times as long, is supposed to be saved by someone who has their whole life in front of them.Young people who sign up for the armed forces do it of their own accord and are to be commended for it, but to call non-military young people cowards for not jumping up to bar the door,when there is no knowledge of what must have been going on in their heads, is jingoist crap and completely assenine.The "old' gentleman did the right thing.

[Dr D]

Let me get this straight...A person who has already lived three or four times as long, is supposed to be saved by someone who has their whole life in front of them.Young people who sign up for the armed forces do it of their own accord and are to be commended for it, but to call non-military young people cowards for not jumping up to bar the door,when there is no knowledge of what must have been going on in their heads, is jingoist crap and completely assenine.The "old' gentleman did the right thing.

The point is that the "old" gentleman would have done it at any age. People are who they are. I believe Dr Hays is lamenting the loss of a value system that would have driven every person in the room to act in defense of themselves and others instead of allowing themselves to be lined up like cattle and shot. As a survivor of the Holocaust the "Old " gentleman was someone who owned those values. NEVER AGAIN is a common sentiment among those survivors as I understand it.

[Derf]

We've had our share of shootings here in Montréal (and another one in Québec city).

Dawson, 2006

Concordia, 1992

Polytechnique, 1989

Québec National Assembly, 1984

These things are horrible. I can't speak for anyone, but you never know how you are going to react in a situation like this. Some say "I would have done this and that", some people who were there said "I should have done this or that", but when you hear gun shots or a gun is pointed at you, you never know how you are going to react. Some are going to be heroes, but most people, not. Liviu Librescu is a hero. He did not need to die, noone needed to die, but he saved the lives of others in his death.

[Dr D]

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/Could-Antidepressants-Explain-the-Virginia-Tech-Massacre--10928.aspx

It is interesting to note that to date the widely reported school shootings, Columbine etc, were all committed by people on phsychoactive prescription drugs. I haven't heard if this latest incident was related to an antidepressant but with his history of mental illness it seems likely.:(

[Neuffy]

Actually, on that note:

I just finished a philosophy course in which one of the assigned books to read was Robert Whitaker's Mad in America. Fairly interesting look at the history of the treatment of mental illness.

Basically, psychoactive drugs are nasty things. Whenever anything happens while somebody is taking them, it is automatically blamed on the condition that the drugs were "treating," meaning that the drugs, by definition, cannot actually cause harm.

Realistically, I don't think that antidepressants, antipsychotics, etc should be used to nearly the extent that they are (with the possible exception of lithium), and fully expect the future opinion of this time to be similar to our opinion of medical treatment a hundred years ago.

I love how people are blaming the victims. "It's your fault you all died because you weren't brave enough." Really nice. Perhaps that'd work if the guy had had just a knife, but guns change things a bit.

[Galen]

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/Could-Antidepressants-Explain-the-Virginia-Tech-Massacre--10928.aspx

It is interesting to note that to date the widely reported school shootings, Columbine etc, were all committed by people on phsychoactive prescription drugs. I haven't heard if this latest incident was related to an antidepressant but with his history of mental illness it seems likely.:(

I thought initially they said he was on antidepressants, though I haven't heard anything of late. Some of the effects of AD's is to smooth out emotions and "quite" your inner voice. that can be a real problem for a patient that exhibits violent tendencies, as they also mask self- examination and empathy. IMO they prescribe them too freely. It may be the answer for some, but I think a lot those on AD's would be better served with personal and/or group counseling of some sort. It would also make it easier to pickup on the warning signs of someone who is potentially dangerous. :(

[Dr D]

Actually, on that note:

Basically, psychoactive drugs are nasty things. Whenever anything happens while somebody is taking them, it is automatically blamed on the condition that the drugs were "treating," meaning that the drugs, by definition, cannot actually cause harm.

QUOTE]

Drugs in general enjoy this misguided "immunity". There are many drugs whose listed side effects include the very thing that they are supposed to prevent. NSAIDS are a listed cause of headaches for instance. Somehow we have lost our our ability to think objectively about many things. Just because the actor in the white coat on tv says its good for you doesn't necessarily mean its true. Personally I believe that our trust in government to protect us from everything whether guntoting crazies or questionable products is misguided. We have the FDA telling us that drugs are safe and yet they are killing more people every year (its now the 2nd leading cause of accidental death) they actually recently reapproved vioxx and celebrex for sale after pulling them from the shelves for causing heartattacks. Enough money in the right place buys the "TRUTH" in this country just like any other:angryfire

The FDA is about to close discussion on new "guidelines" that would effectively make all Alternative medicines vitamins and practices illegal for use without prescription. Your common everyday remedies will become the purvey of the benevolent FDA. VIT C could become a prescription drug if and only if the FDA decides that it is safe and scientifically valid. think about that for a minute. How much do we let the government decide whats good for our health? ALL kids exhibiting restless behavior suddenly required to be on phsychoactive drugs(ritilan) that's possible in the future. How many episodes of terror would we be forced to endure then?

Hot topic I realize but if you value your right to choose I suggest you write or call your congressman and the FDA and demand that your right to choose your own health not be infringed upon.

http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/98fr/06d-0480-gld0001.pdf

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/healthfreedomusa/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=7185