How sad - VT College loss of life

[skategoat]

I'm quite surprised as I live in Montréal (much bigger than Ottawa, 2 hour drive away) and I've had zero in 30 years. This includes walking or cycling alone at night in a desterted neighborhood, downtown or in industrial sectors. And I'm average height and size (5'8", 165 lbs). Drivers are dangerous though, the respect of the driving code has been declining steadily for a couple of years.

I've lived in Toronto for 27 years and had zero incidents. I lived in Baltimore in the seediest, crappiest part of downtown for 4 months and had zero incidents. I've hitchhiked across Canada and from Toronto to Florida and had zero incidents. Never once in my 45 years of living have I felt the need to be armed. I swear, I am living in a different universe than Justin A.

[Dr D]

Ok -- now we are getting somewhere. Enforcement is the key to the solution. In WA State -- http://crime.about.com/b/a/143373.htm

I would support a license to prove competency with a firearm, similar to a driver’s license or a motorcycle license. I would not and do not support gun registration. What is to be served by registering a gun – to tax it? That is the only reason you register an automobile- to tax it. Other than that what is served if you have a license to operate it.

IF you care to look you'll find that the NRA and most gunowners are solidly behind enforcement of existing laws. They lobbied heavily in favour of the three strikes laws and laws that increase penalties if a gun is used in a crime. One of gunrights advocates biggest complaints is the lack of enforcement. IT appears that the laws aren't the objective but rather bigger more intrusive government when more laws are written and more taxes levied and nothing is done to enforce them. basically more intrusive laws punish the lawabiding citizen when enforcement of existing laws would better solve the problems associated with guns.

[Dr D]

A NO gun law. I realise that isn't practical.

I wasn't talking about concealed carry permits, rather a licence to own a gun and the registration of guns.

I know what the standard answers to this idea are, but the reason the bad guys have guns is the lack of gun control laws and "enforcement". Licencing would make the people who want guns and the current gun laws, pay for the enforcement (kind of republican "you want it, you pay for it" approach).

BobD

Bob the current system requires a national background check and the same kind of assumptions that any other licensing scheme might use. You can't legally buy a gun without a check. Concealed carry laws all require classes and competence testing as far as I am aware. Registering firearms will do little other than to provide a basis for confiscation at some later date. I realize that isn't the current intent but it makes confiscation possible. Look at the debacle in canada when they tried national registration it doesn't work and is massively expensive. Taxes levied wouldn't pay for the buracracy it would require to manage it and if they did they would make shooting and self protection a rich man's priviledge. Guns have been used to enforce class seperation and race seperation throughout history. ITs better if they are equally available to all within the law.

The socalled gunshow loophole is all but nonexistent. A dealer has to sell through the national check system even at a gun show. Most booths at gunshows are dealers. Private sales are legal without a check but it is illegal to sell to a felon etc privately as well. IF the existing laws were enforced there is no loophole.

AS for paying for enforcement all the BATF has to do is stop spending money harrassing dealers and law abiding citizens and they would already have the funding and the mandate to enforce the law.

The history of gun control in the US is an interesting read. Most of the existing culture came about at the end of prohibition when the Government had to find something for all the prohibition agents to do. Hence the first of our gunlaws making law abiding citizens criminals over night. read the supreme court cases I have to look them up to get them names but there is only two or three. there is very little case law to base the current structure on and it would take very little to flip it all on its head constitutionally if the court would hear new cases on the second amendment. They haven't for many years though. makes you think????

[Dr D]

Shotgun preteen vs.. illegal alien Home Invaders

NRA files Butte Montana

November 5, 2006

Home invasion gone wrong for criminals.

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez 23 and Enrico Garza 26, probably

believed they would easily overpower a home alone 11 year old Patricia

Harrington after her father had left their two story home.

It seems the two crooks never learned two things, they were in Montana and

Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine. Patricia was

in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the

house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12 gauge

Mossberg 500 shotgun.

Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to

catch a near point blank blast of buck shot from the 11 year olds knee

crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals. When Garza

ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and

staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help

could arrive.

It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45 caliber

handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. The victim, 50 year old

David Burien, was not so lucky as he died from stab wounds to the chest.

Had this happened in CA, the ACLU would be out in force suing the 11 year old girl.

(Not to mention the LaRaza groups claiming she was discriminating.)

Nice Shootin', Patricia!

[C5 Golfer]

Concealed carry laws all require classes and competence testing as far as I am aware.

The socalled gunshow loophole is all but nonexistent. A dealer has to sell through the national check system even at a gun show. Most booths at gunshows are dealers. Private sales are legal without a check but it is illegal to sell to a felon etc privately as well.

Here WA state no class or testing is required for Concealed carry. Anyone who has a right to own a gun can get a CWP.

Gunshows in WA State do have a so called loop hole. A private Citizen can sell to another citizen without a check at a show-- but here is the rub, Washingto Gun Collectors who puts on the shows has a rule that only members can show, and only members can buy, and guess what you have to do to become a member - Right ! Background check- same as buy a gun.

[Dr D]

suprisingly self regulated bunch aren't we?!

As I said no one is more interested in proper enforcement than a lawful gun owner. WE have the most to lose if the right goes away.

[Justin A.]

In NH, you have to be 18 years old to obtain a CCW, and be of good standing with 'da law. You walk into the police station, fill out an application, and they mail it off to the Staties, then two weeks later you find out if you were denied (they're informing you that you're a felon) or that you're approved and you walk out with your permit. All the permit has on it is your height, sex, approximate weight, eye color, hair color, and name. No pictures, no fingerprints, and you don't have to take a class or anything (though most do so anyway). Here's the catch- you **** up, and it's gone forever, possibly for the rest of the CCW holders if you **** up bad enough. It's a "treat you like an adult until you prove otherwise" kind of deal. It works though. I'm going to be taking proficiency lessons ASAP when I get back home to get brushed up- not because it's required, but because I feel that it's the right thing to do.

[BobD]

Thanks guys for your patience and explaining your positions. I would ask just one thing, is there a realistic way to reduce gun violence or is it just going to be a fact of life in the future ?. Is the NRA putting as much effort into pushing enforcement as it does into fighting new and existing laws ?

BobD

[Justin A.]

Thanks guys for your patience and explaining your positions. I would ask just one thing, is there a realistic way to reduce gun violence or is it just going to be a fact of life in the future ?. Is the NRA putting as much effort into pushing enforcement as it does into fighting new and existing laws ?

BobD

I don't know about the reducing gun violence thing...fact of the matter is that there is VERY little crime with legally owned firearms. In the entire history of Class III licensing (the legal ability to own dangerous things - full automatics, silencers, explosives, etc.) Only twice has a legally owned Class III weapon been used in a crime (we're talking something like 80 years) and one was by a police officer . There are hundreds of shootings involving fully automatic weapons per year, but none of them are legally owned, so what do we do about it and how do we keep track of them? A person with a Class III license is basically on probation if they want to leave their home state with the weapon- they need to inform BATFE, the state police of the state they are visiting...it's a whole ordeal (and not one that I'm willing to go through, hence my lack of a Class III permit) but BATFE knows exactly where each weapon is and who owns it. These measusres are EXTREMELY strict, and I think that they would be totally unfeasable to enact on average Joe gun-packer, especially since the problem isn't him...the problem is average Joe Criminal.

[C5 Golfer]

[quote name=BobDg, is there a realistic way to reduce gun violence or is it just going to be a fact of life in the future ?. Is the NRA putting as much effort into pushing enforcement as it does into fighting new and existing laws ?

BobD[/quote]

While I sympathize with your “Reduce Gun Violence “ as I also wish we could completely stop any type of violence. The matter is more as a society we are in very big trouble – it is not just gun crime and murder.

Lets say your 4 yr old kid constantly writes on the walls of his/her bedroom with crayons – you constantly tell him don’t do that, it does not stop, so do you take away his crayons or do you teach the kid to respect the walls of his bedroom? I hope you teach the kid to respect the walls.

Back to crime, take for example meth related crime – why can’t we stop that? Take for example automobile theft – seems that would be easy since they are registered. In WA State we recently passed a law which our studious legislators think will help reduce auto theft. Get this - we, up to then had this law that one person had to steal more than 7 autos before any punishment was handed down by the courts. What these legislators thought they’d do is lower it to 3 and it would stop auto theft.. Dahhhh why not one auto and you suffer the consequences. Dahhh.. So now you get a get out of jail free card as long as you only steal 3 cars. How about home robberies and burglary? Why can’t we stop that? One big reason in my opinion – I always have one of those – is that crime right now “PAYS” so as long as we allow crime to be viable occupation it will continue to rise. And one other reason crime including gun crime is rampant –we do not have enough room at the inn for all the criminals so we let them out early. It is a great inventory system we have is it not? – FIFO prison – first in first out.

Imagine you and your partner for life having a family of 6-10 kids – now raise these kids without any firm direction, guidance, and respect. Also—there are never any consequences your kids need to worry about as they progress thru their teenage years. Now imagine what your first born would be like at 18. Would this be someone you’d be proud of – I think not. Also then imagine your last born – all he/she sees is the older siblings actions and behavior. What is that child going to be like at 18 if he/she makes it to that age. Well that little story is very analogous to the present society of today. Fix the crime issue and you fix the gun issue as a side affect.

Also—one other way to look at it…sorry for the long rant. Take I-5 freeway and there are a lot of speeding drivers – this is a fact. Now WA State patrol steps up the enforcement of speeding by issuing more tickets – even some at 5 miles an hour over. This seems a reasonable way to reduce people from speeding ( it has me) specially when it is publicized. Not once did the State Patrol talk about confiscation of cars to fix it , they enforced the laws on the books.

Good Day!

[Dr D]

Thanks guys for your patience and explaining your positions. I would ask just one thing, is there a realistic way to reduce gun violence or is it just going to be a fact of life in the future ?. Is the NRA putting as much effort into pushing enforcement as it does into fighting new and existing laws ?

BobD

The NRA is probably the largest group lobbying for enforcement. Everytime a new law is proposed the major part of their position is that previoulsly existing laws already cover whatever prompted the new one and enforcing the existing laws is answer. There are a few laws that the NRA has worked to repeal. most of these are related to types of weapons and silly restrictions on whether or not a certain type can have grips mounted a certain way etc. most of the Clinton legislation was pertaining to cosmetic differences rather than functional differences etc. The saturday nite special ban idea would be another example. Many of the proposed laws ban cheap guns "junk guns" " saturday nite specials" etc. the bottom line is that if cheap guns are banned then its a rich man's game again and the poor and lower classes who often need the protection the most are discriminated against. Its an Elitist idea and not a very well thought out one at that. The cute names are just media frosting.

In the Columbine incident something like 21 existing gun laws were broken. The problem was obviously lack of enforcement (and perhaps parenting) not the lack of gun control laws. Even in VT he broke at least one law by just stepping on to campus with a gun. I haven't heard the total broken. He may have bought them legally but that was the extent of legal use.

[Jon Dahl]

In Washington state open carry is legal w/o any license/permit. I have done it 2-3 times as an experement, to see and judge reactions. Now, this was 12-15 years ago, and with only one exception I was harrassed or questioned as if I were a criminal, and this by citizens, not cops. Also, we need to remember that this policy is in perfect accord with the State Constitution, which is in accord with our Federal constitution. Who trained this mindset into the general population? And what is the agenda behind it?

[C5 Golfer]

In Washington state open carry is legal w/o any license/permit. I have done it 2-3 times as an experement, to see and judge reactions. Now, this was 12-15 years ago, and with only one exception I was harrassed or questioned as if I were a criminal, and this by citizens, not cops. Also, we need to remember that this policy is in perfect accord with the State Constitution, which is in accord with our Federal constitution. Who trained this mindset into the general population? And what is the agenda behind it?

Jon, you may want to read this before you do more OPEN carry.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

OR this one with the guy in Ellensburg.

http://fishorman.blogspot.com/2005/12/judges-decision-is-in.html

[Dr D]

It sure seems unconstitutionally vague to me. I suppose it was intended to imply wearing a weapon while having a heated discussion with someone etc. It will no doubt raise all sorts of issues with LIBS who are offended at anything and alarmed by the very idea of a gun. The answer is peaceful protest in large numbers with open carry being the uniform of the day. what are they going to do arrest everyone? The more people carry the more you build a precedent that its ok and reaffirm that it is a basic right.

In MT we have open carry with the exception of banks and post offices etc. Up until the last few years it was common to see long guns in every truck window. I often rolled into highschool 2 hours late in december in hip waders with a shotgun in my truck. It would be less accepted today I am sure but we never had any school shootings either. ( I wasn't the only one it was common) We had shooting teams and trap teams and many of us would leave school ready for an afternoon hunt in the fall. Its not an issue here but we do use common sense. Most stores carrying ammunition require an open bolt or action to enter the store but none deny access. Well maybe WALMART but who shops there anyway:lol:

[Dr D]

Let's stop licencing vehicles and drivers and see what happens. We would all be driving armoured personnel carriers to be safe. On the roads we accept a practical level of regulation that balances safety with convenience. I don't think we have that balance with guns. What would be wrong with needing a licence to own a gun ?

As for the Swiss, it's not a typical industrial country. It would be like comparing the most affluent suberb with the rest of the average city in the US. There's going to be less crime there, with or without guns. The Swiss do have the highest suicide rate in Europe.

I used to think the high US suicide rate was due to guns as well. Then I moved here and heard "new country music". I guess you can't blame guns for everything.

BobD

I blinked and missed this one:eplus2:

The only reason cars are registered is for the purpose of taxation.

Licensure of the driver could be partly assigned to safety concerns but in practicallity it is a revunue raising measure as well. If it was about safety you wouldn't need 3 DUI's to lose it and you would be tested for competency more than just the first time. I know some older folks that should have lost the license years ago but haven't been tested since 1950 whatever.

The pat answer is for the safety or for the children or for the good of all etc.

The truth is is they told you hi I am from the government and we are going to license your blender so we can make yearly tax revenue you'd have a cow. IF they come and say Hi we're going to license your blender because children have been hurt and not everyone is operating them in a safe manner and we'll tax you a little to cover costs, It doesn't sound so draconian. It doesn't mean they don't want into your pocket:freak3:

[C5 Golfer]

In MT we have open carry with the exception of banks and post offices etc. Up until the last few years it was common to see long guns in every truck window. I often rolled into highschool 2 hours late in december in hip waders with a shotgun in my truck. It would be less accepted today I am sure but we never had any school shootings either. ( I wasn't the only one it was common) We had shooting teams and trap teams and many of us would leave school ready for an afternoon hunt in the fall. Its not an issue here but we do use common sense. Most stores carrying ammunition require an open bolt or action to enter the store but none deny access. Well maybe WALMART but who shops there anyway:lol:

Thinking of schools and guns... This is a true story, I know cuz it is me who did this.

I was brought up in Iowa - Sioux City to be exact. Back in time about 1958 or so- Elementary school, I think it was 5th grade - our assignment of the day was to bring a "show and tell" for the next day. Since I was born with gunpowder and gasoline running in my veins I decided my show and tell was going to be a Model 1884 45/70 Trapdoor Springfield rifle I got from my grandfather. Not the carbine but the big rifle with rod bayonet, it was taller than I and weighed what felt like at the time about 40lbs. Anyway my parents thought it was a good idea so I left the next morning lugging this fine rifle. ( I still have it today) The walk was about 1+ miles. Anyway I got to school and walked in front door and then onto class with my rifle and the teacher just says, “Well, Allen is that your show and tell?” I say “Yes” and she just says, “Good, place it in the corner over there”. My Oh My things have changed.

[Justin A.]

Jon, you may want to read this before you do more OPEN carry.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

OR this one with the guy in Ellensburg.

http://fishorman.blogspot.com/2005/12/judges-decision-is-in.html

Looks to me like Open Carry is covered by section C of this one that you posted:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

In NH we have open carry everyplace that it isn't prohibited by federal law: Post Offices, Government Buildings, Schools. You can't have a loaded weapon in or on a vehicle without a CCW Permit though. The State Supreme Court (I think it was them) has ruled that "another person's alarm or worry does not over rule another person's right to the second amendment" or something like that. Basically, people can bitch and moan all they want, and the police will come and check you out, but there is NOTHING they can do about it-legally.

[C5 Golfer]

Looks to me like Open Carry is covered by section C of this one that you posted:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

.

Justin, Not quite sure what you mean by it is covered in "c" -- the key word in that sentence is Presently -- if you read #1 -- you can see the words "that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." That alarm thing is what will get you in trouble with Mr John Law. I would not push this open carry thing to far -- read like not at all. You might also look at it like a poker game -- you are showing your hand before you have to.. Get a permit and play safe. My old fart advice of the day..

Hey on a happier note: road the bike to work today. Beautiful day.

[Dr D]

Thinking of schools and guns... This is a true story, I know cuz it is me who did this.

I was brought up in Iowa - Sioux City to be exact. Back in time about 1958 or so- Elementary school, I think it was 5th grade - our assignment of the day was to bring a "show and tell" for the next day. Since I was born with gunpowder and gasoline running in my veins I decided my show and tell was going to be a Model 1884 45/70 Trapdoor Springfield rifle I got from my grandfather. Not the carbine but the big rifle with rod bayonet, it was taller than I and weighed what felt like at the time about 40lbs. Anyway my parents thought it was a good idea so I left the next morning lugging this fine rifle. ( I still have it today) The walk was about 1+ miles. Anyway I got to school and walked in front door and then onto class with my rifle and the teacher just says, “Well, Allen is that your show and tell?” I say “Yes” and she just says, “Good, place it in the corner over there”. My Oh My things have changed.

Pretty common piece of americana being lost as we speak:(

In those days we didn't have shootings in school either.

I played my second round of pasture pool of the year:eplus2: and shot a 96 which is great for me. I am usually ecstatic to get close to the 100 mark.

[Jon Dahl]

Open carry in Az. is rule of law. I spoke with a Sheriff last August when I traveled through there to take my step-daughter to college. At least half of the weapon must be open to the eyes to fall under the clause there. Went to a grocery store when I was in Prescott and saw a guy with a Glock in an open top composite holster and said to myself "YES! I gotta move here!"

[Justin A.]

Justin, Not quite sure what you mean by it is covered in "c" -- the key word in that sentence is Presently -- if you read #1 -- you can see the words "that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." That alarm thing is what will get you in trouble with Mr John Law. I would not push this open carry thing to far -- read like not at all. You might also look at it like a poker game -- you are showing your hand before you have to.. Get a permit and play safe. My old fart advice of the day..

Hey on a happier note: road the bike to work today. Beautiful day.

Touche on the "presently" modifier, that's why I'm not a lawyer .

I'm of the opinion that you should keep your piece away until it's time to use it, but the nice thing about Open Carry states is that if you show it accidentaly, then you showed it accidentaly- oops :o , as opposed to being arrested for it.

[C5 Golfer]

interesting short story on the news-- sorry bout the advertisement at the begginning.. wish I could block that out but muting the volume control helps.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3149487

[Dr D]

Pretty good balanced story from 20/20 I am impressed:biggthump

[Justin A.]

Pretty good balanced story from 20/20 I am impressed:biggthump

I'm not so sure that it's a balanced story....

BUT I agree with what was said, 100%. I don't need to be worried when walking around, because I have 13 little helpers piggybacking along with me.

[Dr D]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19209310/

interesting article focused on better enforcement of existing laws