How sad - VT College loss of life

[Dr D]

I'd say something but I know nothing about Albedo changes,

So I'll change the subject -- Dr D -- since you are from Montana - any chance you had the pleasure of knowing or meeting the infamous Elmer Keith?

I have yet to read his book "Hell, I was There" but one of these days I will.

I'd consider him one of my heros. A man's Man

http://www.sixguns.com/bunkhouse/elmer_keith.htm

I haven't had the pleasure though I would love to say I had. the man changed so much of what we knew to be true in the world of large bore handguns. The .44 MAGNUM is a real passion of mine. He was indeed a mans man and a real contributor to many different lives. A real shoot straight and speak the truth kinda guy.

[Dr D]

Its not working so good in South Africa

Thieves glue naked man to bike

Gang of thieves forces South African to strip, then ransacks his house

Reuters

Updated: 8:31 p.m. MT May 3, 2007

<SCRIPT language=javascript> function UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = document.getElementById("udtD"); if(pdt != '' && n && window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D(pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt,(('false'.toLowerCase()=='false')?false:true));} } } UpdateTimeStamp('633138426661900000');</SCRIPT>

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa - A gang stripped a South African man before gluing him to an exercise bicycle while they ransacked his house, according to a report Thursday.

SAPA news agency said the attackers, dressed in suits, hijacked a man in his 50s and forced him at gunpoint to take them to his home in Johannesburg.

“The victim was then forced to strip, after which he was superglued to the seat of an exercise bicycle, his hands were superglued, as were his feet and then his mouth was superglued shut,” SAPA quoted Mark Stokoe, a spokesman for emergency services Netcare 911, as saying.

The man was rescued about three hours later when his partner arrived home, SAPA said.

South Africa is battling one of the world’s highest crime rates which has prompted concerns that violence might mar the 2010 soccer World Cup, which the country is due to host.

A police spokesman could not immediately comment on the report. No one at Netcare 911 could be reached.

Copyright 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

<SCRIPT>var url=location.href;var i=url.indexOf('/did/') + 1;if(i==0){i=url.indexOf('/print/1/') + 1;}if(i==0){i=url.indexOf('&print=1');}if(i>0){url = url.substring(0,i);document.write('URL: '+url+'

');if(window.print){window.print()}else{alert('To print his page press Ctrl-P on your keyboard \nor choose print from your browser or device after clicking OK');}}</SCRIPT>

[Justin A.]

When did science lose its healthy dose of skepticism?

Same time it lost it's healthy dose of funding . Scientific studies can't afford to be scientific anymore, now they need to report what people want to hear so that they can get paid.

[Dr D]

Same time it lost it's healthy dose of funding . Scientific studies can't afford to be scientific anymore, now they need to report what people want to hear so that they can get paid.

that's absolutely true:angryfire I spend a lot of time reading medical research and its amazing how many studies get nixed when the preliminary results don't look like they'll be "as expected" You can often tell almost from the beginning that they were rigged to get a specific result.

The experiment design is based on what can we do to get this result instead of lets try this and see what happens.

More Big dollars at the expense of little people.

hows that for a statement from a right wing conservative nutjob?:lol:

[kipstar]

Its not working so good in South Africa

Aside from having rampant gun problems, Some south african take a guy at gun point and glue him to his bike...what exactly is the point of this, that guns made it worse or better?

Sorry, for being dense, don't use english much these days and am totally confused what you are trying to say; this is a pro gun or anti gun thing>??

[C5 Golfer]

Aside from having rampant gun problems, Some south african take a guy at gun point and glue him to his bike...what exactly is the point of this, that guns made it worse or better?

Sorry, for being dense, don't use english much these days and am totally confused what you are trying to say; this is a pro gun or anti gun thing>??

It can be viewed both ways...depending your your own beliefs. Fact is there is a lot of out of control crime in S. Africa. I for one would like to be armed - well armed - if I lived there, Some would like gun control but those generally do not understand that fighting organized crime with out of control illegal gun sales is impossible with a possible corrupt police dept.

Light reading ahead if you want to hear more

http://www.gunowners.org/op0434.htm

http://www.worldpress.org/2473.cfm

[BlueB]

Aside from having rampant gun problems, Some south african take a guy at gun point and glue him to his bike...what exactly is the point of this, that guns made it worse or better?

It's a bit unclear to me, too... However the guy was lucky, he lived to tell the story. Normally he would get killed or gang raped (AIDS for sure). Sounds like someone was just having a mild revange for something...

Anyhow, South Africa has huge ammounts of legal weapons, and maybe even more of ilegal ones. When I lived in Johannesburg, I slept with a gun under my pillow and carried almost all the time. It was always loaded with a bullet in the barrel. Half of my bullets were holowpoints (dum-dum), which is legal.

I do not see any point of trying to ban the guns there, as every criminal can just get an AK47 (or whatever) smuggled in from Mozambique, Zim or Namibia...

Closest I got to using a gun on a person was firing a shot in the air to scare the guy stealing my car parked in the driveway. Then shortly before I left the coountry, I was getting ready for a gun fight with car-jackers approahing my car while I was filling up, in the night. The pump boy ran away already. Finally they decided they didn't quite like my beaten up Merc, or maybe my dark but composed facial expression, and backed off. Third time was when approached by modern pirats, some 20NM offshore of Trinidad. Again, the obvious rediness of my crew turned them away after some 15-30 seconds of stearing to each others.

To cut the long story short, I would rather give myself a chance to protect myself and my familly from a beast, weather it came in animal or human form. One can not relly on the governments to protect us. Actually, sometimes it is the governments that one needs to be potected from. That includes the "western" countries too.

Boris

[Dr D]

Aside from having rampant gun problems, Some south african take a guy at gun point and glue him to his bike...what exactly is the point of this, that guns made it worse or better?

Sorry, for being dense, don't use english much these days and am totally confused what you are trying to say; this is a pro gun or anti gun thing>??

I was being sarcastic. After recent massive guncontrol laws went into effect South africa has experienced a huge surge in violent crime. the Crime of choice is home invasion. The rich are able to build high walls and install good security measures etc. while the poor and middle class get to either break the law and protect themselves or lie in bed at nite wondering if they are next. ITs a good example of the adage IF you outlaw guns only OUTLAWS will have them.

[BobD]

I was being sarcastic. After recent massive guncontrol laws went into effect South africa has experienced a huge surge in violent crime. the Crime of choice is home invasion. The rich are able to build high walls and install good security measures etc. while the poor and middle class get to either break the law and protect themselves or lie in bed at nite wondering if they are next. ITs a good example of the adage IF you outlaw guns only OUTLAWS will have them.

You're putting the USA and South Africa in to one group (need guns to be safe) as opposed to countries with tight gun control (don't need guns to be safe). I can understand the societal causes for the problems in SA. Are you saying American people are just plain violent and that's the problem.

I think American people are no different to the people in countries with low murder rates. In fact, some of those countries, UK for instance have higher violent crime rates. If there were US style gun control laws in those countries, I'm sure they would have higher murder rates too.

I know that politically there is no chance for sensible gun control (eg. specific purpose permits for people with cougers in thier back yard), but to argue that guns make the average person safer is delusional.

BobD

[Dr D]

The UK is another example actually. Massive new restrictions on gun ownership accompanied by a surge in violent crime.

Guns don't make the average person safer. The right to own them does.

When Florida instituted the right to concealed carry (licensed by the way)

violent crime dropped by double digits. here's the kicker only 3% of Floridians actually went out and took advantage of the right and got licensed to carry. So it appears that the uncertainty of who or who ain't carrying is a major deterrent to violent crime. The right to own and carry wakes you safer whether you choose to actually carry or not.

Read "More Guns Less Crime" by jon Lott for more data on this. It has happened in every state that has instituted new carry laws. Its not an isolated phenomenon. the opposite occurs worldwide when gun rights are taken away. Genocide eventually follows historically. Its worth THINKING about.

[Justin A.]

The UK is another example actually. Massive new restrictions on gun ownership accompanied by a surge in violent crime.

Guns don't make the average person safer. The right to own them does.

When Florida instituted the right to concealed carry (licensed by the way)

violent crime dropped by double digits. here's the kicker only 3% of Floridians actually went out and took advantage of the right and got licensed to carry. So it appears that the uncertainty of who or who ain't carrying is a major deterrent to violent crime. The right to own and carry wakes you safer whether you choose to actually carry or not.

Read "More Guns Less Crime" by jon Lott for more data on this. It has happened in every state that has instituted new carry laws. Its not an isolated phenomenon. the opposite occurs worldwide when gun rights are taken away. Genocide eventually follows historically. Its worth THINKING about.

Makes sense.

Back in NH I've only had to deal with possible (impending) violent attacks 2 or 3 times in 19 years...it's legal to carry a firearm in NH.

Here in Ottawa, I've had to deal with impending or (most recently) in progress attacks 3 or 4 times in the past 3 months...total ban on carrying concealed here.

I've had enough problems up here where I'm packing up and leaving (glad I'm still in school and can just transfer ) to get away from the crime and crazies.

I'm a firm believer that CCW laws make the average person safer, whether or not they decide to exercise that right. I think that the possibility of the potential victim being armed keeps them from becoming victims.

The craziest thing is that people are afraid of ALL guns...it's a bit ridiculous IMHO...my friend who just applied for his CCW permit said to me "oh my god...I wonder just how many people are packing heat if it's this easy to do" To which I replied "you don't need to worry about them, you need to worry about the people who don't come here (we were at the police station) before carrying". The fact of the matter is that you almost never need to worry about people carrying guns legaly- if they cared enough about the law to go out and get their permit first and have it on file that they carry a concealed weapon, chances are that they don't intend to use it for any deviant purpose.

[C5 Golfer]

I know that politically there is no chance for sensible gun control but to argue that guns make the average person safer is delusional.

BobD

Guns don't make the average person safer. The right to own them does.

When Florida instituted the right to concealed carry (licensed by the way)

So it appears that the uncertainty of who or who ain't carrying is a major deterrent to violent crime. The right to own and carry wakes you safer whether you choose to actually carry or not.

Hey Bob D... Let see if you are serious about the delusional comment of your post.

In the spirit of Dr D's post where he says "The right to own a gun makes us safer"

Bob D, I'd like to ask if you would make a big sign -- big letters let say about 12" high characters so you can see it from the street. this sign is hung on your front door and says "THERE ARE NO GUNS OR WEAPONS IN THIS HOUSE" , if you have loved ones living in other locations, please make signs for them and ask them to place it on their front door.

If you do this then I know you live in a safe place as do your loved ones, if you do not want the sign on your front door we realize the reason why.

I hope this makes a point.

[Derf]

Makes sense.

Back in NH I've only had to deal with possible (impending) violent attacks 2 or 3 times in 19 years...it's legal to carry a firearm in NH.

Here in Ottawa, I've had to deal with impending or (most recently) in progress attacks 3 or 4 times in the past 3 months...total ban on carrying concealed here.

I've had enough problems up here where I'm packing up and leaving (glad I'm still in school and can just transfer ) to get away from the crime and crazies.

I'm quite surprised as I live in Montréal (much bigger than Ottawa, 2 hour drive away) and I've had zero in 30 years. This includes walking or cycling alone at night in a desterted neighborhood, downtown or in industrial sectors. And I'm average height and size (5'8", 165 lbs). Drivers are dangerous though, the respect of the driving code has been declining steadily for a couple of years.

[BobD]

The present gun laws make it unsafe to hang such a sign outside my house. I do of course see your point. The same effect could still be achieved with much tighter controls. A licenced hand gun would be just as much of a deterrent.

There maybe a surge in low level (not serious) violence in UK ,but it's always been violent. The murder rate is actually falling, so it depends on your definition of safer. Do you mean less likely to be involved in a violent incident or do you mean less likely to be murdered.

When we were living in the UK, my wife (who is American) thought it was so dangerous there. I figured why she thought that. When there is a murder in the UK It normally makes the national papers and the national evening tv news. In most major US cities, you have to kill at least two people to make the local front page and maybe six + to make the nationals. Murders are so common here, that unless it's a juicy one, it's not news.

The idea that making guns freely available (even just to law abidding citizens) in the UK would reduce crime without an ###% increase in murders doesn't make sense.

BobD

[bobdea]

hey BobD,

explain why the swiss have so many shootings?

per capita way more guns in the land of chocolate and clocks but fewer shootings than their neighbors with tight gun control laws?

Americans are pretty stupid when it comes to violence for the most part, so yes, we are more violent

[C5 Golfer]

The present gun laws make it unsafe to hang such a sign outside my house. I do of course see your point. The same effect could still be achieved with much tighter controls. A licenced hand gun would be just as much of a deterrent.

BobD

Bob, What gun law would make it safe to hang that sign? Can you describe this law or how would be writen? Also-- what do you mean by a licensed handgun?

My intention is not to sound like a smart a** but have a civil discussion-- but cars are registered and licensed -- they kill more and more people everyday. registering the auto has not kept drunk drivers off the road.

[BobD]

Let's stop licencing vehicles and drivers and see what happens. We would all be driving armoured personnel carriers to be safe. On the roads we accept a practical level of regulation that balances safety with convenience. I don't think we have that balance with guns. What would be wrong with needing a licence to own a gun ?

As for the Swiss, it's not a typical industrial country. It would be like comparing the most affluent suberb with the rest of the average city in the US. There's going to be less crime there, with or without guns. The Swiss do have the highest suicide rate in Europe.

I used to think the high US suicide rate was due to guns as well. Then I moved here and heard "new country music". I guess you can't blame guns for everything.

BobD

[Justin A.]

Let's stop licencing vehicles and drivers and see what happens. We would all be driving armoured personnel carriers to be safe. On the roads we accept a practical level of regulation that balances safety with convenience. I don't think we have that balance with guns. What would be wrong with needing a licence to own a gun ?

As for the Swiss, it's not a typical industrial country. It would be like comparing the most affluent suberb with the rest of the average city in the US. There's going to be less crime there, with or without guns. The Swiss do have the highest suicide rate in Europe.

I used to think the high US suicide rate was due to guns as well. Then I moved here and heard "new country music". I guess you can't blame guns for everything.

BobD

In the only states that don't require a license to carry are Vemont and Alaska- Look at their crime rates compared to say, Massachusetts or California who both have VERY strict licensing laws. In most states, you do need a license to own a gun, and CERTAINLY to carry it with you. I happen to reside in one of the states that doesn't make you register your guns, get a license to own them, or anything-only to carry a concealed pistol or revolver, and I'd say that with the exception of the 10-15 miles closest to the border of Eastern Mass (sorry all you law-abiding mass citizens), that it's pretty damn safe there-and NH gets a "D" from the Brady Campaign for gun control...

[Justin A.]

I'm quite surprised as I live in Montréal (much bigger than Ottawa, 2 hour drive away) and I've had zero in 30 years. This includes walking or cycling alone at night in a desterted neighborhood, downtown or in industrial sectors. And I'm average height and size (5'8", 165 lbs). Drivers are dangerous though, the respect of the driving code has been declining steadily for a couple of years.

I was quite surprised as well...everyone told me that there is such a military and police presence in Ottawa that nothing ever happens except in a few bad neighborhoods-woops, fooled me. I'm 6'0" and 250 and tend not to look like someone to pick a fight with, maybe they can just tell that I'm an american and want to teach me a lesson? Lesson taught- I'm going home-but I'll be back to visit for sure, it's nice country up this way, I could just do without most of the people in/around Ottawa.

[C5 Golfer]

The present gun laws make it unsafe to hang such a sign outside my house. I do of course see your point. The same effect could still be achieved with much tighter controls. A licenced hand gun would be just as much of a deterrent.

BobD

Bob D, What gun law would make it safe to hang that sign? Can you describe this law or what would be writen?

[Dr D]

The present gun laws make it unsafe to hang such a sign outside my house. I do of course see your point. The same effect could still be achieved with much tighter controls. A licenced hand gun would be just as much of a deterrent.

The idea that making guns freely available (even just to law abidding citizens) in the UK would reduce crime without an ###% increase in murders doesn't make sense.

BobD

licensed handguns

Common misconception. Concealed carry is a licensed event. you have to pass a background check and in most states be approved by local law enforcement. the Degree of local approval has been lifted somewhat in what are called shall issue states. shall issue means they can't deny you one if you meet the criteria whether the local sheriff likes you or not. This removes the last of the Jim Crow laws regarding gun ownership. Local sherriffs would often deny minority applications.

If you read the data available Concealed carry does decrease violent crime in every instance. violent crimes include murders rapes muggings etc.

Read more guns less crime its a real eye opener written by a guy trying to prove that gun control worked. he found the opposite to be true. this is also why the clinton crime bill was allowed to sunset. after ten years it just wasn't working.

[Dr D]

Hey, Dr D --I think this is the guy who wrote those words.

Looks like a fine peice for a Montana outing.

here's the write up to go with that video.

Read the gun story before watching the video! This puts a new meaning

on"GET A GRIP"

NOW HERE IS YOUR GUN..............

For sure anyone who knows anything about guns will like the following.

The Pistol every home owner needs--60 Caliber. This video is basically a

"show an tell" for a custom built Thompson Encore (fancy version of the

Thompson Contender).

The Caliber .600 Nitro Express.

That's right... An elephant gun round in a handgun.

The story goes that the gun that built it is some kind of custom gun maker.

He built this as an exhibition piece. He takes it to the range with him

just to show it off, and the big guy that shot it (In the video) had been

bugging the builder to let him shoot it. Now think about this... Only until

fairly recently (early-mid '80's) the 600 Nitro Express was hands down the

biggest, nastiest, hardest Hitting, and heaviest recoiling weapon you could

buy. It was designed for one simple Purpose... to knock an elephant flat on

is butt. It was really built as an exhibition piece! This cartridge is

known for breaking collarbones, arms, and shoulders of the shooter in a

rifle configuration!

Think about this, in the gun world they use what is termed as" recoil

Index" to kind of give prospective buyers an idea of what a gun kicks like.

A 30-06 gets a rating of a 1.0, which for many people is about the limit of

what they can shoot multiple rounds thru comfortably. A 243 is rated at

like a .4; a .270 was like a ..8, etc. The .600 Nitro Express is rated at

a9.4... 9.4 times more punishing power than a 30-06.

Now watch the video.

[C5 Golfer]

here's the write up to go with that video.

Read the gun story before watching the video! This puts a new meaning

on"GET A GRIP"

NOW HERE IS YOUR GUN..............

For sure anyone who knows anything about guns will like the following.

The Pistol every home owner needs--60 Caliber. This video is basically a

"show an tell" for a custom built Thompson Encore (fancy version of the

Thompson Contender).

The Caliber .600 Nitro Express.

That's right... An elephant gun round in a handgun.

The story goes that the gun that built it is some kind of custom gun maker.

He built this as an exhibition piece. He takes it to the range with him

just to show it off, and the big guy that shot it (In the video) had been

bugging the builder to let him shoot it. Now think about this... Only until

fairly recently (early-mid '80's) the 600 Nitro Express was hands down the

biggest, nastiest, hardest Hitting, and heaviest recoiling weapon you could

buy. It was designed for one simple Purpose... to knock an elephant flat on

is butt. It was really built as an exhibition piece! This cartridge is

known for breaking collarbones, arms, and shoulders of the shooter in a

rifle configuration!

Think about this, in the gun world they use what is termed as" recoil

Index" to kind of give prospective buyers an idea of what a gun kicks like.

A 30-06 gets a rating of a 1.0, which for many people is about the limit of

what they can shoot multiple rounds thru comfortably. A 243 is rated at

like a .4; a .270 was like a ..8, etc. The .600 Nitro Express is rated at

a9.4... 9.4 times more punishing power than a 30-06.

Now watch the video.

Reminds me of the day I was at the range with my .375 H&H Ruger #1, a guy was there with his 460 Weatherby, actually 2 of them which he used in Alaska for brown bear. We switched guns after much discussion and indecision by me due to the power of the 460. Makes my little 375 look like a pea shooter. Needless to say – I had to shoot the 460 two times because I could not believe anything could kick that hard. I do not think I hit the target – Probably do not have to tell you why. I'll keep my 375.

[BobD]

Bob D, What gun law would make it safe to hang that sign? Can you describe this law or what would be writen?

A NO gun law. I realise that isn't practical.

I wasn't talking about concealed carry permits, rather a licence to own a gun and the registration of guns.

I know what the standard answers to this idea are, but the reason the bad guys have guns is the lack of gun control laws and "enforcement". Licencing would make the people who want guns and the current gun laws, pay for the enforcement (kind of republican "you want it, you pay for it" approach).

BobD

[C5 Golfer]

A NO gun law. I realise that isn't practical.

I wasn't talking about concealed carry permits, rather a licence to own a gun and the registration of guns.

BobD

Ok -- now we are getting somewhere. Enforcement is the key to the solution. In WA State -- http://crime.about.com/b/a/143373.htm

I would support a license to prove competency with a firearm, similar to a driver’s license or a motorcycle license. I would not and do not support gun registration. What is to be served by registering a gun – to tax it? That is the only reason you register an automobile- to tax it. Other than that what is served if you have a license to operate it.