How sad - VT College loss of life

[roscoe]

I'd assume that would depend ...

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by rwcow
removed language

[Dr D]

A mugger by definition is armed or presents the appearance of being so.

Nobody is walking up to me and demanding my wallet that isn't armed. I think laughing at him would do the trick in that scenario:lol:

[skategoat]

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Ghandi did carry a personal weapon because, after all, doing so would, in no way, compromise his stand against violence.

I guess you guys are okay with North Korea's nuclear weapons program because, after all, the nukes are for personal protection only. Hell, since the U.S. owns nukes, North Korea, Iran and even Iraq's mythical WMD's are entirely justifiable. They are purely defensive and in way constitute violent intent.

Glad we cleared that up.

[Dan]

That's actually a very good question. Personally, I would probally throw down if I knew that I could win said fight. There's no real way of telling if the mugger (who is taking your wallet/valuables without remorse remember) will leave you alone if you give them what they want, besides the fact that for now they are mugging people-who knows what will be on their mind tomorrow-If I have my way with it, the only thing that will be on their mind tomorrow will be wondering how long the state will keep them locked up for. It also depends on what they're threatening me with- I'll respond to anything more than fists with my piece. If they're threatening me with their fists, then my knife will probally come out...but like Dr. D said, if they're feeling bulletproof, I'll remind them that they aren't.

So it sounds like the thinking is meeting force with equivalent or greater force. Presumably your mugger is thinking more or less along the same lines. Doesn't that calculus lead to one or both of you getting shot?

This sounds like the same thinking (albeit on a smaller scale) behind the MAD policy of nuclear proliferation. While we've admittedly passed through that era more-or-less unscathed (except for the random unsecured nuclear weapons that may or may not be drifting around/out of the former Soviet republics), it just didn't/doesn't seem like very good policy.

Getting back to our more human-level hypothetical scenario, it sounds to me as though an encounter that might otherwise have ended with your mugger scampering off with $20 and 3 maxed-out credit cards (in my case) is actually more likely to end in bloodshed because both parties are armed.

You know, I'm just saying.

I'm very comfortable with firearms for hunting, killing varmints on the farm, target practice, or you know, to protect the rights of citizens against oppressive governments. I have a hard time swallowing the idea that a populace with a higher percentage of people carrying as a general rule is one with fewer gun deaths.

But what do I know? Time out to read the book that Dr. D recommended - I'll be back to this thread in a week or two. :)

[C5 Golfer]

So it sounds like the thinking is meeting force with equivalent or greater force. Presumably your mugger is thinking more or less along the same lines. Doesn't that calculus lead to one or both of you getting shot?

with your mugger scampering off with $20 and 3 maxed-out credit cards (in my case) is actually more likely to end in bloodshed because both parties are armed.

:)

Thought about this -- I would most likely let the mugger have what ever he asks if I am out say with family or girlfriend, if by myself I may attempt to stop the bad guy. Depends if a point in time offers me an high percentage advantage to overpower him, as far as pulling out a gun I would not. I have a CWP for many years but have never carried - usually think it may bring more trouble with which I am willing to gamble. I have no experience in a situation like this as most of you - and most likely the mugger has experience and if that is the case he will win the fight. Sad thing is -- if you do engage - he has to be taken out otherwise he will be back to get you or your family when he does his 15 days.

[roscoe]

C5 Golfer said:

I have no experience in a situation like this as most of you - and most likely the mugger has experience and if that is the case he will win the fight.

I think this applies to most people on the forum, unless you're all secret kung-fu masters

Edited May 11, 2017 by rwcow
removed language

[Dan]

also, I'm interested, why do those of you who carry guns/knives feel it necessary (note- this is different than why did you chose to exercise your right)? I'm not criticizing, jw, cuz i've never felt the need and ever really thought about seriously buying one to bring with me to places

though asking people if they "feel lucky, punk" always has had a certain appeal

[my bad if you've already covered this in a page I missed!]

Not carrying now, but seriously considered it after a bike ride last summer during which a semi driver who was waiting to pull out said to my riding buddy "I hope your life insurance is paid up."

How nice would it be to give him a look at your holster and say "I hope that yours is too."

Unfortunately, it's just not practical to shoot every motorist that likes to screw with cyclists - Mt. Hood Meadows might have to scale back operations if Portland's population was reduced by half. :rolleyes:

[Derf]

Not carrying now, but seriously considered it after a bike ride last summer during which a semi driver who was waiting to pull out said to my riding buddy "I hope your life insurance is paid up."

How nice would it be to give him a look at your holster and say "I hope that yours is too."

Unfortunately, it's just not practical to shoot every motorist that likes to screw with cyclists - Mt. Hood Meadows might have to scale back operations if Portland's population was reduced by half. :rolleyes:

As a cyclist, I say don't argue with a truck driver. It's like what has been said in other threads (just replace truck driver with the other mentionned person type and it's the same).

On a cycling note, you would be willing to carry the weight of a gun when weight is a big factor when cycling? Where would you hide it? I hope you're not wearing spandex...

As for motorists, looking scary often does the trick for me (goatee, half shaven beard, no smile, dark glasses, riding agressively). I also have bar ends on my bike for protection (this is a bike with straight handlebars). Motorists don't care about injuring or killing a cyclist, but they care a lot about their paintjob, so they don't want any scatches on it. Bar ends scratch the paint off a door (I have done it to very bad motorists), and in the worst case, can tear off a mirror (happened once). Did I mention I used to be a bike messenger...

Pardon my misunderstanding of some American expressions, but what does "throw down" mean is this case? Throw what down?

[roscoe]

originally it comes from back in the old days where somebody would take off their glove and "throw [it] down" to the ground, to signal they wanted to duel.

nowadays its basically just someone's willingness to fight

[Neuffy]

The primary reason I do not cycle very much in my city is the drivers. Aie.

I actually know a few people who have steel bars on their bicycles, for that very reason. Then, I know one guy who's just insane. He doesn't get passed by cars.

Realistically, I think that weapons just escalate situations, so instead of people getting beaten up a bit, or punched out, we end up with gunshot wounds and deaths. Here, there has been a rather large surge in murders recently, due to people carrying knives and guns. Sure, levels of altercation may have gone up, but altercations alone tend not to result in death, when weapons are not involved. The problem's also that the economy's so brutally hot right now, we have large numbers of single males coming in to town with large amounts of money, not a whole lot of time to blow it, and fairly machismo attitudes.

On the duelling note, anybody think we should bring back duelling?

[Justin A.]

Not carrying now, but seriously considered it after a bike ride last summer during which a semi driver who was waiting to pull out said to my riding buddy "I hope your life insurance is paid up."

How nice would it be to give him a look at your holster and say "I hope that yours is too."

Unfortunately, it's just not practical to shoot every motorist that likes to screw with cyclists - Mt. Hood Meadows might have to scale back operations if Portland's population was reduced by half. :rolleyes:

I've got an expandable baton for cycling. Lets all face it, a guy in spandex on a bike doesn't look very threatening, especially with the clunky stiff-soled shoes that make you walk oh-so-gracefully. Had one encounter with a guy who wanted to fight me, and managed to scare him off by picking up my bike like I was going to hit him with hit, but I'd rather not have to hit someone with my beloved bike, I'd rather pull the expando out of my jersey pocket and flick it open...I think that it has a much more profound effect than swinging a bike in slippery shoes.

also, I'm interested, why do those of you who carry guns/knives feel it necessary (note- this is different than why did you chose to exercise your right)? I'm not criticizing, jw, cuz i've never felt the need and ever really thought about seriously buying one to bring with me to places

A few reasons:

1) Wildlife at night- we have a very large population of coyotes/coy-dogs in the area where I live, and the wolves are starting to come back (YAY!... :o ) when I'm out walking the dog at night, and I hear coordinated rustling in the woods on either side of the street and my dog stops and goes into defensive mode, I like to have something a bit more than my fists-o-fury to fend off the critters should they decide that we look like a good meal.

2) Crazy *******s- I've had more than one person follow me into a parking lot wanting to fight me (like...who yelled "pull over, **** you, I'm going to punch you in the ****ing face!!!" kinda thing), who was warded off by either me or my girlfriend waving something around that he didn't recognize. Last time the object was an empty plastic soda bottle being waved by my girlfriend, but what if the looney didn't turn tail and run?

3) Other crazy *******s- on my birthday last year, two guys follwed me and my girlfriend into a store. It was late- probally around 9:15 or so, and they were wearing sunglasses ( ) and spooking around the store behind us. I noticed that one of them was watching me at the cash register, then they both proceeded to scramble out the door before I finished checking out. I "forgot" to get something and stayed in the store for another 10 minutes or so shopping around. The next day is when I started carrying a knife.

4) Stories like this: http://www.wmur.com/news/11970103/detail.html

And many many more reasons that I remember everytime I feel mortally threatened.

[Neuffy]

It really seems to be based upon the perception of the world as a dangerous place or not; to feel threatened.

I don't. If I did, I probably would want a gun. But except for one part of town that I avoid (mostly) after dark, I don't feel threatened or vulnerable as an unarmed person. Then again, I'd feel a lot more vulnerable if I was significantly smaller, or female. So...I guess it varies.

Then again...it may be more dangerous where you are than where I am...although I do live in the murder capital of Canada, virtually all of that is either drug-based, gang-based (with surprisingly little collateral damage, other than family) or club-based (and I don't go clubbing).

[skategoat]

You guys crack me up with your what-if scenarios. Killer coyotes, lurking murderers, an armed mugger on every corner. What I notice are goofy labs, laughing kids and the odd homeless guy begging for change. I must live in Mayberry RFD.

[roscoe]

haha I think I'm from the same part of town.

My dad was hit while riding his bike by a van, we dont think it was intentional however. it was some old guy, supposedly looking at deer on the other side of hte road. either way, resulted in 5 cracked rips, broken femur, a bunch of compressed vertebrae, dislocated shoulder, broken collarbone, broken ankle, a 2 foot gash on his left arm, and a serious case of road rash.

In his case, there was nothing he could do, as the driver hit him from behind/the side with no warning.

on a complete side note - Justin - I've also been a follower of the reintroduction of the wolf (mainly paying attention to the yellowstone populations), but have been reading about the attempts to delist them from the endangered/threatened species acts, and how it will allow the populations to be "trimmed" by 1/2, due to population control methods used by the government. Personally, I think taking them off the list now without proper precautions would pretty much undo all of the progress they've worked to hard for in the past few decades...

[Dr D]

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Ghandi did carry a personal weapon because, after all, doing so would, in no way, compromise his stand against violence.

I guess you guys are okay with North Korea's nuclear weapons program because, after all, the nukes are for personal protection only. Hell, since the U.S. owns nukes, North Korea, Iran and even Iraq's mythical WMD's are entirely justifiable. They are purely defensive and in way constitute violent intent.

Glad we cleared that up.

Well since the countries you mentioned are the world equivelant of a mugger or Rapist I think its safe to say that we are as justified keeping ours and removing theirs as we are in taking away the rights of felons to own guns:smashfrea

The use of military force is justified even more, IMHO , for human rights violations and genocide than for stockpiling WMD and then shipping them into Syria before the UN can locate them.

[Dr D]

I think this applies to most people on the forum, unless you're all secret kung-fu masters or are all packing gats.

me personally? I'd probably let the guy take my empty wallet and bank card - I think I'd be winning in that situation, I've got a lot more of life to live, and for him, its only a matter of time 'til he gets caught

also, I'm interested, why do those of you who carry guns/knives feel it necessary (note- this is different than why did you chose to exercise your right)? I'm not criticizing, jw, cuz i've never felt the need and ever really thought about seriously buying one to bring with me to places

though asking people if they "feel lucky, punk" always has had a certain appeal

[my bad if you've already covered this in a page I missed!]

I don't carry most of the time. I choose to carry when traveling and when I am going into areas with a known risk or areas that I am unfamiliar with. In MT most of my carrying is in the woods and the danger is large predators other than man.

[Justin A.]

on a complete side note - Justin - I've also been a follower of the reintroduction of the wolf (mainly paying attention to the yellowstone populations), but have been reading about the attempts to delist them from the endangered/threatened species acts, and how it will allow the populations to be "trimmed" by 1/2, due to population control methods used by the government. Personally, I think taking them off the list now without proper precautions would pretty much undo all of the progress they've worked to hard for in the past few decades...

I think that removing them from the endangered species list is pretty stupid....afterall, it was human hunting that put them there in the first place. The wanting to remove them from the list is purely political, there are more and more wolves eating livestock out west, and farmers are complaining about it instead of you know, like...putting up a fence or getting some herd dogs . The wolf packs haven't returned to everyplace that they were, therefore I don't think that there is any logical reason to remove them.

You guys crack me up with your what-if scenarios. Killer coyotes, lurking murderers, an armed mugger on every corner. What I notice are goofy labs, laughing kids and the odd homeless guy begging for change. I must live in Mayberry RFD.

Yes, Killer Coyotes. My neighbor lost his dogs to them last spring, and my dog sure as hell isn't going to be next.

Lurking murderers- it can happen anywhere-but not in my house, I have an attack beaver.

Nobody is saying that the armed muggers are on every corner, but whichever corner I'm on and they're on, I'm going to concern myself with it.

I notice the goofy labs, laughing kids (actually not so much...I haven't seen many kids at all since I moved to ottawa ), and plenty of odd homeless folk begging for change. I also notice that despite the "bully breed" ban, there sure are plenty of folk walking them around and...OH MY GOD they aren't biting anyone-who'da thought.

This thread has gone so far off to the side....

[Dr D]

on a complete side note - Justin - I've also been a follower of the reintroduction of the wolf (mainly paying attention to the yellowstone populations), but have been reading about the attempts to delist them from the endangered/threatened species acts, and how it will allow the populations to be "trimmed" by 1/2, due to population control methods used by the government. Personally, I think taking them off the list now without proper precautions would pretty much undo all of the progress they've worked to hard for in the past few decades...

Wolves are also becoming a threat here. two female friends of mine were walking home at dusk the other night. This is 8 miles off of the highway in the mtns. They were shadowed for over a mile by a pair of wolves. They didn't attack but the possibility is there and the girls carry a gun now on such walks. They would only shoot if attacked of course but the ability to make that choice is comforting.

As for undoing the progress made??? They are so prolific here that the elk and deer populations are plummeting.

[Dr D]

and farmers are complaining about it instead of you know, like...putting up a fence or getting some herd dogs . ..

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OMG

I don't even know where to start on that one?!?

suffice it to say that fences and :lol: herd dogs :lol: :lol: are not a viable option.

they have fences. Wolves will kill and eat lesser predators like coyotes and yes even the loyal Herd dog.

well you got me to snort I was laughing so hard. dont' believe everything you read in the paper. they don't live on a diet of field mice either even though there is a movie to prove the theory.:lol: there are areas here where the wolves have killed all the elk under the age of 2 years. they will be putting other creatures on the endangered list before long. The book says they only kill old bulls but that wouldn't account for the decimation of the entire herd that we are seeing "out West"

[skategoat]

Well since the countries you mentioned are the world equivelant of a mugger or Rapist I think its safe to say that we are as justified keeping ours and removing theirs as we are in taking away the rights of felons to own guns:smashfrea

Says who? George W. Bush and Dick Cheney? Because they don't agree with their ideology? What incredible arrogance. And you wonder why there is so much worldwide hostility towards Americans?

Trivia question #1: What is the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons?

Trivia question #2: What is the only country in the world convicted of state terrorism by the International Court of Justice?

The use of military force is justified even more, IMHO , for human rights violations and genocide than for stockpiling WMD and then shipping them into Syria before the UN can locate them.

So let me ask you, where was this righteous use of military force when millions were being slaughtered in Rwanda? How come the World Police aren't dropping into Darfur right now? Oh, maybe because there is no American political or economic interest in either of those countries? Could that be the reason?

And you're telling me that U.S. reconnaissance can spot a lone man walking along the side of the road and direct a bomb at him (ie. pink-mist him) but it can't spot tonnes of chemical weapons being shipped to Syria?

[skategoat]

Justin:

You should arm your dog. Wasn't there a thread about that earlier? I personally am glad that coyotes are making themselves at home in urban ravines. It's controlling our raccoon infestation and stray cat problem. On my in-law's farm, there are virtually no groundhogs left since the coyotes showed up. Nice to see nature taking its course and correcting some of the human caused inbalances. While it would be a shame for someone to lose a pet, aren't they supposed to be leashed anyways?

HK

This thread has gone so far off to the side....

Agreed.

[Justin A.]

You should arm your dog. Wasn't there a thread about that earlier? I personally am glad that coyotes are making themselves at home in urban ravines. It's controlling our raccoon infestation and stray cat problem. On my in-law's farm, there are virtually no groundhogs left since the coyotes showed up. Nice to see nature taking its course and correcting some of the human caused inbalances. While it would be a shame for someone to lose a pet, aren't they supposed to be leashed anyways?

There was a thread about it earlier, and the dogs were leashed. I don't live in urban ravines (well...I do now and it sucks, but I don't consider myself to "live" here), I live pretty well out in the boonies...kinda. It's a heavily forested area. The coyotes were driven out when the developers came in and now they're starting to come back. I'd arm my dog, but he doesn't have thumbs.

OMG

I don't even know where to start on that one?!?

suffice it to say that fences and herd dogs are not a viable option.

they have fences. Wolves will kill and eat lesser predators like coyotes and yes even the loyal Herd dog.

well you got me to snort I was laughing so hard. dont' believe everything you read in the paper. they don't live on a diet of field mice either even though there is a movie to prove the theory. there are areas here where the wolves have killed all the elk under the age of 2 years. they will be putting other creatures on the endangered list before long. The book says they only kill old bulls but that wouldn't account for the decimation of the entire herd that we are seeing "out West"

Glad I made your day. All I'm saying is that perhaps people should be taking stronger measures to protect their property than they are. I have no problem with shooting pretty much anything on your own property if it's causing damage, I'm saying that I believe it would be foolish to declare open season on wolves to reduce the pack size. I understand that they're highly intelligent (smarter than most people I know) animals that can climb fences, find ways around trenches, and whatnot, but I don't think that a second extermination is the solution. Maybe relocating them (packs as a whole) to areas where the species once was but is no more due to overhunting? Once they're settled back in to their full range, then I think that hunting of them should be allowed, and I won't have a problem with it at all.

[Dr D]

Says who? George W. Bush and Dick Cheney? Because they don't agree with their ideology? What incredible arrogance. And you wonder why there is so much worldwide hostility towards Americans?

Trivia question #1: What is the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons?

Trivia question #2: What is the only country in the world convicted of state terrorism by the International Court of Justice?

So let me ask you, where was this righteous use of military force when millions were being slaughtered in Rwanda? How come the World Police aren't dropping into Darfur right now? Oh, maybe because there is no American political or economic interest in either of those countries? Could that be the reason?

And you're telling me that U.S. reconnaissance can spot a lone man walking along the side of the road and direct a bomb at him (ie. pink-mist him) but it can't spot tonnes of chemical weapons being shipped to Syria?

I am glad you live in Canada where everything is so crystal clear.:rolleyes:

It is my strong personal belief that we should take our troops and our money and trade and go home. Build a wall on the north end and the south plant our unemployed troops on the wall and let the rest of the world sort it out among themselves. Just think no more foreign aid money no more economic booms from american troops and bases no more free reign to ruin the american economy with cheap slave labor produced goods. No more open arms reception to the world's poor tired and wretched teeming for liberty. (they can go to Canada) Sounds good to me. Maybe the world would have less to Bitch about then but somehow I doubt it:freak3:

As for Darfur and Rwanda I don't see The UN rushing in to do anything about it. I would heartily support intervention in either place. The attrocities occurring there trouble me. The UN refuses to intervene or to even discuss it near as I can tell.

disagree with their ideology? I would hope so. There ideology requires them to force all other people on the planet to worship and live as they do or to KILL them as an alternative. I would have to say I disagree with their ideology. Naturally I will have to qualify this statement so no one misunderstands I don't mean muslims in general or in particular those identified as moderates and that don't feel obligated to at least half of the quaran.

I guess in the end I am what I am and you are what you are. No point beating each other up over it. :) Self-loathing is a horrible place for a person or a nation to live. Perfection does not exist so become comfortable with the best you are personally capable of:biggthump

[Dr D]

Glad I made your day. All I'm saying is that perhaps people should be taking stronger measures to protect their property than they are. I have no problem with shooting pretty much anything on your own property if it's causing damage, I'm saying that I believe it would be foolish to declare open season on wolves to reduce the pack size. I understand that they're highly intelligent (smarter than most people I know) animals that can climb fences, find ways around trenches, and whatnot, but I don't think that a second extermination is the solution. Maybe relocating them (packs as a whole) to areas where the species once was but is no more due to overhunting? Once they're settled back in to their full range, then I think that hunting of them should be allowed, and I won't have a problem with it at all.

The only proponent of large decreases I am aware of is the Governor of IDaho. he is responsible for the 1/2 figure. I personally believe it was a political stunt that he has since retracted or moderated. Landowners just want to be able to protect their property without reprisal. Currently it is legal to kill a wolf if it is killing livestock BUT...... irregardless of proof witnesses etc. It is near impossible to get the governing agencies to admit that wolves are responsible and landowners have been prosecuted for taking steps to protect their livestock. So its a case of legal but unheard of. Taking them off of the endangered list puts the various states in charge of management. Local control would reduce tension on landowners and any hunting seasons would be limited and highly controled much as mtn lions are handled currently. We have to many of those to so in the long run the only change would be farmer john can shoot when he sees one killing a cow without fear of losing his freedom or his farm.

[C5 Golfer]

I've got an expandable baton for cycling. Lets all face it, a guy in spandex on a bike doesn't look very threatening, especially with the clunky stiff-soled shoes that make you walk oh-so-gracefully. Had one encounter with a guy who wanted to fight me, and managed to scare him off by picking up my bike like I was going to hit him with hit, but I'd rather not have to hit someone with my beloved bike, I'd rather pull the expando out of my jersey pocket and flick it open...I think that it has a much more profound effect than swinging a bike in slippery shoes.

2) Crazy *******s- I've had more than one person follow me into a parking lot wanting to fight me (like...who yelled "pull over, **** you, I'm going to punch you in the ****ing face!!!" kinda thing), who was warded off by either me or my girlfriend waving something around that he didn't recognize. Last time the object was an empty plastic soda bottle being waved by my girlfriend, but what if the looney didn't turn tail and run?

3) Other crazy *******s- on my birthday last year, two guys follwed me and my girlfriend into a store. It was late- probally around 9:15 or so, and they were wearing sunglasses ( ) and spooking around the store behind us. I noticed that one of them was watching me at the cash register, then they both proceeded to scramble out the door before I finished checking out. I "forgot" to get something and stayed in the store for another 10 minutes or so shopping around. The next day is when I started carrying a knife.

Lets see to recap-- Justin A carries a knife, an expandable baton and a gun.

If Jim Croce were a carver he'd say the following in this post:

And they say you don't tug on Superman's cape

You don't spit into the wind

You don't pull the mask off an 'ole Lone Ranger

And you don't mess around with Justin A