Knees together or apart?

[Blackbird]

It is actually this kind of attitude that makes people ride how they want, not what's "right"........

I gotta agree, taking a dig at the gear was pretty lame......

I always thought that a place like this would be a great way to take in all that is Alpine...

Didn't like the digs at peoples gear either...

And without being a tosser... try Australia where Alpine gear hasn't been on the market since 2000.. Any of it... Hell I had to get my two decks from travelling friends and Ebay.

I do understand where you're coming from Bordy... but beginners read this stuff and if they fear getting flamed they will stay away.

I think whatever makes you happy, knees together.. knees apart... rock what feels right for you.

[Maciek]

JJFluff,

Short answer to the question: it depends what you trying to achieve :D

[trailertrash]

i put loctite on my knees to hold them together, is that bad?

[carverboy]

Wow,

I have so gotten a headache from this thread! But like a train wreak, I just can't seem to not look. I would love to go free riding with Bordy sometime and bask in the glory of his all powerful technique. To bad I only own a bunch of washed up inferior race boards. Sarcasm aside, seriously Im pretty sure (17 years of hard boot'n) that bringing your knees together will not ruin your turn's or otherwise impair your day on the snow. If it does ,It may be you, not your technique, that sucks.

[Blue Bird]

I talk with squirrels,

[Galen]

I talk with squirrels,

Knee's together, I hope. You know how they are about nuts.

[Blue Bird]

Knee's together, I hope. You know how they are about nuts.

they do like nuts, they encourage knees apart

[JJFluff]

Sorry for passing on bad advise bordy.

Are you going to be at the SES this year? I can prove to you that every last once of power is being squeezed out of my board.

Then I'll let you pick out the next board and bindings I use. And, I'll do the same. The board doesn't matter much with me. I can use them all.

If I bought a donek or prior this year, I wouldn't be able to afford to go out to aspen.

[JJFluff]

Billy has many valid points regarding gear. Current trends in board manufacturing make for rocking good rides, something that couldn't be done in the 90's. If you were to compare a 2006 prior to a mid 90's board, they ride very differently. Heck, if you got on one of the metal priors and tried to ride with your knees together you'd get thrown left and right.

Plus, what does riding with your knees together accomplish? Good carving? Perhaps on older equipment, but there happens to be a bit more to the sport than just carving, and with knees together, you aren't going to be able to make it in trees, steeps, or anywhere else on the mountain but groomers.

I ride everything on the mountain with the same stance, actually. -Trees, steeps,or anywhere else on the mountain.

[Blackbird]

Wow,

I have so gotten a headache from this thread! But like a train wreak, I just can't seem to not look. I would love to go free riding with Bordy sometime and bask in the glory of his all powerful technique. To bad I only own a bunch of washed up inferior race boards. Sarcasm aside, seriously Im pretty sure (17 years of hard boot'n) that bringing your knees together will not ruin your turn's or otherwise impair your day on the snow. If it does ,It may be you, not your technique, that sucks.

Thanks carverboy,

I feel better now.......Washed up raceboard owners of the world unite!!!

[philfell]

To answer the question in the title. Knees equally driving into the turn.

I think your position is weak. But if you feel it's good than stick with it.

[bobdea]

while you're at it put your binding 16 inches apart and ride the checker pig or safari like you did in '92

If you have fun fine but when you want to step up to the next level read Jack's article from nine years ago

what Bordy was saying is pretty much the same thing that had to be beat out of skiers when skis got sidecut and a sane flex profile

I still see people skiing like they never got rid of their 200cm straight skis, they are missing the potential of their modern gear.

aas for you that say gear makes no difference but yet you ride a coiler or something go out and get one of those $75 PJs, some rear entry ski boots and maybe some fritschi plates and live life to the fullest

[timinor]

Philfell said,

To answer the question in the title. Knees equally driving into the turn.

After 72 posts, this has a ring of logic and truth to it.

[Bordy]

Sorry for passing on bad advise bordy.

Are you going to be at the SES this year? I can prove to you that every last once of power is being squeezed out of my board.

Then I'll let you pick out the next board and bindings I use. And, I'll do the same. The board doesn't matter much with me. I can use them all.

If I bought a donek or prior this year, I wouldn't be able to afford to go out to aspen.

Dude. First off I really am not harsing on you, just your Knees together thread.

If you want to "show me at SES" thats cool lots off folks show up to SES with a Bordy issue, They all shake my hand and say thanks when they leave.

I am sure you are getting every once of power out of the boards you are riding now thats why I brought up your gear it is powerless by todays standards. Be honest whats your idea of a GS shape? Or a SG shape. If you say I am out cruising on my big board what shapes and lengths do you ride??

Let me ask you this little tiny question and then tell me how you knees together Idea is so strong.

What happens when you have you knees together in the middle of the turn and hit a bump? How do you absorb the shock? How do you maintain balance with a tripod that has a stop point. I have had both of my knees on each side of my head tring to hang on for dear life so many times..... You?

Also to all the folks who think my statements and comments would not fly on the hill are just reading my input wrong of have no idea where I am coming from. There is no harm in Bringing up gear when it clearly has something to do with the topic. I probably make less money then any of the posters over the age of 18 here. I choose to spend all of it on gear and riding so then I also choose to use that gear as referance while expressing my opinion based on my experance with it. Because I have a huge Quiver to choose from and ride different sticks all the time should only help add to the value of my input.

All of the washed up race board owners should unit then you should burn donate them all to Fin so he can hang them on a wall where they belong!!

Any time anyone says to you It just seems like alpine riding is not that big or why does burton not make gear for alpine riding. and you wonder why I know why!!!

Because many begginer/intermedate riders try old alpine gear which just blows the doors of soft boot gear and then just settle with that gear for decades because it still rides O-kay. However New gear rides so much better and they have no idea so they hoard all the factory prime 168s they can find on e-bay because they think that is the best board ever, and for only a hundred and fifty bucks a pop, only they buy three so now they dont have to ever worry about it again so they drop there 450 for a lifetime of boareds and get limited by their gear for the rest of their snowboarding days.

While brand new F2 speedsters get a year older siting on the rack at bomber, or hardbooter, unused and unsold. So the next year less stuff is ordered because no one understands how good the new boards are, mean while on the very site Fin is trying to use to help make money on alpine gear two guys sit and discuss what rides better a oxyagen from 95 or a burton from 96 then every newbie on the site runs to the classifeds to find these super rad sticks..

Its just bunk.

I know I am going to get a bunch af crap but every year I say the same thing. Most of the posters on this board are the reason Alpine snowboarding does not progress......

If you are out there Sharing the vibe and pimping new gear and technique to the masses then disreguard the next statement. How ever if you have ever told any rider they can get a sweet carving set up on e-bay for cheap then you are for sure part of the problem!!! I watch e-bay all the time and have only seen on or two sweet setups for sale ever. Any time you tell some one the 50 dollar pair of boots listed are great you are lying to them and slowing the progression of the sport!! There is no way anything older then a 2000 set up even comes close to new gear. All of the riders out there who think their setup should cost as little as possible are getting what they pay for. I am not saying that everyone should not try to get the best deal on gear they can, I am saying that old gear is not a deal, and you and your riding are getting short changed. I have never heard of a skiier complain about the cost of a new set of gear. But alpine riders think their board which sometime cost more to make then a pair of baddass skiis should be a bargain? I get complants all the time about the cost of a new pair of Indys, Then I walk into Sure foot and watch some dude drop 1000 on boots with out bitching. If you are having fun on your old gear more power to you. I bet you would have more fun on new gear.

I drag 50 or more of the newest badest boards, boots and binding out to the WTC every year and go to SES and ECES, I have seen first hand how riders react you can post up all the "ya butts" you would like but I dont live at your hill and see what you think is the current treand there, I base my opinion on my traveling and involvment with hardbooting at the world leavel which i am sure is a bit different then how things are going at Peak and Peak in PA. I just want the sport to grow is that so wrong.

also just because there is are Photos of me with my knees together( I have had some e-mailed to me)Finishing a turn and starting another doesnt mean thats how every turn is. There are hundreds of photos of me online all over the place does that mean everyone can be evaluated as so? If there is a photo of me standing up does it mean I stand up for every turn.

I drive both of my knees in the direction of travel and ride a 20 inch stance with a 30 inch inseam if my knees touch I am really out of balance or unweighting the board and tring to pinch the tail.

Mike T,

I little to straight with the frount leg which can cause bump or slide out and removes alot of weight from the edge under the frount foot. You want to be over the board a bit more and make the "angles" with your lower body. You are just a bit prone to geting off balance in that out stretch position, but still a great turn it sure looks like you are having fun and moving your mass well!!!

I of course want everyone to go out and ride, How they like I just cant watch new riders being tin into bad info on the board.

And of course gear matters, If your some one who thinks i am picking on the guys gear VS pointing out gear has alot to do with his opinion then you are mistaken.

[Bordy]

Wow,

I have so gotten a headache from this thread! But like a train wreak, I just can't seem to not look. I would love to go free riding with Bordy sometime and bask in the glory of his all powerful technique. To bad I only own a bunch of washed up inferior race boards. Sarcasm aside, seriously Im pretty sure (17 years of hard boot'n) that bringing your knees together will not ruin your turn's or otherwise impair your day on the snow. If it does ,It may be you, not your technique, that sucks.

Want to address you on your own. I think I use all Techniques and styles. I would of course love to and do make turn with anyone!!

I can't help but feel you are on of the guys who is holding the sport back

Perhaps its your obvious Sarcasm towards me that makes me giggle, but If you are riding old school gear (as you state) and have 17 years experance and you still think bringing you knees together will not ruin your turn or impair you day on snow it just proves how valid and informed your post is based on current gear and the technique need to turn it well.

Some one has to play bad cop and I never mind one bit if it helps the sport grow!!

[Bordy]

Nice. That form reminded me of something - now I remember - the Klingon Bird of Prey.

A question for Billy. Am I interpreting correctly - it looks like this caught you at the instant that you were beginning to swap edges. I'm guessing this mostly because it looks like you are just beginning to turn your head to the left.

Dave,

You are correct I am finishing that turn. And starting to unweight for the edge change. The dead give away is my board is crossing the fall line.

Heard it was a nice warm day in Amherst yesterday. I hope some snow is on the way!

[Bobby Buggs]

Well, can I get some of those Super Rad sticks :D

[JJFluff]

Hey Bordy, I really don't mind the criticism that you bring into the conversation. One thing is, its hard to question the effectiveness of the gear I'm riding if you have never seen me ride it.

Now granted, the techniques I ride with may be "older" techniques. But I have mastered them. When I hit bumps, I absorb them. Maybe its being atlhetic that allows me to ride such an inferior style so well, you know.

When I started this thread, I wasn't trying to tell people to ride the way I do. I have seen that most are riding with angulations, knees apart, and shoulders parrallel. Apparently these techniques came from some studies that have been done? So I'm sure they are very valid, or everybody wouldn't be riding with this style. It mirrors what is done in the race course, at the highest level. I'm not suggesting or impling its wrong. I would get laughed off this board so fast if I were to question any of that. I was just curious what was behind the painful looking body positioning that everyone loves to ride.

I am definately going to put more time this upcoming week into working on these techniques on the snow. Side note- in a blizzard warning as I type here in Milwaukee.

When I am riding. I don't push my knees together so I look pretty. My method behind it, is to place and push pressure forward into the turn. I guess it doesn't pay to try to explain, because here, it's just wrong. But, It will be great to see everyone in Februrary, and get to ride and work on these things together. I will bring my crap gear, and show you that it isn't that crappy after all.

----The tone of this message is not a mean, dispirited one. Just so nobody thinks I'm trying to be an arrogant a-hole.

[Bordy]

Hey Bordy, I really don't mind the criticism that you bring into the conversation. One thing is, its hard to question the effectiveness of the gear I'm riding if you have never seen me ride it.

How or why would me watching you ride the gear change the way the gear rides? I have ridden the gear I know how it rides. And I know how effective it isn't. If I ride that stuff with the correst input it just folds in half and slides sideways in a big v shape hinged right in the middle. How is that on par with current gear or how could you ride it on the same level.

The true story is you using your technigue to make your gear work, Great! I hope you are having a good time. But your opening thread seems to read alot different then that! If you post up like that you should expect and be pleased to get responses.

If i dissagree I have every right to say so. I could really throw down and tear every thing you have said apart, But I understand there are various levels of input and knowledge on the board. Your input was great but I dont agree based on my experance. I could have kept it low key like Phil Fell or I could expand a little I choose to expand. I beleive my snowboarding background is pretty up to date so I have no problem sharing my ideas.

Again I have to ask why is it so important that I see you ride your gear?? I have seen the best riders in the world ride all types of gear for over 2 decades, plus I have ridden the same gear you are, what is it that I am Missing????

I under stand the input you are making and I know there are much more effective ways to make the same input thats all. You can skin a cat any way you want the end result is still a skined cat. I would rather do it with a sharp knife, Of course you can do it with you bare hands also, what ever you like. One is more effective and effichant. the other works also.

Like i said I am all about the ride how you like idea. Just be ready for responses. Every time I write anything it gets a response. I still keep posting...

[MUD]

Hey Billy,

I agree 100%, thanks for clearing it up........ :D

I LOVE my Donek, but it sounds like I need to try one of the Prior Metals:eplus2:.

[JJFluff]

the fact is bordy, I have ridden some of the gear you speak of. And it works well too. But It doesn't effect how well I ride. You haven't seen me ride, so you can't see how effective riding a board with proper weighting and unweighting can effect the ride. You seem to be so hung up on yourself, it is skewing your views towards anyone else. You seem to be making up for something. Like when a guy buys a fancy sportscar.

Unfortunately, if you don't know how to drive, it doesn't matter how great your ride supposely is. So I guess keep buying all that great gear of yours to help your riding. Then, try to strong arm everybody who has a disagreement, or difference in opinion and try to force it down there throats by typing strong worded responses on the internet. Everybody can learn from different experiences, even if they aren't the ones you dream up. I wouldn't ask these types of questions if it wasn't out of curiousity, and to try to understand more about the sport. It's that open mindedness in life that helps you gain the most knowledge. I have ridden using every technique out there. I even went to your website to watch how "good riders snowboard". And I think even the mighty poster Bordy, has some things to work on and be open minded about.

I'm sure growing up in the sport out here in the midwest has a lot to do with the styles and techniques I have picked up. I have been riding hardboots for thirteen years. I certainly don't ride the same now as I did ten years ago. Could it be possible that there is more than one way, or that maybe, just maybe, something has been missed along the way.

[Jack M]

1 - I'm *pretty sure* I saw JJ riding at the 05 SES, based on his avatar, the pictures he posted here, his technique, and his equipment. Whoever it was, he was ripping. I was impressed. Very clean, very graceful, very playful. I was like, man, look at that guy make that old school technique work! However the problem is that on those conditions my grandmother could rock on a Hot Logical.

2 - I know how Bordy comes off in these threads, and I know what people might be thinking of him right now. I also have had the privilege of riding with him and getting to know him. Let me put all concerns to rest - he is the real deal, he walks the walk, and he is a hell of a good guy. He is a true master. When he talks technique or technology, I have the good sense to shut up and listen. It would behoove anybody else here to do the same.

[Bordy]

the fact is bordy, I have ridden some of the gear you speak of. And it works well too. But It doesn't effect how well I ride. You haven't seen me ride, so you can't see how effective riding a board with proper weighting and unweighting can effect the ride. You seem to be so hung up on yourself, it is skewing your views towards anyone else. You seem to be making up for something. Like when a guy buys a fancy sportscar.

Unfortunately, if you don't know how to drive, it doesn't matter how great your ride supposely is. So I guess keep buying all that great gear of yours to help your riding. Then, try to strong arm everybody who has a disagreement, or difference in opinion and try to force it down there throats by typing strong worded responses on the internet. Everybody can learn from different experiences, even if they aren't the ones you dream up. I wouldn't ask these types of questions if it wasn't out of curiousity, and to try to understand more about the sport. It's that open mindedness in life that helps you gain the most knowledge. I have ridden using every technique out there. I even went to your website to watch how "good riders snowboard". And I think even the mighty poster Bordy, has some things to work on and be open minded about.

I'm sure growing up in the sport out here in the midwest has a lot to do with the styles and techniques I have picked up. I have been riding hardboots for thirteen years. I certainly don't ride the same now as I did ten years ago. Could it be possible that there is more than one way, or that maybe, just maybe, something has been missed along the way.

Now your just being a kook! Attacking me personally!! Even tring to guess who I am as a person. So uncool.. Just because you think you know from a video on hardbooter....

Wow am I glad I took the time to make some thing for the hardbooting community when It only gets me shot down by the guy who pimps riding with his knees together. Every year I get belittled by some kook like you online but as soon as we are on snow every thing changes. Thats cools, Your probably correct, Al that gear I own in a demo fleet to lone out to other riders so they can enjoy the sport is probably to make up for my lack of skill, talent etc. And all the time and money I spent traveling and racing with the best riders around was just a waist of time, But the one thing I learned for sure is what type of rider I am at the world level, And i get the privalage to speak fron that experance!!!!!

I think when you bring your Style to SES maybe then I'll have a chance to speak with you and learn more about all you bring to the table. How ever now, I will do it with a little less respect for you after the previous thread.

Now I under stand right where you are coming from . And I am sure I wont be hunting you down to make make turns at SES.

But be carful of what you say or how personal you get I will be at SES, most off the time I am very happy but if I reread your last post right before I won't be.

Also I really don't beleave you have riden modern gear or have any idea about modern technique or you would not have to go and work on it like you said in previous post.

You ride ultra primes and thats O-kay dude, I would not have any fun on that flimsy noodle. Can you tell me what the differance between a Kessler, or Tomahawk, and a ultra prime is. Or as a matter of fact any board used under any current alpine racer feet compared to your ultra Prime?????

If you are so well Versed in gear and technique i would love some comparision notes??? I really like how my Kessler handles ruts in a PGS course it really as a low vibration rate plus because of the taper it tracks so well when I change to the new edge up hill and load it I can really relax as the board finds and the crosses the fall line and then I can let it drift to the pin and through the ruts unweighted.

How does the Ultra prime reacte in the same situation?

Also last year I was Dueling Tyler Jewell in SL and found my self really working the nose of the board to keep up. Although I had him through the first few gates he really took off after the pitch. Do you think an Ultra Prime would have been a better choice then the World cup race stock Bozzeto F2 SL stick I was riding? Would you knees together "technique have helped Me"??????

I really think you just feel like some one stepped on your dick and it hurts alittle. :(

Problem is I really have the background to step on it and you just dont know. Whens the last time you got to race a fast guy? I know where I really rank. I know what lots of differnet gear really rides like, I am responding to your thread based on that experance.

Your just being personal now. And you knees together technique is been proven weak and you cant deal.... But heck you can really "power up the nose". So good for you I think I have been very nice about riding what you like how you like. But don't arguee snowboarding with a real snowboarder it just makes you looks bad...

PS thanks Jack that was nice of you!!!

PPS got to add this because it just was so funny, My wife woke up as I was banging away next to her in bed. See would just like to say If jjFluff was refering to the size of my gear with the sports car comment. I am doing just fine.

Also she would like you to know she loves her ultra prime but won't let me ride it cuz she doesn't want it to break. But she prefers the new Donek pilots with her light weight.......

[JJFluff]

Bordy, I'm not trying to attack you personally. That was the first post I left with any negative vibe. I 'm sure you are aware of the way you come off as when you are posting. I'm sure your a great guy, and fun to ride with. It's easier to argue about topics face to face, that way everything isn't blown out of porportion. I was smiling to myself while writing that post. You always come back so strong, telling everybody how wrong they are, in one way or the other. If we read between the lines of your posts, it seems very much like personal attacks as well. Of course I can't speak for anyone other than myself. I guess I was misinterpreting you as well. But many do, if you have noticed. I, like you, take a lot of pride in my riding as well as the sport that I think about year round. I apologize for the "making up for something" comment. I certainly do not try to steer the sport in the wrong direction. I try to be a good ambassador to the sport, out here in Wisconsin. You come off so strong sometimes, you sound like an a-hole. But admit it, you try to get a rise out of people.

I guess I am just too sensitive.

[BlueB]

But be carful of what you say or how personal you get I will be at SES, most off the time I am very happy but if I reread your last post right before I won't be.

Now this is bully... Are you guys bringing the boxing gloves to SES, too?

JJ was a bit out with his comment too. Can't we stick to constructive discussion instead of insulting and trethening each other?

As for the "real" snowboarder, is there such a thing?

To me it is someone who does it with love and passion. Loving any available gear, slope, snow condition, every turn, every fall... without the need to prove something except to himself... None of us here qualify, because we write on this board :(

Bordy's description is more of a "pro" snowboarder.

Then, there's "good" snowbaorder. He can ride any gear and get the best out of it, applying the most efficient technique, or a less efficient one for the fun of it.

Then, more on gear. What's a latest technology race Tomahawk good to a beginner? He would certainly be better of on a soft UP... Then quiver will grow and modern boards would come. Ride them all, love them all. It's all good.

Boris