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Knees together or apart?


JJFluff

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now that this has moved from a technique to equipment thread, a comment comes to mind.

everyone and the sport benefits when new gear sales are strong. i look at it from my position. i can not drop a lot of dosh on a board and i am a beginner. i want to purchase the best i can with the money i have. if the new market is strong the chance that i can get a board with newer technology used increases as will my success and enjoyment of the sport. as i progress and the cash-flow increases, i can become a consumer of new gear, which in-turn will hopefully be able to pass down my purchased new gear down to the used market.

ah.. the ideal wolrd...

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Trying to get my head around the difference between the metal boards and my quiver of mainly early 2000s boards (sorry Bordy).

Are there any recreational riders (say, 30 days or fewer per season) out there that have ridden these bad boys? Is this like going from a Corvette to an F1 car (i.e., from good enough to "my gear is way better than I'll ever be"), or is it more like going from a Yugo to a Subie WRX?

I'm more than convinced that at the World Cup level, the metal decks make all the difference - first place finishes don't lie. But I'm curious just how much an average rec rider really stands to benefit.

And did I screw up by not grabbing one of those 183 Speedsters at The House?

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That 189 JJ used to be my GS shape in the late ninetys. Still out rides every burton production board out there.

I sold it to BOLs own Ben Shurman last I new he was still riding and loving it...

Indeed I am good sir. That board still rips. Would love to bring it out for you next we make make turns together.

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Are there any recreational riders (say, 30 days or fewer per season) out there that have ridden these bad boys? Is this like going from a Corvette to an F1 car (i.e., from good enough to "my gear is way better than I'll ever be"), or is it more like going from a Yugo to a Subie WRX?

I'm more than convinced that at the World Cup level, the metal decks make all the difference - first place finishes don't lie. But I'm curious just how much an average rec rider really stands to benefit.

Does the opinion of a >30 day recreational rider count?

I spent about 2 hours on a Metal 183 at SES. I loved the way it handled on the scraped-off spots but actually found the light weight counter-productive when I hit the spots where all the scraped-off stuff accumulated. I spent my $900 on a second Donek Olympic instead. Maybe I just get along with Doneks really well, or maybe it's the fact that I find the ride of the Olympic pretty consistent no matter what the conditions, or maybe it's the fact that my skills aren't good enough to see what the Metal really has to offer. I know my opinions on this matter won't be popular, but you asked for a recreational rider's opinion so there you go.

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Thinking about this thread I realised that I've spent several times more money on skis than on boards. The reason though is simple. I can't get on four plus year old skis and do what I want to do. The changes in boards are subtle, where as the changes in skis have been significant. For most of us mere mortels, finding the right pair of boots or perfect binding set up will have more effect on our riding than using the latest board.

If board technology reaches a tipping point in terms of riding performance for everyone, then sales of new boards would take off. It sounds as if that point may be near, and I'll be first in line.

BobD

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Who I was refering to was the people that buy a insane amount of gear but none of it new and refuse to buy new gear because they want to horde cheap gear.

I don't mean to doubt you Bob, but are there really many people like that? If so, all I can say is "Wow". Maybe it's an "over the pond" thing; the only people I know who have significant quantities of old gear are people who horde their own old gear which they have generally bought new or nearly new.

As a "liftie", I see pretty much all types of riders and skiers coming through; alpine riders are relatively rare and seem to be split between the local lads who, like me, run older gear, and the tourists, who run newer / brand new stuff. There's a few tourists who have to make the choice between a pass or a board, too, they tend to be better riders than most of the guys on spanking new gear...

Much like the skiers, there are 2 distinct groups; those that do it because they love it, because they couldn't _not_ do it, and those that do it because it's a bit of fun. And that's where you start talking about people who are dedicated to the sport; it's not about money. The guy might be running an old asymmetric with ghetto plates and boots, but if it's a choice between that or not riding at all...

You and Bordy and pretty much everyone here obviously fall into the group where you couldn't not be doing it. You're lucky to be in the group where you can afford the gear as well.

When I was in London, we would leave work on Friday night, drive overnight down to the alps, arrive at dawn, ride all weekend, sleeping in the car more often than not, then drive back Sunday night to be back at work on Monday morning. Every other weekend. Why? Because the snow was there, but we couldn't afford to fly every other week. Boarding is a major part of why I left London, left what was a reasonably paid career, to live in a house with no heating, hot water or indoor toilet, in the Alps. A move from a comfortable life with guaranteed work to an uncomfortable and, frankly, very hard life with no job in an area where work is seasonal and generally manual and the salary barely covers living costs. I went from systems programming to wielding a pickaxe in the summer and driving a chairlift in the winter, and spending pretty much every spare moment either riding or making my house livable. So yeah, laugh at my gear, even laugh at the way I ride, but don't ever say I'm not dedicated.

Cheers.

Simon

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i definitely know what i'm doing next time i'm up on the slopes. gonna try both knees together and apart.

Bordy: sometimes it's not what you're saying but how you're saying it that's more effective. (kennedy looked way better on the camera than nixon did... was what kennedy was saying more logical/valid, probably not, but he won anyway)

my point being this. i'm completely new to plates (bought a bunch of brand new gear, atv, donek fc1, and some td2s -- so i'm helping the sport :D:biggthump -- doesn't mean i can do anything near what JJFluff is doing), and i'm thinking you're trying to help promote the sport to people like me. there's a lot that goes into promoting things, and sometimes PR is just as important if not more important when promoting.

i don't question what you're saying, or anyone else is saying on this board as far as technique is concerned, because i'm in no position to do that. if jack says, you're good, then you're good. i read the tech articles here and the carvers almanac and take it in as gold since i have no other resorces.

the problem is, that you really come across as an a-hole in your posts (i've seen 2-3 threads here reach critical mass when you've posted -- and i definitely don't think you mean any malice by it when all is said and done). it might not be a problem in person since there's voice tone, body language, etc. etc. -- so it doesn't come across as poorly as it does online. you say that you don't care how you're perceived online, but maybe you should care (a little bit)...

technology is something, and i don't know if you noticed it, but alpine boarding is only alive because of the ONLINE grassroots movement it has made. without online hardbooting would be dead. no hardbooting gear is sold in any stores. talking to your local sport challet/REI/big 5/ sporting good store isn't going to get you information on hardbooting. everything is online as far as the hardbooting market is concerned. hell, i only learned about hardbooting because i happend to come across BOL by accident after i broke my last freeride board. all my alpine gear purchase has been through the online market.

you talk about promoting the sport (and i don't doubt that in any way, shape, or form), but a lot of the sport is promoted/discovered through the internet now. i think you could help better promote the sport with a more tactful online image, if people don't take the time to see more than what you first come across and dismiss alpine boarding because of it, then you've done just as much harm if not more than JJ as far as promoting the sport.

btw, to go with your skinning a cat analogy. you could skin the cat with a knife or a spoon. bordy skins it with a chainsaw -- faster, more efficient, more effective... but way messier

i can tell you one thing, though, i'll definitely be trying some knees apart with half a degree of outward cant.

done ranting. and, no technical comments here except that i'm gonna give a bunch of this a try next time out.

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i definitely know what i'm doing next time i'm up on the slopes. gonna try both knees together and apart.

Bordy: sometimes it's not what you're saying but how you're saying it that's more effective. (kennedy looked way better on the camera than nixon did... was what kennedy was saying more logical/valid, probably not, but he won anyway)

my point being this. i'm completely new to plates (bought a bunch of brand new gear, atv, donek fc1, and some td2s -- so i'm helping the sport :D:biggthump -- doesn't mean i can do anything near what JJFluff is doing), and i'm thinking you're trying to help promote the sport to people like me. there's a lot that goes into promoting things, and sometimes PR is just as important if not more important when promoting.

i don't question what you're saying, or anyone else is saying on this board as far as technique is concerned, because i'm in no position to do that. if jack says, you're good, then you're good. i read the tech articles here and the carvers almanac and take it in as gold since i have no other resorces.

the problem is, that you really come across as an a-hole in your posts (i've seen 2-3 threads here reach critical mass when you've posted -- and i definitely don't think you mean any malice by it when all is said and done). it might not be a problem in person since there's voice tone, body language, etc. etc. -- so it doesn't come across as poorly as it does online. you say that you don't care how you're perceived online, but maybe you should care (a little bit)...

technology is something, and i don't know if you noticed it, but alpine boarding is only alive because of the ONLINE grassroots movement it has made. without online hardbooting would be dead. no hardbooting gear is sold in any stores. talking to your local sport challet/REI/big 5/ sporting good store isn't going to get you information on hardbooting. everything is online as far as the hardbooting market is concerned. hell, i only learned about hardbooting because i happend to come across BOL by accident after i broke my last freeride board. all my alpine gear purchase has been through the online market.

you talk about promoting the sport (and i don't doubt that in any way, shape, or form), but a lot of the sport is promoted/discovered through the internet now. i think you could help better promote the sport with a more tactful online image, if people don't take the time to see more than what you first come across and dismiss alpine boarding because of it, then you've done just as much harm if not more than JJ as far as promoting the sport.

btw, to go with your skinning a cat analogy. you could skin the cat with a knife or a spoon. bordy skins it with a chainsaw -- faster, more efficient, more effective... but way messier

i can tell you one thing, though, i'll definitely be trying some knees apart with half a degree of outward cant.

done ranting. and, no technical comments here except that i'm gonna give a bunch of this a try next time out.

The sport of hardbooting was and has been growing prior to online actions.

And just for a quick heads up. I have been promoting hardbooting via the internet for quite a while.

Last time I checked I Make tons of gear avalable for sale to lots of people, as well as operate one of the largest and diversified, demo fleets in the US.

As for you advise on my online persona. Thanks but no thanks, I write how I feel and stopped worrying what the BOL community thought a long time ago.

As I have stated several times before this board is not only a great resource for New Alpine riders, But a huge disapointment for the true dirrection and current treands in the True alpine world.

This board allows any one with a key board the oppertunity to "share Info".

I have been on this board since Fin told me about it when he conceived it.

I have a professanal relations ship with everyone the people on this board consider the "Gurus" of the sport. I have very little want or dissare to have to explain, My back ground and leavel of experance to every New Poster who can't beleive what they are reading because they have been carving sucsessfully for 10+ years. And they of course have it figured out so how in the world could some cat online be conterdicting them? Then the Flaminf begins.

If you do a search on this board you will discover I have been here for a very long time. and any time I get involed in any thread it has huge inpact.

I have tried to adjust my online persona so many times to make the Recrational riders and arm chair carvers feel Better, only to get it from some one else. I have recived hundreds of private e-mail from people telling me I am wrong about this or incorrect about that. But withen my pers The info is proven.

Your a great example of what I deal with daily on this board.

You say at the begining of the thread you have one day on hardboots but you are "ready" to give the knees together knees apart technique a try?

Even change your cant a bit? Why? Has your riding progressed to the point where you really need to fine tune it? After only one day? I bet you have logged more hours on the BOL board then on your real Board. I am not saying this is a bad thing persay. But it already has influanced your riding after you have oneday in hard boots?????

Heres my take on it. Some cat post up info that is conter produtive to current riding technique gear etc. It happens two or three times a year. Some times is about gear and how they have "discoverd" using these techniques on their local hill in New Jersey, they are the best Alpine rider there. Now there really is two ways to varify their skill and technique

, They A. could compete and see how they really rank. Then using that practical info in comparision. This would be a realiable sorce with a practical back ground.

Or B. Could log onto BOL and throw out the info to the masses. At which point it will be read and eveluted by any one who post here. Myself and a few others who are realialbe sources included. There will be discussions both educated and semieducated and of course uneducated.

In a discusion with so much diversity there are bound to be disagreements.

If I dissagree or agree And I take the time to share my ideas there is no better feeling then to have my Free Form writing style (which is who I am and how I write) belittled by Board members who have never met me but have passed judgement because they would like to see me candy coat everything.

I then hear well you treat others on the board as being infearer, Well why not, I know the people in the industry changing the sport, I know the fast guys and girls setting the treands, I know the board makers who are building the current crop of gear. I know who the up and coming fast guys and girls are. I am an expert in my field. I know who my Pers in the country are. There are people out there who know just as much if not more then me but they have all been chased of BOL after trying to candy coat everything only to be so belittled they just dissmiss the BOL board.

I refuse to sit by and watch the BOL communty be jaded with bad info, and only really get involved when it does.

If I have the time to sit and bang away on my keyboard then I will. If the board thinks I am an A-hole Fine.

I know I am not and could care less, I get hugs from every alpine rider I see on the hill thats alot better then the crap most BOL posters give me.(except in person)

I love the sport of Alpine rideing but Hate what it is becoming here on BOL.

Point is For many of you this really is Alpine snowboarding, this Board this BOL forum, Many of you state it regularly, your yourself are ready to change your riding after one day because of what you read here.

My Alpine world is on the hill, At the races, at the WTC,SES,ECES. And what happens there is nothing like what happens on this BOL forum.

If I have to be the A-hole to help just one rider on the Forum cross into the real badass exciting world of current alpine riding then its all worth it.

The rest of the BOL community can sit by and watch as we push the sport and the rest of you struggle to catch up.

It is only in this matter that we will create new Manufactors, Retail location, and perhaps even Alpine orented Parks and features and resort.

This is the same work I have been doing for 20 years well before the Internet had any thing to do with it.............

This board is nothing more then a great tool for me to continue preaching. You dont have to like me.

But everyone still tends to read what I write. Whats the power of that??

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Well said Billy.

For all that haven't met Billy face to face, come to an event (WTC,SES,ECES) and meet Billy. He is the s*** both on a board and off. Once you meet him there will be no question about his skills or his personality. And you will feel stupid for being a d*** online. Billy is one of the coolest cats I know and he also is the REAL deal on a snowboard.

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Guys, Just a little perspective here.... This is a Internet Message board, Nothing more :nono:

Bobby,

This board had a lot to do with many riders ideas of the sport. Case in point that cat Bullwings has one day on hard boots and 127 post. Its more then just a internet message board to him he has already used at as a point of referance and a source of info. It is one of only a few sources for alpine info( BOL, carvers almanac, hardbooter.com, catek). If there where 20+ alpine riders at each resort then this board would not have as much of a inpact. You could share ideas and info with them.

But since there are only a few riders per resort this is one of the few places people can get info, good bad correct, incorrect..

I think the main difference here is several of us get together and make turns, at get togethers. We almost are like a family.

I am the bastard step son with ADHD. :biggthump

Ben,

That was nice of you to say....

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Bro, I do Evil business on a TON of message boards and have for the past 8 years. I have seen all the flame wars and antagonists. I have seen boards evolve and flourish and seen them die. Sh!t I had my own with 1500 registered users. Point is a small percentage of the population get FAR to engrossed in the whole concept and treat it like its their lives, willing to die for "The Board", Please :barf:

In the end I appreciate what you are trying to convey.

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Bobby, I think this board has bigger influence than the average forum. Just look at all the get-togethers it has spawned. I think the feeling of community helps some of us more isolated riders keep going.

Billy, I was just watching this excellent video on your website. I loved the sequence of the Kessler in the slush. Compared to other similar videos, you're carrying way more speed in way more difficult conditions. I don't know if people appreciate that compared to nearly slow-motion laid-out turns on perfect cord.

But the whole aim of the video seems to contradict what you're saying in this thread about equipment. I thought it was important enough to transcribe Phil's summary comments towards the end. Care to explain/clarify?

Equipment... yeah, it's important, but not as important as the rider input and rider technique used to turn the equipment and get the equipment to do what you want. You shouldn't... I don't think you should be pigeonholing yourself into needing specific equipment to do a specific type of turn or use specific technique. You can adapt and make all sorts of different boards, boots, bindings work. Yeah, some are going to work better than others but you don't need to do a layed-out turn with a specific boot-board-binding setup. You don't need to do a race-type turn with a specific race snowboard. You can do it all. You can do it on soft boots if you wanted to.
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Neil,

The whole Idea of the video was to have a go at lots of turn styles on different types of gear. Although Phil and I both beleave you can make any turn or use any style on any board. We never addressed the Quality of the turn or the proformance of the gear we used.

Most of that gear was way out there in shape or date. And if you remember at the time there was alot of discussion about needing spacific gear to make spacific turns. Ie. Narrow waist=no layed out turns. Side cut radius must by 13m to make this style of turn. Bindings must be at this angle/cant, boot must flex this way etc.

Then in just a Day Phil and I took two runs on each board and took turns filming us riding different styles.

I also snuck in a few turns on the PJ, Phil even rode period boots.

Some styles are more suited for some types of gear that is for sure, Race boards rip a race course to threads, Free ride sticks are easy to turn.

But some styles are more effective then others. And why I understand JJFluff is using inputs and weighting to bend his board and turn with his knees together there are biomechcanical stops and limits to the amount of balance and input he can maintain on any surface, let alone grade changes. Requardless of the gear. However since the gear is "forgiving" he can maintain his style and enjoy him self.

I of course have the same veiw as always "go slide" I dont care how, when, were or on what.

But the thread was disscussing the style of knees together then alot of the rookies started buying in. I have always promoted the sport to all riders through experamentation. And for sure go out and try riding with your knees locked. But it is just unjust to promote the affectivness of a biomechnically weak platform.

On the flip side the board never cares how the weight is applied just that it is applied in the correct spot at the correct time. If you can go do it on your hands great. Is it the most affective? Would you need gear suited for the turn on your hands nope but it would be easier.

Just like it is easier to make turns with poor input on softer gear.

The section on the Kessler was the only time I made turns as I like to.

But I have to ride my new Kessler different.

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I have tried to adjust my online persona so many times to make the Recrational riders and arm chair carvers feel Better, only to get it from some one else. I have recived hundreds of private e-mail from people telling me I am wrong about this or incorrect about that. But withen my pers The info is proven.

...

There are people out there who know just as much if not more then me but they have all been chased of BOL after trying to candy coat everything only to be so belittled they just dissmiss the BOL board.

Hey Bordy, personally I appreciate your willingness to stay on the forum and keep us rec riders informed of developments at the high end of the sport. I saw you race at Crystal Mountain last season and you obviously know what you're talking about. As a rec rider averaging around 20 days/season, my physical ability and/or financial wherewithal to implement your advice may be limited, but I've never doubted that the high-end riders are the ones that are evolving technique and blazing the trail for rec riders to follow (as best as we can).

As far as other racers deserting the forum: I've been curious that there aren't more high-level racers on BOL...sorry to hear that they got driven away. There's so few hardbooters out there that we really can't afford an internal schism. Hope they know that despite appearances a lot of people here would really appreciate hearing from them.

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heh, for me, it doesn't really matter what i think of your personality, obviously.

i can definitely see that you know your stuff, and i'm not questioning that all, i just felt that your messages could be more effective with more diplomacy.

however, after seeing stuff, the "bad cop" approach definitely has a different marketting aspect to it that is effective in it's own right. just looking at this thread alone, and the number of posts and views that it has receive is evidence of that.

my whole point is, as a complete newbie, and outsider to the sport (just currently trying stuff out), you pretty much make some people feel like $hit. and whatever, i'll still take whatever advice you have and do my best to work with it. i wouldn't know any better. hell if someone here gave me "wrong" advice, i'd probably try to work with that as well since i wouldn't know any better. my whole point is that making people (noobs like myself included) feel like $hit isn't the best marketting strategy.

granted, you're still around, and hardbooter.com probably sells a lot of gear (other wise you wouldn't be around), but could sales be increased (who knows, i sure as hell wouldn't, but i can speculate).

and yes, i have logged more hours on the boards than i have on plate bindings. and i have logged more hours reading as much online info and articles as possible than i have on plate bindings. and no, i definitely haven't fine tuned my riding to the point where i'll feel a major difference making changes. but do you think trash talking me because of my noobness helps your sport??

if you do that to every noob that comes along, then come 20-30 years from now, all you'll have are a bunch of old farts on plate bindings. but me, i don't care if you trash talk me and belittle me, but some people do care.

you probably didn't even read my whole post because you don't respect me enough since i'm a noob (that's probably a bunch more people here), which is all fine and well. i can't do anything about that.

you don't have to candy coat your messages and shoot rays of sunshine up my ass and all, but you don't have to be so crabby when you type every message. and yes, i have read many of the topics you post in (i know what the search function is). i'm not questioning anything you say at all.

as far as you being an A-hole, to help ONE rider... :lol::lol::lol: you could probably help a ton more riders by NOT being an a-hole, but you'll never know since you are one (online at least - i hope i one day get the chance to meet you for what you really are, and maybe you can show me some great things - no sarcasm at all there). but this (me) dumbass doesn't care. i'll give my best to trying out whatever advice you or anyone else here has to give.

i was just trying to give you a view of what a new person coming into the sport and seeing you first hand through the net might see, but you obviously don't care.

it seems that nobody ever cares what the noobs see or think of the sport, and that's probably part of the reason why it hasn't progress as much as it can. it's new people that make the sport grow and really spread the word. if i spread the word to a bunch of soft booters as a convert, it has more weight than any preaching you can tell them. they see you as a hardbooter, and your words don't hold the weight to that kind of crowd. if you don't care and don't give a $hit, well then you've missed a key opportunity for pushing the sport forward and spreading it to more people.

if you wanna keep the sport all niche and catered to only racers, elitists, etc. etc. then you're definitely doing a good job of it online (as far as message boards are concerned). most noobs would be scared away from the sport after you post...

as far as people with real skills and knowledge being chased off of the boards, it's not from people like me. people like me are ready to absorb and really try what advice you have to give. we don't know any better. the people fighting you are old school people that are set in their ways and don't want to change. people like me have come to alpine boarding so that we CAN change.

and no, you don't deal with people like me on a daily basis, since you don't know anything about me (eh, maybe you do, i don't know what you deal with on a daily basis...). you jump all over people for making assumptions about you, and yet you do it yourself.

the only thing you're doing right now as far as noobs are concerned is chasing them away with your elitist attitude. i'm not saying that you don't have the credentials and what not to do that, but it doesn't help.

anyway, you're probably going to belittle me in one way or another and make me feel like $hit because you're so good at it (maybe even better at it than snowboarding). in the process though, can you throw out some advice for a 2 day plate rider (got some time in between now and the last post) noobie? (definitely no sarcasm there). i'm here to learn.

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Everybody should take a deep breath, drink a little fresh coffee and relax. It usually works with my kids. All except the coffee part. Ride what and how it feels right and never mind what everyone else says. Just remeber opinions are like a**holes, every one has one and they all stink.

Think Snow

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heh, for me, it doesn't really matter what i think of your personality, obviously.

anyway, you're probably going to belittle me in one way or another and make me feel like $hit because you're so good at it (maybe even better at it than snowboarding). in the process though, can you throw out some advice for a 2 day plate rider (got some time in between now and the last post) noobie? (definitely no sarcasm there). i'm here to learn.

For some one who it doesn't matter what you think of me or my personallity, you sure are taking plenty of time to point out what you think all my short comings are. And how i could or should change according to the way You read and interpret my post.

Then your worried about me my making you feel like as $hit?????

Dude you must be some young kid who really thinks I need a lesson in on line edicate etc.

this is who i am and how I write. If you want to percive it online how ever you want great. You are very wrong and just being a Ass. To me.

Heres a helpfull hint.(since there is no way I will ever help a noobie with rideing as you assume, except for the thousands I have taught to ride) you can block out all of my post then you never have to read them. then some day you'll meat me and wonder why you think I need to be educated. Then you'll understand.

Why I need to take the time to even respond to this type of crap from Rookies is why I am begining to hate this Community so much.

If this was a Nascar forum and I was some driver posting you would just sit back read and be stoked I was sharing info. But becasue it a Snowboard board that really needs to catch up with current trend and i mention it, my style of writing and you interpritation of it come into play. Against the info i share????

nonsesnse.

I spent the whole time this summer as a kiteboard rookie and never had any problem on any kite forum using the same style of writing. But i dont think I every treated any of the experanced kiters on thoose forums they way I get treated here.

I spent time on other forums and recive praise and thanks for my input with the same style.

Here on a snowboard forum where I relly know whats up and make a huge difference.

i get crap from people who cant even find it in themselves to read what i write as though it comes from a informed source that is sharing info requrdless of how they think it should be interprited??

I am not trying to make you feel like an *******. But you sure are being one online.

Trying to edecate me with snowboarding would be one thing.

Trying to edecate me about life is way out of line. You my friend and, I rarley treat anyone this way and want you to know this is really out of true malice and you should interprate as so!!!!

ARE A TOOL.

Any thing I read from you from now on will be veiw as so. Since you so clearly beleive thats how my info should be veiwed.

"If there was a little smiley fliping you off I would have placed it here!!!"

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Back to the OP: I ride with my knees together...sortof. I try to keep my rear knee as close to being inside my front knee as possible. I feel that it allows me to get lower when I need to tuck, and it also allows the board to flex more naturally along its length. I might be wrong, I might be right. That's what works for me.

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An interesting way to think about "ride height" is that there are three basic reference positions.

Tall.........Middle (default).........Low

The middle position (default) allows the rider to adjust their COM (center of mass) up or down to better suit the conditions and terrain. The idea of riding in one position all over the mountain is a little can I say .........limiting. The ability to adjust ride height is extremely important to negotiate terrain and to apply the most beneficial amount of edge pressure/control. If you were to ride down a hill and the terrain was undulating with rollers and other similar features riding low will not allow for the "suspension" necessary. In other words if your "default" position is low there is little or no room to adjust your ride height and absorb the terrain feature (roller). By riding low their is little range left to compress, by riding too tall the legs/knees tend to be "locked" and again this is not ideal as it will translate any/all bumps through to the upper body (not good for balance). So practicing your ride heights is important and the ability to switch from one ride height to another is an important "tool" in your skills repertoire.

Here is a good way of finding a strong middle position to use as your reference for other ride heights. While standing on your board (not moving) check out your range from low (squat) to tall (upright). Now find a comfortable middle position and check to see if your forward bent knee is over the toe of your front boot. Now to adjust your upper body for this position check to see if the zipper tab on your jacket (with jacket fully zipped up) dangles over the bent front knee. That is a great way to find your reference position and making sure that you are not bent over at the waist.

There does seem to be a corelation between riding styles and the riders prefered "height" position. The LOW position is often used in the knees apart style and riders in a TALL position often find it easy to ride the knees locked together style. And YES this is a generalization. The real trick is to learn all three positions (instinctually) and be able to adjust them instantly as the conditions dictate.

Now for some real fun anyone want to jump in to the discussion with a comment on ride heights at different parts of the turn. Or we could just pick apart anything technically oriented and go back to the "he said" "she said" BLAH BLAH BLAH

EXCELLENT post. Thanks for that. I am well aware that I tend to ride tall, and while I wouldnt say my knees are "locked" together, they do see each other quite frequently.

I have every intention of giving that some attention soon as I get on the hill. A few days spent focusing on technique will be worth it if it improves my riding.

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I've been following this thread, but there are two things that it seems were not mentionned (or that were and I forgot):

1) With knees apart, not only do you have more control, but it is easier to skid to a stop in an emergency situation (or when someone cuts you off too closely).

2) With knees apart, it is easier to shift you weight fore and aft for control and to prevent leg fatigue (which happened when I was riding with the dreaded Burton cant that pulls your knee together).

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As far as other racers deserting the forum: I've been curious that there aren't more high-level racers on BOL...sorry to hear that they got driven away. There's so few hardbooters out there that we really can't afford an internal schism. Hope they know that despite appearances a lot of people here would really appreciate hearing from them.

or "what's right" vs "what's the way to get there"...

I REALLY wanted to stay out of this but I think Lonerider brings up a really interesting point. At some point when advice is needed from a fellow carver giving "just enough information" is better than giving the "right information".

It seems that the super experts like Bordy or PSR or those high level racers "who have deserted the board" who's riding level far surpasses 99% of those on this board have a problem returning to their beginning state and remembering the "NOOB" spirit. The experts who can return to their beginning mind and remember the spirit that they had when they were novices are the ones that I really appreciate on this board (Jack being probably the uber teacher on the board having spent so much energy in writing his incredibly informative articles).

Personally the most fun I had in learning was in the search for the right answer not having it being handed to me. Most independent intellegent people like finding out answers for themselves. They come to this kind of space out if either curiousity or if they've hit a wall. I'm glad other threads have started that acknowledge the breadth of experience we have on this board.

and just to make sure it isn't misconstrued, debate is also interesting and informative as well...

Back to lurking...

Kelvin

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