Knees together or apart?

[carverboy]

Every day on the hill I hold the line for hardbooting Bordy. Im the guy who patiently answers all the questions from the tourist and loans his equipment to anyone who wants (or I can convince ) to try hard boots.

If I could ride a super board I would. I changed my riding style radically when symetrics came along and Im certainly not scared to do so again if need be.

Here in the South East there are no new alpine boards to demo and I dont lay down my hard earned cash without knowing a board is going to work for me. Hell, Im not even completely satisfied with the overly progressive sidecut on the atomic firestarter I did buy. It was the closest thing to a race board I could find, demo and shop form. No, Im not cheap Im poor. So save the cheap ass comments for the Lawyer looking for a deal on last years gear, I see that all the time too. And as far as knees together, I did say that I too pull my knees apart while riding.So relax Im not attacking your technique.

Have a great season, Im still waiting for my resort to open, which is why Im hanging out here. otherwise Id be making turns right now.

[JJFluff]

When on the timeline was the standard set as far as correct body postioning. Am I right to believe that the driving force behind it was creating speed and stability in the race course? I can see how knees apart, and keeping the COG close to the board in course is important due to slick icy grooves, as well as manuevering around the flags on a pgs course.

At that point did it just moved into freeriding? Skiiers make a distinction between the two.- Freeriding, and racing. A ski racer on course skis differently than when riding the mountain. Why is it necesary to do so in snowboarding.

Jack, you said that I ride with a smooth style, but anybody could, including your Grandma on those hero conditions. I live in Milwaukee, WI. I ride on a 200 verticle-man made snow hill. We are lucky to ever see conditions like I see every year when I go out west. So I guess I got to the point I am at now riding on very less than hero snow, right?

[David Glynn]

First I salute everyone's pasion for this sport! It's the joy of the motion! Everyday I give thanks that I am not a rock.To help you understand my prospective: I've been skiing for over 40 years and riding plates for ten.I've competed on the pro level as a skier in the moguls and coached mogul skiing for about 8 years and have raced plates only on the amature level with some fair sucsess.

Now having said that. It is my opinion that our bag of tricks should be as full as possible so that we can be as rounded a performer of our sport as possible.Competitive mogul skiing is one way of doing it freestyle bump skiing is another, shall we say, more diverse way. Race technique snowboarbing one way, free carving another, again shall we say, more diverse way. Competition demands that we ride in the most technicaly effecient way espescialy when the clock is the judge. Free riding on the other hand opens the door to style or personal expresion if you choose.

I have spent time riding with my knees together and enyoyed it. Currently I ride with my knees apart. But because I have riden with them together it is a trick that I can pull out of my bag when needed.

Two days ago circumstances dictated an incredibly tight turn or an unwanted trip into the woods. So I layed my 181 coiler pure race over and squeezed my knees together to reverse camber it and did a near circle that was no more than about 15 feet in diameter. So what is that? a 2 1/2 meter radius? That tight of turn ( not the circle ) might come in handy when late on a gate , no? My point? Fill up that bag of tricks!

I have a question for Boardy.

To help quantify the differences of the new gear over the old and that gear in between, what would the aproximate time differences ( not the riders enjoyment or revulsion of the ride) be between say a new kessler, a coiler pure race , a sims burner , and a burton factory prime on a gs course of aprx.1 minute length by the same rider ( you if you'd like.) and same length of

boards? You get the idea I think, trying to keep as many varriables as close as possible. Or maybe you should use your own judgement to select the best type of kessler best burton etc. for this imaginary or real course.

Indian

[JJFluff]

Hey Bordy, I saw on one post that you do accept a T6 as a good board. I thought you would like to know that although I totally rip a fp. My freeride board is no other than a T6. It snaps like no other freeride board I've ridden. But the FP rips too, believe it or not.

note: knees together, body moving in direction of turn, little angulation, and some inclination.

[Phil]

At that point did it just moved into freeriding? Skiiers make a distinction between the two.- Freeriding, and racing. A ski racer on course skis differently than when riding the mountain. Why is it necesary to do so in snowboarding.

I think that you are confusing tactics with body movements/biomechanics. Racers use different tactics in the race course, but they do so with the most efficient and effective movements possible. When not in the course, they may use different tactics, but they will tend to use the same basic movements in their riding.

[Justin A.]

I think that you are confusing tactics with body movements/biomechanics. Racers use different tactics in the race course, but they do so with the most efficient and effective movements possible. When not in the course, they may use different tactics, but they will tend to use the same basic movements in their riding.

Excellent point. When I'm racing I use alot of cross-through technique for the fastest edge to edge possible, but if I'm out freeriding, the majority of my riding is done using the cross over technique, for that souly zen feeling. It's kinda off topic, but more on topic than many other posts in this thread ;) .

I have to give my props and agg points for the day to Bordy for being a trooper and hanging with us, despite people who would see him go. One of the first lessons I learned is that Computer+Person+Anonymity offered by the internet = *******

[JJFluff]

I guess what it all boils down to for me is that the angulated style that everyone rides appears to look so uncomfortable and contorted to me. I will definately be working on it this upcoming week to feel the difference.

Years ago I would be riding out west and notice that everyone else rode "hunched over." At the time I didn't know all of the techy terms like angulating and what not. I'm not sold right now on the style. But like I said, I can't wait to give a go.

Maybe I should have named the thread differently as well. Knees together is kind of misleading into thinking that I'm holding my knees together. When actually they come together both heelside and toeside because of the weight that is being transferred to the front of the turn. When riding I focus on the edge pretty much from the front foot forward. I think one reason why riding this way is so successful for myself is that alot of force is directed forward taking unneeded forces off of the board. This way less of a load is needed on the edge to hold the turn. It makes for a very effortless looking ride as well. Rarely do I ever feel chatter. Even when loosing an edge, my body is in possition to recover very quickly I even think it has a lot to do with the fact that I was able to use a pair of Burton 3ds for over ten years without anythng snapping. Eficient transfer of force from body to board.

But at this point, I've kind of started to beat the dead horse. I'll ride the way I want to and all who read these posts will ride the way they want to. I was just trying to figure out what the scoop was with the angulated crowd.

Hopefully I can think of another hair raising thread to top this one.

[JJFluff]

As a person who is a race coach and a competitive ski racer, I can say this is in no way true. As the others have said, my tactics may change out of the course, but the mechanics of my skiing (and for that matter my boarding) certainly do not. Good skiing technique is good technique no matter where it is done.

Yeah, I know ken, I worded that post horribly. Good technique is used for both. I have a point, but at this point, oh well, I'm just going to let it go.

[Bullwings]

this is who i am and how I write. If you want to percive it online how ever you want great. You are very wrong and just being a Ass. To me.

Heres a helpfull hint.(since there is no way I will ever help a noobie with rideing as you assume, except for the thousands I have taught to ride) you can block out all of my post then you never have to read them.

Why I need to take the time to even respond to this type of crap from Rookies is why I am begining to hate this Community so much.

I am not trying to make you feel like an *******. But you sure are being one online.

ARE A TOOL.

"If there was a little smiley fliping you off I would have placed it here!!!"

thanks, but totally uncalled for. i doubt you even read through my whole post, or if you did, you misinterpreted it.

i'm being an ass? lol. ok fine...

i ask for a little advice and you just throw it in my face... ok fine.

sorry for asking. you're obviously not an approachable online resource, which is all I have as far as resources go.

my apologies, i'll just get what you call wrong information from everyone else here at BOL (except for 5 people - according to you).

btw, thanks for crushing this rookie and making him feel like $hit. i'm still gonna be hardbootin though, albeit incorrectly...

[Phil]

Knees together is kind of misleading into thinking that I'm holding my knees together. When actually they come together both heelside and toeside because of the weight that is being transferred to the front of the turn.

From the pics that you have posted, I would argue that this is not the reason. IMO, the reason your knees are together is because you face the nose of your board, putting unnecessary twist in your body. If you don't believe me, stand up right now at your computer. Face your toes, then face your (imaginary) nose of the board. Knees come together naturally.

[willywhit]

annnddd discuss.....and how !

BIO mechanics...very important.

Knees locked ? what ? No. Don't do that.

Moving on......I asked Lowell Hart about the leg lock technique well over 10 years ago and he said, "Use your legs as independent shock absorbers, you'll be fine" or something to that effect and that was that.

When you run high angles on skinny boards with a tighter stance, your knees will be close, that's it.

Think about leaning into the turn, leaning slightly forward. Rock back to neutral for the meat of the turn and roll back a little to pressure your rear foot as you exit the turn, simple.

I may be handing out bad advice, but that's my basic vision of carving 101.

If you wanna run outdated gear, go for it. If you're serious about carving you'll eventually crave better gear.To each his own.

If you wanna really rip some psycho turns......talk to Bordy, talk to Gilmour, chase Fleck around.

This isn't a sewing circle of old ladies, sack up. If the coach has a gruff tone but has good information about your riding, swallow hard and listen up.

[Jack M]

Jack, you said that I ride with a smooth style, but anybody could, including your Grandma on those hero conditions. I live in Milwaukee, WI. I ride on a 200 verticle-man made snow hill. We are lucky to ever see conditions like I see every year when I go out west. So I guess I got to the point I am at now riding on very less than hero snow, right?

I stand corrected - I thought I read somewhere that you spent most of your time out west - a lot of midwesterners do. My point in citing my grandmother wasn't made to belittle you, it was just to say that it's impossible to evaluate someone's abilities on the buff buff cord cord.

Sure, you can learn to carve quite well and have a lot of fun with an older technique. I spent many years riding that way (4 on an Asym! The horror!) and had a blast and got whoops from the chairlift here on the Ice Coast. But I moved on and I ride better now than I did then.

[Jack M]

I guess what it all boils down to for me is that the angulated style that everyone rides appears to look so uncomfortable and contorted to me. I will definately be working on it this upcoming week to feel the difference.

Years ago I would be riding out west and notice that everyone else rode "hunched over." At the time I didn't know all of the techy terms like angulating and what not. I'm not sold right now on the style. But like I said, I can't wait to give a go.

I understand why you think it looks uncomfortable. There are a lot of people who carve very well but with a very bent-over style that is not helping anything. I try to keep a more upright torso:

In this case it is not uncomfortable at all, and I find it very natural. Even when really laying it over, there is no need to "pike" forward at the waist.

[Mike T]

Mike its just about staying in over the balance point. If you get to far inside the edge you put the force along the plane of your leg and right out the base of the board. If you stay just a tad more over the board and let your lower body come up under your upper but still make all the same inputs you will place more weight on the edge and not through it. Does this make sense?

Bordy - thanks for the advice.

I played with keeping my legs bent through the turn and at times "curling my lower body into a ball over the board". Lots of good things happened - I was bending the board harder, and felt additional stability in some spots on the trail that I historically have felt skittish on. Also I *think* I was tending to drive more evenly with both knees on both turns - just "felt right" - but definitely still knees apart.

It was very cool being able to extend my legs when I felt like it - for example to do a long drawn-out turn on a flat - but then suck them back in to go over a roller onto a steep session. My riding certainly became more dynamic over the past couple of days. Headed to SnowPerformance end of next week so I'll keep the learning momentum going

Does the opinion of a >30 day recreational rider count?

I spent about 2 hours on a Metal 183 at SES. I loved the way it handled on the scraped-off spots but actually found the light weight counter-productive when I hit the spots where all the scraped-off stuff accumulated. I spent my $900 on a second Donek Olympic instead. Maybe I just get along with Doneks really well, or maybe it's the fact that I find the ride of the Olympic pretty consistent no matter what the conditions, or maybe it's the fact that my skills aren't good enough to see what the Metal really has to offer. I know my opinions on this matter won't be popular, but you asked for a recreational rider's opinion so there you go.

I took the new Donek Oly (Tucker 04 GS 180/14m/18cm) out for its maiden voyage this weekend. It's a stiffer, springier deck for me. I'm still glad I went that way as opposed to the Metal 183 or 187 for about the same $$$. I seem to have a lasting bond with the Donek feel, the Oly construction does add a sense if invincibility for me and together with the technical experiemntation I was doing (see Knees Apart thread) I'm pretty sure I brought my riding up a notch or two. My biggest frustration is that I can't get up during the week this week... too mcuh work to do.

I was also lucky enough to bum a couple of runs on a Tinkler - Anton Pogue model, 184/14.5m/19cm.

This particular one was very heavy (the top plate almost looks like a deck on top of the deck - I believe the deck itself had no inserts, the bindings are mounted directly to the plate). Completely different experience than anything I've been on to date, and REALLY different from the Prior metal. I don't think I would want something that heavy - but I have a feeling that my next new board will be a Tinkler.

[Mike T]

I try to keep a more upright torso -snip- In this case it is not uncomfortable at all, and I find it very natural.

I too find that keeping my torso upright is very comfortable and natural feeling. When I can't do that anymore, it also means I'm too tired to be carving hard and it's time to grab an AM deck or skis and go tool around with my kid!

[David Glynn]

As a person who is a race coach and a competitive ski racer, I can say this is in no way true. As the others have said, my tactics may change out of the course, but the mechanics of my skiing (and for that matter my boarding) certainly do not. Good skiing technique is good technique no matter where it is done.

As a freesyle coach

I would like to disagree with the, "this is in no way true.", part of your comment. Maybe there are symantical issues here so lets find out.

It is my personal experience with two high level ski racers that I will use as an example. I spent an afternoon skiing bumps with Franz Webber several years ago after watching him ski bumps all morning from the lift. So I got to watch him from all angles all day. And I have never seen a more beautiful bump skier.

Equals yes, but better? no! The second example is Radar Whal. Being that he use to live here in the Telluride area I had the oportunity to watch him ski bumps several times. He was fast but no faster than any good bump skier.

However he was anything but pretty , he always looked like he was in the race course. My point? Webber made all the adjustments to freeski with style but Radar did not. And it showed in a huge way.

Yes good technique is good technique but there is a bigger spectrum to it than most of us are willing to admit. The best skiers and boarders are well rounded with a huge bag of tricks ( techniques) and change things up as needed.

By the way it looks like Boardy may have left us .( temporarily?) Anyone else want to take on the question I asked him in my last post?

Indan

[Phil]

So did either of those mogul skiers use counter productive body movements to get the job done?

I believe that is what we are talking about. I would bet that their tactics were different, but that they both use flawless movement patterns wherever they ski.

[timinor]

David Glynn, I think your observations are right.

[David Glynn]

So did either of those mogul skiers use counter productive body movements to get the job done?

I believe that is what we are talking about. I would bet that their tactics were different, but that they both use flawless movement patterns wherever they ski.

Yes! Where Franz was flawless, Radar was anything but( sorry Radar).Granted I never saw him fall but lack of falling doesn't equate to good bump sking. Finness was not one of his strong points nor was timing and ease. Seldom did he look like he was flowing with the terrain but always at odds with it.

If I were judging both skiers ( i do have judging experience ) Webber would have scored high but Whal low. And for good technical reasons!

Indian

[Guest Tim Tuthill]

Tim and Jack: Go to finelineclub.com and hit gallery members In the pic taken from above, I think my knees are close. This is what I strive to do when boarding! One euro to the next! That is what sets us apart on the mountain. Now I'm getting old! 63 Don't know how much longer I can do this? I'm going to keep it up as long as I can??

[Jack M]

Can't see your knees, but I hope I'm carving that well 31 years from now!!!

[timinor]

Hey Tim Tuthill,

Are you the one that sent me a video, Search for Surf, back in 1994?

Tim

[Guest Tim Tuthill]

Has this thread gone down the road or what??? Skiing????

[timinor]

Tim Tuthill,

You missed my question. scroll up a few posts.

Tim

[tahoetrencher]

Here kitty, kitty...