carving in ski boots

[spretetsky]

I wanted to get people's input on using skiboots for with alpine boards. I am an advanced skier who started alpine snowboarding last year. I decided to use my ski boots for snowboarding so I can easily switch between skis and snowboard during lunch hour, and to avoid paying for and dealing with an extra set of boots.

The problem is that I have been having a hard time with my hill side turn. I have read all the tech articles and viewed many videos. But no matter what I try (including the "hold the edge" drill) I'm still unable to get my weight over the edge. I have a "toilet seat" sindrom :) , and as soon as I try to position my butt over the edge and my upper body rotated and forword, the rear of the board just washes out.

I am wondering if my rear boot needs to be able to flex forward more then it does or if I just need to try harder. Any of you advanced riders ride ski boots? Should I be able to do it? Thanks for your help in advance. Pictures of my problem attached :)

[tex1230]

Technique needs work - I don't think boots will make enough of a difference. There are many here more qualified than me to help with yur technique, but rode all last year in ski boots and have used them on & off for 15+ years...

if you're gonna switch mid-day there's only 2 ways to go: soft/flexy ski boots or UPZ boots with the din toe & heel.

[Gecko]

it looks like you are leaning WAYYYY back...try a bit of heel lift on the back foot maybe...

[kipstar]

OK, well I rode in ski boots for the last 10 years; I only reluctantly switched to indys this year due to breakage and inability to replace the cables of my raichles...having switched, I can say that in perfect carving conditions, ski boots give up almost nothing....but in anything less than perfect, the softness of the snowboard specific boots are actually pretty nice to have; definitely easier on the feet and shins too.

BUt that said, at your level I think you should be getting more fun than this out of the ski boots, and the heel side is the one that you are probably giving up less on since most snowboard boots don't have a rearward spring system anyway.... there are a few technique things I would suggest - bear in mind I haven't ridden much for years, and it is 12 years since I was an instructor (of sorts):

- in the first picture, you are turning through the fall line... but you are not really committing to the turn. Your legs are rotated, but your body is not. Snowboarding, you should drive through the turn at the point you are at; your head; your shoulders; your hips; they should be rotating through the turn, all in the same direction. I am big on rotation when I ride, and I am pretty sure why I have stopped breaking gear as a result; it is easy on your body and smooth to watch. For a heelside turn, you should be starting off the turn out of the fall line tranversing on toe side; let's imagine that if facing forward was 12 oclock, then you might be around say 10 oclock. When you start your heelside turn, then you should have bent legs , your weight should go to about 65% front foot 35% back and you should rotate your hips, and shoulders to about 1-2 oclock as you go through the turn... your eye line, at least initially, should be trying to look over your shoulder abou 20 degrees higher than where you want to go. As you go through the middle of the turn, weight is about 50:50 and at the end of the turn is maybe 45 55; slightly more weight in the back foot. I usually finish the turn rotated around as far as 3; but that is probably from the Swiss style I was taught back when.

Your arms should be easily at your sides, your upper body is best off straight up down, and you have dropped your whole hips into the turn; that is where the edging is coming from, not from leaning out in the upper body.

When I look at what you are doing; you seem like you could rotate your hips and shoulders; at the moment your eyeline is ok, but your body is not following; that's not surprising, many skiers don't really turn out of the fall line. Your right arm is out and back; it should be low and more forward and around than this. You could bend a little more even in the second shot at the knees (the 2nd shot looks quite a bit better than the first) and this will enable you to straightup your upper body to be a little more upright, which will stop the feeling of being toilet seat sitting.

To practise, try setting up at moderate speed on a toeside traverse. Then go into a nice heelside turn, thinking about rotation, dropping down into the turn, and nice stable upper body first up. Just go a turn, and keep going to you are running at 90 degrees to the slope again, then flick around and do again. and again. If you try to link turns, you'll start going to back to what you are doing now. If you have everything right, then you should be able to crank a nice turn on the heel side out without chattering or slipping out at all until you come to a halt. If you are unbalanced, you can cover it up by going straight into your next turn. By breaking things down, you can get the bit you need right.

The second step, think about getting that right arm in the right place.

Third step, work on forward backward weighting and start to get a bit more dynamic.

You should be able to do this drill at almost any speed; not necessarily cranking high speed. Photos are great; you'll be able to see how you are progressing.

Regarding boot settings, just set them not too tight, and try to loosen up the buckles on the cuff; particularly the back one. What type of boot are they?

Hope this helps/////

[Jack M]

I assume you've read The Norm? I think maybe those trails (or at least the first one) are a little too steep for learning? Hard to tell.

Here are some things you should be doing when you make a heelside turn, that it looks like you aren't:

<ol>

<li> look where you want the carve to go

<li> both hands in front, where you can see them.

<li> weight forward - about 70% on front foot.

<li> pressure the heelside edge simply by <i>leaning</i> (not sitting) to that side.

<li> drive your right hand forward and down throughout the turn - keep it in your view.

<li> as the turn comes around, shift weight smoothly to both feet.

<li> use knees for shock absorption only - not to "get low".

</ol>

You're really fighting your equipment in these photos, trying to force it to do something it doesn't want. Carving is not really a sideways sport - remember that. When you're riding properly, in harmony with your equipment, it will feel and look like you're not really doing anything at all, and the board is almost carving itself.

-Jack

[Kent]

Look at my pix in the aligment thread....

It's not the ski boats fault, although you should try to remove some material to soften them up.

You're counter-rotating.

K

[mirror70]

It looks to me like your hips are turned pretty far towards your right. Try to keep your hips more aligned with your front foot. You should find that you have better control over weight transfer this way, and also that your back (right) knee is more free and useful.

[Derf]

My opinion is pretty much the same as the others. You seem to be counter-rotating, meaning you are turning your upper body in the oppposite direction of the turn, which is a normal reflex when you think you're going to fall. There are two things that could help you a lot:

1- Like everyone said, keep your hands in front, this will help to keep a proper upper body alingment. When turning heelside, you can also try to touch the front knee with the back hand.

2- If the tail is washing out, it usually means you are putting too much wieght up front. When turning, you put the weight up front only when initiating the turn, this will back the board start the turn. When you start turning, then shift your weight towards the center and at the end of the turn, you can shift your weight a little towards the back, the board will then push you out of the turn.

And like Jack said, keep your knees bent to absorb the shocks, not to get low.

[patmoore]

It depends on the boots. I rode a few years on an old soft pair of Rossignols and had no difficulty. When I switched to my Technica Ikon Race Boots I was lucky to even turn the board. That's when I purchased my Raichles - what a difference.

I rode at Pico last year with a guy from Stowe who was wearing ski boots. He had the top two buckles completely undone and was laying down some amazing turns in crappy conditions.

[Guest]

You don't look comfortable in your stance at all. That's something you need to play with, be it widening your stance or applying some lift to your back and/or front foot.

It's hard to tell from the pics, but it seems like your bindings are mounted too far forward. Where are they located in regards to the center of the board?

Your torso looks collapsed in on itself and your arms look stiff, like you don't know where to put them. Try doing a level ski pole drill, keeping the pole, and your shoulders, level to the hill.

Bend your knees. Without perfect conditions, you are going to not be able to absorb imperfections in the snow. This is also another issue from your stance that will most likely be fixed once you dial in your stance.

I know you didn't mention this per se, but in your avatar you are breaking pretty badly at the waist to reach for the snow. Don't. The ski pole drill will help with this as well.

Can you get any video?

[marz]

In my 20 years of riding/coaching with ski boots & every other kind of boot, I've found the easiest fix is TOE LIFT for the front ski boot. Ski boots already have plenty of heel lift & forward lean, which usually is great for the back foot. That kind of forward lean on the front foot at Alpine stance angles can hinder the hip rotation that everyone's suggesting. So experiment with approx. 1/8" - 3/8" block under front boot toe, it should help all the other great suggestions happen more easily. Hope it helps

[Jerseyboy]

I should not do this but here goes.....I've been in a lot of clinics and its great when someone can add to your riding...seeing something the clinic leader doesn't, but when 10 people start to give one person feedback they ruin that rider....WAY TO MUCH FEEDBACK. So my suggestion, find another rider, that you would like to ride like, ask to follow them, ask them for some feed back. If you ride any mnt regularly ask around, even in the ski school....there are ex or current hardbooters around. Even a soft booter may be able to help your riding.

All the info above was great and I buy into a good portion of it, but when sick I perfer to see a Doctor in person, not just sending him a couple of still pictures. Not to say that the Doctor would get it all wrong, just that it works better for me.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, but everyone is giving the same fundamental advice.

There's two schools of thought for how your upper body ought to be for alpine - shoulders perpendicular to stance angle, and shoulders perpendicular to the board (length-wise). Yours are nearly lined up with the board. You've got a soft-boot upper body connected to a hardboot lower. This is causing the toilet-sitting and general awkwardness. If you bring your back hand forward, it will help align your upper body and move your butt over the board where it should be.

I think a lesson is definitely in order, if you have an instructor available who knows alpine.

[forrest]

I've always ridden in ski boots. One thing that I have found with riding in ski boots, more related to equipment set up than technique, is that it has been very important to set your stance width based on feel rather than a specific size. All of my ski boots have been very stiff, like most, I have found that by moving your bindings closer together untill you can apply equal pressure in the tongues with relative ease you are more able to align yourself properly with the board and are more relaxed while doing so. When I did this myself I ended up with a stance width that was on the narrow side, but my riding improved quickly. Ski boots have a greater lever on the board which allows you to retain control despite the small stance width. High lift and cant will allow you to widen your stance.

Hardbooting in ski boots isn't all that hard but I have found that much of the equipment set up needs to be adjusted.

[kipstar]

Forrest

For the longest time I thought ski boots were great; bought some pair of snowboard boots and never had the right feel.... until the breakage forced me to change.

I can definitely see that snowboard boots (raichle indys in my case, with race tongues and the RAB tapped out so I can stand a bit more upright) are better in variable conditions...they are also less work once you get going on using your calf muscles (which is something I used to not need to do at all in the ski boots, which you can just lean against the cuff for).

I never bothered to cut slots into the raichle ski boots (even though back 10-12 years ago that was the boot and the adjustment to do in Mammoth where I was riding) because the bindings back then weren't so stiff.

I think going to a set of bombers now, with ski boots, would be a bit too stiff sideways - that little bit of fiddle is quite important I think for driving into turns and not butchering your shins. Mind you, I have almost not sensation in the fronts of my shins anyway from 5 years of Thai kick boxing anyway :-)

I've watched a guy called James Ong, who rips up Mt Rose; he rides with the whole back of the boot cut off so there is no RAB or locking mechanism, and gets more pressure onto the edge of the board than I can with either set up; I am sure he is doing it through really using his calf muscles on the toe side turns, and not just leaning against the front cuff of the boot. It was watching that which made me realise how lazy I'd got in the ski boots. His boots must be like so soft and yet he can crank so hard in them; that must mean that the stiffness of the boot is not the driver for edge holds.

But saying all that, there is not much more sweet than well groomed snow in full cranked ski boots; the absolute locked in feel means every single movement ends up on the board; and I've yet to feel quite as powered up in the snowboard boots as that. Different story in the rough of course :-)

Ski boots seem to be far more angle and cant specific; you get it wrong and it feels so bad, because there is no soft spot in the middle I think where you can whiggle around. It is more locked in. That said, I ride exactly the same angles and cants now as before; wide, slight heel lift, slight cants.

[spretetsky]

Hey, thank you all for your replies! I didn't expect this much feedback, it's great!

I understand about rotating your body and having hands forward, but have been unable to do it. I just got my board and boots out and tried just standing on it, and it is the same story as before: the back boot seems to be too stiff and it prevents me from getting my back knee as low and as forword as I should to get the weight forword. It seems like I can get into the correct hill side form only if I completely unbukle the back boot. But then I don't have any side support at all and it feels too loose.

I use salamon xwave 6.0 boots (80 flex) which are far less stiff then most expert ski boots, and catec bindings with a maximum lift on the back hill.

Those of you who ride in stiff ski boots, do you have the same problem? I see picturs of perfect hill side turns where the back knee is almost touching the back of the front boot. There is no way I can come close to that with my boots unless I completely unbuckle them, and as I said before I cannot raise the back hill of my rear boot any more.

[Jack M]

Just remember that when you're carving there is no steering and no skidding. Are you riding terrain that is maybe a little too steep and you are instinctively trying to check speed? Because it looks like you are trying to push the board around and turn it with your feet. It can be frightening to just lean into the turn and wait for the edge to take you around - but that's what you need to do. If you haven't read the article on The Norm yet, I suggest you do and then spend a full morning practicing it on a green circle until you've got it nailed.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I understand about rotating your body and having hands forward, but have been unable to do it. I just got my board and boots out and tried just standing on it, and it is the same story as before: the back boot seems to be too stiff and it prevents me from getting my back knee as low and as forword as I should to get the weight forword.

I don't understand this - I think your knee movement is a seperate issue from the shoulder alignment. Just standing with my legs straight in an alpine stance, my natural inclination is for my shoulders to be square with my feet, just as if I was walking. I think Jack is probably right - you're trying to steer and probably making the standard newbie mistake of cranking your upper body around to do it. Get thee to a beginner run and try the Norm.

[mirror70]

If you're in the North East, come to Sugarloaf and request a hardboot lesson. We have a number of instructors, like Erik [beckman] and Fuzzy, who ride hardboots almost exclusively. Erik even uses ski boots himself.

[marz]

STOP thinking about driving the knee toward the front boot & jacking up the back heel. All that pressure at the tip engages the the nose and the tail pivots around it. That is why you're skidding on the heelside. As Jack suggests with the NORM focus on pressure along the whole edge & even towards the back heel at the end of the turn. Comfortable terrain is the key.

Start first by setting up a comfortable base from which to move. You need to align your stance so when you're standing on your board on the floor you're balanced, comfortable, & your Center of Mass is centered between your feet. NOT over the front foot, NOT over the back foot, but RIGHT in the middle.

Stand on a hardwood or kitchen floor in your ski boots at the angles & stance width you ride. How's it feel? Now take a small notepad or 3/8" stack of Post-its & put it under the toe of your front boot. You should feel better balanced & centered, it also allows your hips/shoulders to comfortably line up perpendicular to your feet. Experiment by removing /adding paper 'til it feels best.

Having Cateks makes it easier to transfer this to your binding set up. Set up the boot shaft alignment (cants) first, then play with canting the bindings. LESS is MORE !!

The goal is balanced/comfortable NOT twisted/contorted.

Now GO RIDE!! :D I dare you to have FUN with all the info spinning in your head!! :lol:

Seriously, it would only take an hour or so with a good instructor/coach to SHOW you all this good advice from everyone.

[spretetsky]

This is now (one year later or so) ;) heelside feels better now, but still chattery on bumps

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[eos4life]

Look at my pix in the aligment thread....

It's not the ski boats fault, although you should try to remove some material to soften them up.

You're counter-rotating.

K

Hi, K!

Where can I find those pics in the mentionned aligment thread?

Thanks!

[Jack M]

Major improvement over your first photos. Now you should think about keeping your shoulders more level to the slope. Try not to dip them into the turn so much. You can get very low without bending over, like Mr. Anderson here:

Remember, the snow should come up to you - you shouldn't have to reach, dip, or bend down for it.