Easiest board to learn on with Hard boots?

[Guest Gabe]

I just got a set of hard boots and TD2's, with a Donek Axis 177cm. I'm 6'2" 220 pounds. All I've done is soft booting before now.

I have discovered that this is a Radically different way to snow board.

Is there some way to make getting used to the new boots easier? See, I loved the boots.. but The board felt like a brick attached to my feet.

This is my theory.. tell me if its garbage. Is there a much easier board that I could put my TD's and Hard boots on, so that I could get used to the hard boots and step in's.. without getting hurt as much?

I'm not trying to sound like a whiner. My story is simple. I'm in love with the idea of flying down the hill on a stiffer snow board. I hate the lack of control I often feel in soft boots.. so I stepped up to a set up (hard boots and a Donek Axis) that I probably wasn't ready for. I'm trying to be more modest now... and stay in the hard boots but learn to use them in a more maneuverable board. (A cheap one at that)

I know I sound like a newbie. I fully recognize my ignorance.

My first day out on the Axis I did something I haven't done in four years, if ever.. I sent my feet and board - six feet into the air and dropped all of my 220 pounds on my tail bone, sending me to ski's for a week, with two inches of swelling and a huge black spot on my back. Having never ski-ed before, I had an incredibly good time on them. I was keeping up with the guys on race ski's by the third night. Skiing was rediculously easy to learn, and so much fun that I almost despise it. But I miss snow boarding badly. I want to go back this year and try to Master at least one piece of my new boarding equipment.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Still have your old softie board? Just mount your stuff up on that.

[Guest Gabe]

I only used Renters. But, if the TD's will mount to any kind of board.. then I can order just about anything. I was under the apparently mistaken impression that you had to have a certain kind of board to mount the step in's to.

[carvedog]

Often the transition to hard boots is made more difficult by the more forward facing angles of the narrower boards used for carving. Neils advice is spot on. A wider, soft board is great to get it figured out. When you start carving hard enough that you can feel the torsional flex of the board starting to make it go weeble wobble then mount up the Donek.

Good luck,

Jerry

[lonerider]

I only used Renters. But, if the TD's will mount to any kind of board.. then I can order just about anything. I was under the apparently mistaken impression that you had to have a certain kind of board to mount the step in's to.

Any snowboard with a 4x4 insert pattern will work, just alpine boards like the Donek fully utilize the power and response provided by the bindings. The high stance angles and stiff *hard*boots require you to do more "knee/hip" steering as opposed to toe/heel work. If you were a good snowboarder/skiier, you will figure out the body mechanics eventually... in the meantime I suggest padding up a little and taking it slow.

[Neuffy]

I really hope you had decent angles on your softboots before you switched...

I just switched last year, pretty much same setup. TD2s, Suzukas, and a Coiler AM177. (But I weighed only 170...omg was that board stiff...(Coiler 8.9 stiffness rating))

Before I switched, I had myself up to 40/35 on softboots, so I only moved up a few degrees switching to my hardboots. I'd suggest trying your softboots with higher angles first perhaps.

What angles did you try on the Axis? Low, high?

Also, assuming you've got a forward lean function on your boots, try the front boot more upright and the back more angled, as this seems to reduce overweighting of the front end initially. Overly high stance widths aren't great either. Without canting, you'll probably have to end up ultra-narrowly spaced.

[Hugh]

I think your setup sounds real good for learning to carve. Resist the urge to get back on a soft setup, while you commit to carving.

I would suggest finding a fellow carver that you can learn from. Don't reinvent the sport, follow the leader.

Read the two articles in the Tech Article section (main page of BOL)

Feel the Carve, Ride "The Norm" - Part I By Jack Michaud

The "Norm" - Part II By Jack Michaud

Please update your profile to include your location, then others can offer to meet this season with you and help you get that carving feeling.

Regards,

Hugh

[Guest Randy S.]

What angles are you running? If steep (greater than 55 degrees) you might try backing off the angles a bit and then slowly work your way back to steeper angles. IMO, you could even have toe/heel overhang as you learn. Once you start to carve lower and touch your toes to the snow (probably just a day or two), angle the bindings more.

Where are you located? Post that up here and I suspect you'll find a handful of folks willing to both help instruct and also loan you all manner of board to try out. If you are in/near Tahoe you are certainly welcome to try any of my quiver (I'd probably recommend you steer clear of the 210SG for a while). I'm not much of an instructor, but I'm happy to try. If you are up in OR, you should track down Doug Dryer at Bachelor for lessons. Or check out the Snowperformance Carve Camp in December. Sean Cassidy will be there and he's awesome at working with carvers of all abilities.

The Axis should be a great board to learn on. You got a size that should be appropriate for your size. Personally I prefer skinnier boards but I've been riding hard boots since the 80's so I'm the wrong one to compare to.

[Mike T]

The "gradually increase soft boot angles" approach did not work for me. I finally just set up my hardboots at angles in the high 50's and went for it, that worked a lot better.

My #1 suggestion for you would be to try and locate an experienced hardbooter to tag along with. That's what helped me go from mediocre to pretty dran good.

[Guest Gabe]

I go with a group that goes to Keystone in Colorado.

Last year, In the span of eight days, I saw three guys in a group riding in Hardboots. I was so excited to see someone else in hard boots that I probably made a fool of myself when I rode up to them. They were on their last day, and last run down, at the end of the night when I met them. I should have got their numbers or something.

Keystone may not be a popular spot for hard booters, but its where I'll have to be.

It would be great to meet up with someone and get some tips from someone with experience, even for one day.

[mirror70]

Step 1: Go to SES

Step 2: Go to ECES

Rinse, repeat

[dantheman0177]

Gabe,

I

tried hard booting for the first time last year at SES. If you can make it to one of the Expression Sessions, I highly recommend it. The people are awesome; so friendly and helpful that you can't help but improve and have fun doing it.

The set up I started on was a Burton Coil 173 with fairly soft old Burton bindings and a new pair of LeMans boots. In terms of binding angles, I just did what the BOL articles suggested and set them as low as possible without any overhang. Basically that meant 50/45. Considering I ride 18/6 on my soft boot setup, it was a bit trippy at first. Just go slow for starters until you start to feel the rythym.

Sean Cassidy suggested riding in Walk Mode to get used to the stiffness and I found that helped. Then once I stared to feel comfortable with the set up I played around with the foward lean, but basically I now ride 3 & 3, which is the middle setting, locked on both boots. That is, unless it is cruddy snow (which is most of the time in Australia) and then I just go back to walk mode.

At SES I demo'ed the Donek Axis and the Prior 4WD. Both awesome boards. The extra width certainly helps in the transition from soft to hard boots. I don't recommend going to a narrower board too early because it will require a much more aggressive angle on your bindings which is tough to get used to. I tried a Donek Freecarve and just couldn't quite get it at the time (though hoping to graduate this year).

Other than that, all I can suggest is to just ride and ride and eventually it all clicks and you don't even realise it.

Good luck.

Cheers

Dan

[Jim]

There is a learning progression to carving. Lessons were what got me past the frustration to carving the edge of the board. If you persevere the carve is addicting. Standard bail bindings allow for more flex which will eliminate some that stiff body to board sensation. Your current setup looks good to me. Oh, and get a pair of impact shorts.

[Mike T]

Sean Cassidy suggested riding in Walk Mode to get used to the stiffness and I found that helped. Then once I stared to feel comfortable with the set up I played around with the foward lean, but basically I now ride 3 & 3, which is the middle setting, locked on both boots. That is, unless it is cruddy snow (which is most of the time in Australia) and then I just go back to walk mode.

I too took Sean's suggestion on Walk Mode, at one of his camps. It'll definitely reduce or remove the "brick" feeling. I ride with my Raichles in "powder" mode now which is not locked in but doesn't allow as much backward flex as walk mode either. With Head boots, especially if they are Stratos Pro or S-LTD's, try 'em in walk mode, I bet they are still stiff enough.

[ak_rider]

I'll just add that investing in some padded shorts wouldn't be the worst thing to do. Burton makes a good pair, relatively cheap, and low bulk so no one can tell you're wearing them.

[lonerider]

I'll just add that investing in some padded shorts wouldn't be the worst thing to do. Burton makes a good pair, relatively cheap, and low bulk so no one can tell you're wearing them.

I like Skeletools's version much more than Burtons as the Burton one has actually minimal tailbone protection (at least the model I saw 2 years ago) (www.skeletools.com).

[astrokel]

http://www.skeletools.com

Stuff looks good... also try

http://crash-pads.com

Dianese also has some beautiful stuff but expensive and possibly hard to find unless you're in the LA area and can get to the Dianese store there.

Dianese protection...

[Guest Randy S.]

There's a Dainese store in LA? Where? I hate LA, but I have to go there sometimes and that might actually make the trip worthwhile.

Sitting here watching WSBK (motorcycles, not the station in Boston) from Magny Cours on Tivo makes me think of Dainese even more.

[BobD]

I definately find it easier to start the season on a shorter board. I'm sure it's easier to learn to carve on a shorter board, much easier to control, and much easier to skid out. I also think shorter boards, are easier to learn to pressure the edge on, as the turn duration is shorter. Longer boards are great once you have it down, as you get to hang out longer in the turn and refine your technique, but initially, you just want the basic body movements w/o subtlety. You will outgrow a shorter board,but it may make learning less frustrating.

BobD

[Guest Gabe]

Thanks for all the great suggestions guys.

[Gecko]

that may not go over well but is very helpful in the begining...go back to the bunny slope...it is a whole lot easier to unlearn to slide and learn to carve on a flatter slope than a steep one. Swallowing your pride for a day will stand you in better stead than flailing around on the slopes you used to ride/slide in softies for weeks

[NateW]

Seems to me that you have a pretty good intro setup... My guess is that you'll learn faster by sticking with it than by spending time on transitional equiment.

As a couple other people said, low angles might help with the learning curve - you're probably not going to be railing turns for a few days yet, so having some toe/heel overhang shouldn't hurt (but if you ever do feel the brakes come on mid-turn, increase your angles a bit). That should give you a little more leverage over the board, and make it feel a bit less brick-like.

You might also try soft boots on your Axis, but my you might have have to run really high angles to get the toe/heel overhang down to a manageable level. IMO hard boots on a freeride board takes more effort than hard boots on an all-mountain board like your Axis. I did that for a while myself but after I switched to a narrower board I only wished I'd switched sooner. My 21cm and 23cm boards feel much more responsive than my old 25cm freeride boards - I think it has a lot to do with have better leverage on the edge.

Did you spend some time on bunny hills? Swallow your pride for a day or two. :) Get used to making big easy skidding turns, then tighten them up over the course of the day until you've got a nice rhythm going. Then go back to making big turns, and try to skid less and carve more.

Having a buddy to help you get started couldn't hurt either.

Some random questions, just in case:

How wide is your stance?

How far is the center of your stance from the center of the board?

What angles are you running now?

[astrokel]

ORANGE COUNTY D-STORE

"The Store is located in Costa Mesa, at 1645 Superior Avenue; for any information please contact the D-Store Orange County at 949-650-2300."

If you go it would be great if you post a report on how it is and how extensive their line is. Especially interested in their snowboard outerwear line and how it looks/feels.

[Guest Zach Davis]

Take a look at the Donek, Incline series of boards... having recently made the transition to hard-boots, I've been whittling away at the waist width of the boards that I ride. My last ride had a 24.5cm waist, and this year, I'm going to be on a board with a 24cm waist.

The Donek, Inclines are good free-ride shapes, geared towards higher angles. I find that at 24.5cm, I can just start to really carve, without loosing the free-ride properties that I need and am used to.

Of course, I'm not obsessed with pencil-thin trenches on courdoroy... I picked up hard boots (AT) for their edge-control and versatility in mountaineering environments. Finding that they made everything from deep powder to corn more fun was just a happy by-product.

Zach