New alpine board ?

[DHN]

Hi, 

i wanted to ask for an advice. I m a good snowboarder but don’t ride as often as I used to. I grew up riding on Burton boards with my last and favorite being a factory prime 167 which was a long time ago. 
I m now 42 and bought 7y ago a Kessler 171. I never really liked it, it felt too soft and lacked some kick.
i was recently told it was a junior board and that I was too heavy for that board. I m not sure I should stick to Titanial with a Kessler 168 or swap to glass  ? 
I m not in the same shape as I used to but love carving and a responsive board. Thanks for the advice !

[Jack M]

It’s true that the K171 is a junior’s board. It’s also a GS shape which means it has no hook in the tail.  The K168 is closer to a slalom shape and is one of my favorite freecarving boards ever. Just get one!

[Hug Masso]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

It’s also a GS shape which means it has no hook in the tail

Jack why is it the case that slalomish boards have more width at the tail and the grand slalomish ones have less? To me it would seem that slalom—>faster changing edges—>easier to release tail—>less hook. And GS would be the contrary… so slalom should have more taper, or less hook.. but you are saying its not like that. Can you explain further? Thank you

[SunSurfer]

"felt too soft and lacked some kick."

Getting a board built for the appropriate weight range is key to getting appropriate flex.

Titanal wasn't around when your Burton was built. Titanal boards are built not to be as resonant with the rebound older all fibreglass boards had. On the other hand, a modern Titanal build will carve and edge hold better than your Burton ever would.

Another factor to consider is whether you want to "race" carve with turns uncompleted and pivots/jumps between turns, or freecarve with completed C's and clean transitions.

You are also getting older, so reflect on what your legs and core will let you do before fatigue sets in. A modern freecarve board will give you a longer day than a modern race board. Some builders are making good resonant boards without Titanal that may give you the rebound you got from the Burton.

Lots of good reports about the Kessler 168 Jack recommends.

[pokkis]

Best board for money is Contra from Coiler, if money is no object then i would go Oxess WXR.

 

[Hug Masso]

I have myself bought a Kessler 168, used 4-5 times now. The board gives a lot of planted feeling, secure and cuts ice and chop very nicely. If you put it high enough in edge it will turn very tight, or can make long sweep turns. I bought it new with its full warranty for 750€, discounted price, here in Spain. Free shipping. 
 

You can make the board pop but its not its first function. 

[Hug Masso]

On 2/24/2024 at 6:07 PM, Hug Masso said:

Jack why is it the case that slalomish boards have more width at the tail and the grand slalomish ones have less?

@Jack M sorry but still very intrigued by this information, if you have some time please explain me the basics of this idea. Thanks!

[Jack M]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:07 PM, Hug Masso said:

Jack why is it the case that slalomish boards have more width at the tail and the grand slalomish ones have less? To me it would seem that slalom—>faster changing edges—>easier to release tail—>less hook. And GS would be the contrary… so slalom should have more taper, or less hook.. but you are saying its not like that. Can you explain further? Thank you

Sorry for the delay.  In slalom you need to finish the turn more across the hill and control speed.  In GS you don't as much.  Longer sidecut in the tail is faster and accelerates more at the end of the turn.  It handles the greater forces that build up at the bottom of a high speed GS turn better.  A constant radius or variable radius sidecut that gets tighter in the tail will want to finish the turn across the hill more aggressively, but will not carve at higher speeds.

A longer mathematical explanation is here.

[Hug Masso]

thank you very much for your response. 

 

13 hours ago, Jack M said:

Longer sidecut in the tail is faster and accelerates more at the end of the turn.

Yes makes sense. I used the F2 WC SL 158 the other day first time and boy does it hooks you, it literally gives you a tremendous slap left and right, one of the ejected me on a high side. 

 

13 hours ago, Jack M said:

A constant radius or variable radius sidecut that gets tighter in the tail will want to finish the turn across the hill more aggressively, but will not carve at higher speeds.

Same sense. But freecarve boards have tight (or tightended) Sidecut rdius in the tail, and will however carve at higher speeds. For instance all the coiler contras have not much taper.

All in all understood.

And yes I am a mathematician (is it my university degreee) and have read the article. I get the general idea, although for me there are too many simplifications (which is probably needed) to draw applied conclusions, otherwise is is extremely complicated to model a physical exercise where an object, a generator (a human) and centripetal and gravity forces act, plus resistance and variable pitch. You must be some engineer, not focused on mathematical purity.

 

Thanks again for your time and knowledge

Edited February 28 by Hug Masso

[TimW]

On 2/24/2024 at 9:24 PM, SunSurfer said:

Titanal wasn't around when your Burton was built.

Titanal is old, Titanal skis were around in the '70s...

That is not snowboards off course, but Volkl Renntigers and Oxygen Protons had titanal, that was late 90's IIRC?

[Corey]

1 hour ago, Hug Masso said:

You must be some engineer, not focused on mathematical purity.

Guilty for so many on here!  

[ShortcutToMoncton]

2 hours ago, Hug Masso said:

Same sense. But freecarve boards have tight (or tightended) Sidecut rdius in the tail, and will however carve at higher speeds. For instance all the coiler contras have not much taper.

Not sure if this is what you are saying here in referring to taper, but the Contras have the largest sidecut off the tail…the “hook” is somewhere around the rear leg if you will. 

[Jack M]

You are most welcome.

4 hours ago, Hug Masso said:

But freecarve boards have tight (or tightended) Sidecut rdius in the tail, and will however carve at higher speeds. For instance all the coiler contras have not much taper.

Taper has nothing to do with it, only radius.  Your F2 158 will not carve at higher speeds.  Yeah you can go fast and drift long radius turns, but the board is not carving.  The sidecut is actually causing drag then, which is part of why GS boards are faster than SL and Freecarve boards.

4 hours ago, Hug Masso said:

You must be some engineer, not focused on mathematical purity.

I have a bachelors in Mechanical Engineering and a Master's in Computer Science.  I don't practice ME anymore except here.

A Math major once told me Engineers take "math for dummies", lol.

4 hours ago, TimW said:

Volkl Renntigers and Oxygen Protons had titanal, that was late 90's IIRC?

That is also my recollection.  I think F2 had Titanal then too.  I believe the first snowboard to use it was the Checker Pig G6 in 1990.

[pow4ever]

this is one of my favorite XKCD strip

i used to be a purity fan boy but now i see it as reverse: a sociologist/generalist are sometime very valuable).

if you have not seen it - you are one of the lucky 10k - my 2nd favorite

[Hug Masso]

5 hours ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Contras have the largest sidecut off the tail

Oh I didnt know that, thanks. I think my f2 wc has tighter radius at the tail, and even tighter at the nose, or am I wrong? Is it the case that some boards have a sidecut pattern in nose-center-tail of the type 10-12-11, while others have a crescent pattern of the type 10-11-12? Am I right?

[Hug Masso]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Taper has nothing to do with it, only radius.  Your F2 158 will not carve at higher speeds.

Yes indeed. If carving it will just hook and impede going fast unless straight lining. To be honest I thought it would be a funnier board, but my first day was hard. If I start to lean somewhere near the fall line it won’t let me lean further because it turns so fast it just “picks me up” and I find myself standing up again, and going perpendicular to the fall line. Do I need to dive in very early on the turn to be able to lean more? Somewhere in this forum someone mentioned “ride a slalom board as if it was a freecarve board”… how one does that?

 

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Engineers take "math for dummies"

Dont think so, just not focused on fundamental logic and demonstrations, but more on the applied side. Not for dummies in any case. 
 

Thank you!

[ShortcutToMoncton]

11 hours ago, Hug Masso said:

Oh I didnt know that, thanks. I think my f2 wc has tighter radius at the tail, and even tighter at the nose, or am I wrong? Is it the case that some boards have a sidecut pattern in nose-center-tail of the type 10-12-11, while others have a crescent pattern of the type 10-11-12? Am I right?

I think the approach to sidecut has varied by company and type of board over the past 20 years (roughly since blended sidecuts arrived). And of course it’s not just strictly the sidecut that makes a board feel and behave differently but also the specific flex pattern for boards, which has also varied.

Compared to the overall blended sidecut (e.g. 12m), Contra has roughly a longer-tightest-tight-longest sidecut profile from nose to front foot to rear foot to tail. 

[Jack M]

20 hours ago, Hug Masso said:

To be honest I thought it would be a funnier board, but my first day was hard. If I start to lean somewhere near the fall line it won’t let me lean further because it turns so fast it just “picks me up” and I find myself standing up again, and going perpendicular to the fall line.

Yes, this happens if you're going fast at carve entry.  Perfectly normal.  SL racers rarely layout carves.

20 hours ago, Hug Masso said:

Do I need to dive in very early on the turn to be able to lean more?

An earlier edge change and commitment will allow you to get lower, if that is the goal.  Cross-under technique is your friend here.

20 hours ago, Hug Masso said:

Somewhere in this forum someone mentioned “ride a slalom board as if it was a freecarve board”… how one does that?

You just do it, but with the understanding that things need to happen quicker on a SL board.  Turning your head and LOOKING into the turn and across the hill well in advance helps with this.

[Hug Masso]

6 hours ago, Jack M said:

Yes, this happens

Glad to see it is normal. Would like to lay a bit more for the fun of it, although I reckon in steep variable conditions remaining fairly upright gives me way more control over bumps. Or saying it in another way, when fully leaned I am more at the “mercy” of unexpected ice, batches, etc. 

 

6 hours ago, Jack M said:

Turning your head and LOOKING into the turn and across the hill well in advance helps with this.

That is something I always try to do but once on the heat of the stuff most always forgot. 

 

6 hours ago, Jack M said:

Cross-under technique

Noted. 
 

Each time you answer some question, 5 other related questions pop in my mind, so I’ll stop here and apply all the tricks and theory I already know but not applying yet.

Thank you so much! 

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, Hug Masso said:

That is something I always try to do but once on the heat of the stuff most always forgot.

Yes, I have to consciously make myself do it, 33 years in.  

[barryj]

On 2/28/2024 at 10:31 AM, Hug Masso said:

it turns so fast it just “picks me up” and I find myself standing up again, and going perpendicular to the fall line.

That's a great visual of what I love about my Donek  Rev 163 and  Coiler Angrry 160!    With SL like boards you can feel the board start pulling you the opposite direction to start the next turn even before your even out of the last turn!    With SL boards your "TPR" quota (aka: Turns Per Run) is set to Maximum!  So  you better be ready for fast and furious fun!   

SL boards are great for dodging meat popsicles!  I feel like Superman flying in and out of turns and traffic.  It's like I can dodge an oncoming Bullet when on these boards!  Of course what's creeping up behind us will always be our Kryptonite!   

And for something different, when I want to lay out turns I got a Swoard Dual  168 that really wants you to finish big sweeping turns and the more you lean into it the more it hooks up and  the longer turn it wants to make for you before you commit/fall into the next turn!    Just the opposite of my SL rides!

That's why most of us here have a Quiver (or Armada imc  ) for different styles of riding and/or for different conditions!

Learn to embrace your TPR quota on that f2 of yours!