testing some boards on ice

[bigwavedave]

For what it's worth...

 

We get enough hardcore ice in my neck of the woods that it’s nice to have a board (or 2) geared for ice in the quiver. Over the years, I have found that I prefer a softer flexing, small radius board on ice (to keep my speed down), but with a longer effective edge than a typical SL board for a smoother ride. I have 3 boards in my quiver that fit the bill.

 

Last spring, as the snow melted, we got down to a solid ice base for several days on our local hills. A good opportunity to compare my ice boards back-to-back. I compared the ride of a newly acquired K168 (EE 157.5cm) with my 166 extra rubber “ice” Contra (EE 151) and my 171 Thirst XC (156 EE, no rubber, no metal).

 

All were mounted with TD3 sidewinders. The Kessler and Coiler had a 3° side bevel, the Thirst 2°. As expected, they all had great edge hold on ice. The Kessler had the smoothest, mellowest ride. The 166 Contra felt comparably mellow, but was bounced around a bit more, I suspect due to its 6.5cm shorter effective edge. What surprised me was that the Thirst XC had noticeably more secure edge on the ice compared to the other boards and allowed me to push a bit harder into turns. Since the Contra sidecut was designed to emulate a Thirst sidecut, I had hoped it would have the same solid edge, but with the mellowness of rubber & metal. In my opinion, it felt more like a single sidecut Coiler than a Thirst. Out of these 3 boards, the K168 gave the most comfortable ride overall and would likely be my first choice on ice.  I suspect a Contra with the same EE as the K168 (a 173?) would compare well with the 168K. I do prefer how a near radial sidecut rides compared to a variable scr.

 

I also tried the Kesler with a Donek F-plate, AF plate and Geckos. The F-plate worked great on ice, but I hated how it felt when I got into softer snow. It stiffened the mid flex of the board so much that the tip and tail were over flexing in comparison and it ruined the harmony between flex and sidecut. For some reason I wasn’t comfortable on the AF plate and I ran out of time to further tweak that set-up. Everyone says it works great, so maybe I’ll try it again. The K168 worked well with the Geckos, but so far, I kinda prefer how it rides without a plate.

 

The 166 ice Contra handles ice pretty nicely, with or without Geckos. Geckos dampened uncomfortable feedback from rough ice and modified the flex/stiffness allowing me to push harder in turns, more like the Thirst. It pairs nicely with the Geckos and I might leave them on for when it’s rough, though it is a bit more turny, flexy fun without them.

 

While the Thirst had the best edge hold on ice, it was the least mellow, in that I could feel more feedback into my legs on rough ice. For young legs it might simply be more fatiguing, but my old knees complain. While the harshness disappears with Geckos mounted, so does the dynamic ride a Thirst normally delivers. It doesn’t benefit from a flex modifier and Geckos didn’t improve the edge hold either. Thirsts remain my favorite board when there’s more snow than ice on the hill.

 

The bottom line is I really don’t think I like riding on ice. But, sometimes that’s what you get when you show up, and it’s nice to be able to carve some turns rather than skid or go home.

[pow4ever]

thank you for the great write up!!
k168 for the East Coaster (especially earlier season) sounds like a chicken dinner.
I LOLed at "The bottom line is I really don’t think I like riding on ice".
as i get older; i can't chase snow like i once did so i had to plan and ride what mother nature brought trump my personal preference  

[barryj]

5 hours ago, bigwavedave said:

the K168 gave the most comfortable ride overall and would likely be my first choice on ice. 

Damn Straight!   Nuff Said!

[bigwavedave]

10 hours ago, barryj said:

Damn Straight!   Nuff Said!

Well, now I have to admit that I've been favoring the 166 ice Contra (10.5scr) with the Geckos so far this this season. It's early season, hard-packed, lumpy man-made snow with ice chunks  and limited, crowded terrain. It makes tighter turns and with the Geckos, it's smoother than the unplated Kessler. 

 

 

[bigwavedave]

I'd love to hear from the guys that have had Mark build a metal Thirst and how it compares.

[Jack M]

If you want even shorter sidecut than the K168, a leftover F2 World Cup 163 is a bargain that works great.  I haven't tried the Kessler 162.  My new Winterstick 163 is working great too, but that's custom and has significant delivery lead time.

 

On 12/8/2022 at 3:18 PM, bigwavedave said:

I also tried the Kesler with a Donek F-plate, AF plate and Geckos. The F-plate worked great on ice, but I hated how it felt when I got into softer snow. It stiffened the mid flex of the board so much that the tip and tail were over flexing in comparison and it ruined the harmony between flex and sidecut.

I tried my Allflex GS plate on my K168 and absolutely hated it for these same reasons.  Could not get off it fast enough.

[barryj]

1 minute ago, Jack M said:

a leftover F2 World Cup 163 is a bargain

Yean, I had also looked into that board after your positive F2 experience and would of loved to tried one but no UPM option shut my wallet down!    Sounds like a real screamer for the money!

[Jack M]

On 12/8/2022 at 11:06 PM, bigwavedave said:

Well, now I have to admit that I've been favoring the 166 ice Contra (10.5scr) with the Geckos so far this this season. It's early season, hard-packed, lumpy man-made snow with ice chunks  and limited, crowded terrain. It makes tighter turns and with the Geckos, it's smoother than the unplated Kessler.

Have you compared 166 Contra Gecko vs K168 Gecko?

[bigwavedave]

The  SG163 is also fantastic and can be found for a good price from racers. I think it's quite similar to the REV 163. Probably because they were developed with input/feedback from the Steamboat team, many of whom were already racing on SG's.

I picked up a used SG163 several years ago and loved it. I sold it to fund a new board and then regretted it because it was a few years before I found anything that measured up to it. 

I actually tried 3 used K162's that I never connected with. They were all custom built for women WC racers and apparently differed quite a bit from a stock 162. Way more turny than the SG 163. BTW, if you're looking at used K162's, one clue that a K162 is likely a custom women's board (and there are a lot of them out there) is the narrower waist (19-19.5 cm as opposed to the stock 20cm). 

On 12/19/2022 at 9:00 AM, Jack M said:

Have you compared 166 Contra Gecko vs K168 Gecko?

Yes! I couldn't remember if I tried Geckos back-to-back (K168 vs C166) last spring , so I just did it the other day. This was on snow groomed wet and frozen into a somewhat uneven surface, not quite ice, but rough & hard enough to want a buffer under my feet. 

Did 2 runs on the K168, then transferred the Geckos to the Contra 166. The difference between the two rides was very apparent when ridden back-to-back. The Geckos made the K less compliant enough that it was more work to keep turns tight. I never really loved varible sidecuts and this made it worse for me. I liked how the K rode best without a plate.

I love how the Contra, (mid-tight, Thirst-like) sidecut makes a nice round, complete turn. It makes it easy to control speed while carving on challenging conditions without needing to do speed checks. Geckos on a Contra is a great combo*. I think it makes the sidecut work better, plus you get the extra buffering on rough terrain.

Later, I rode my F-plated (11-12scr) (EE 164.5) REV 175 and decided to sell the Kessler. Yup, it took 2 boards to force the K168 out of the line-up.

*at least on my 1½ yr old Contra model. Bruce said he had been redesigning his cores in order to work with the "mid-tight" (Contra) sidecut and that they were evolving with each new version. He felt pretty good about this one. The design may have evolved since then. The one I have seems to really like how the Geckos modify the flex.

[ThePeonsChamp]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:43 PM, bigwavedave said:

I'd love to hear from the guys that have had Mark build a metal Thirst and how it compares.

So I rode my 8RW today for the first half of the day and then rode my XC.m for the second half. The 8RW is at .278 I believe on Mark's stiffness scale while my XC.m is .304 so decently stiffer. I hate to say it but I feel like the XC.m absolutely crushed the firm and icy stuff while the 8RW didn't feel quite as sound underfoot. Now that could a technique thing as I am a bit more tentative on the 8RW since it's an overall longer board and the Texan invasion has begun down here for us in New Mexico but the XC.m really did feel more bulletproof which sucks because now I want a Tesi8(8RW with metal) . I believe Mark told me someone bought a 8RW and a tesi8 at the same time so they might have the best ability to compare. I'll do some more back to back riding when the snow is better but for now my hardpack icy snow destroyer is the XC.m

It took me a while to even bring out the 8RW this season as I've been in love with the XC.m it really is everything I've been wanting in a board. Damn do I love this XC.m. I wonder if Mark would make a 9SW with metal? Muahahahaaha

Edited December 21, 2022 by ThePeonsChamp

[Kneel]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:43 PM, bigwavedave said:

I'd love to hear from the guys that have had Mark build a metal Thirst and how it compares.

@bigwavedaveHe’s on me to write a proper review, not to mention I’m on my way back to the east coast tomorrow, so I’ll keep this short.  The Super 7.3m is his masterpiece. It’s so good I told @Carvin' Marvin that I was going to throw every other board in the garbage, to which he gratefully offered to dispose of my other Thirsts, then to his dismay I informed him his feet were on backwards, so I’m keeping them just in case. But I digress.

In a nutshell, its everything you would expect from Mark.  Buttery relaxed ride, tilt her over and she predictably goes.  However , she’s got a dark side.  You can curb stomp her, ride the tail, spit in her mouth, this board will turn wherever you initiate the edge and rocket you out of the turn to dig for more. And its SILENT. Not damp. It’s quite. No chatter. Nothing. It just holds the edge till you release it. Even with his stock tune I have no reason to believe it won’t be an ibex in northeast bulletproof. However…I’ll never find out as I’m leaving it out here in my CO lair. I’ve already hinted at a 166 XCSFm that will stay in the Dirty Jerz, but you know how he is. He probably already has the magical formula in his diabolical little mind, but he’s playing hard to get. 

[Kneel]

27 minutes ago, ThePeonsChamp said:

So I rode my 8RW today for the first half of the day and then rode my XC.m for the second half. The 8RW is at .278 I believe on Mark's stiffness scale while my XC.m is .304 so decently stiffer. I hate to say it but I feel like the XC.m absolutely crushed the firm and icy stuff while the 8RW didn't feel quite as sound underfoot. Now that could a technique thing as I am a bit more tentative on the 8RW since it's an overall longer board and the Texan invasion has begun down here for us in New Mexico but the XC.m really did feel more bulletproof which sucks because now I want a Tesi8(8RW with metal) . I believe Mark told me someone bought a 8RW and a tesi8 at the same time so they might have the best ability to compare. I'll do some more back to back riding when the snow is better but for now my hardpack icy snow destroyer is the XC.m

It took me a while to even bring out the 8RW this season as I've been in love with the XC.m it really is everything I've been wanting in a board. Damn do I love this XC.m. I wonder if Mark would make a 9SW with metal? Muahahahaaha

Honestly, when it’s soft, I’ll take the 8RW every time. It’s a long board that thinks she’s short. Lean over a little more.

[bigwavedave]

I have a non-metal XC and it is the Thirst I prefer to ride on ice. I think mainly because the scr is tight enough to keep my speed within my comfort level for riding ice while still carving and a long enough EE to smooth out the ride. I'd like to see an XC (maybe metal &rubber) with a modified core tuned to work with something like a Gecko style vibration buffering plate. 

A metal 9sw?   

I don't get on my 8rw until the snow is soft enough to sink my edge at least 1 inch, so that the whole edge is engaged. Any day I get to ride the 8rw is a really good day.

12 minutes ago, Kneel said:

XCSFm like the way you're thinking

[Kneel]

3 minutes ago, bigwavedave said:

I have a non-metal XC and it is the Thirst I prefer to ride on ice. I think mainly because the scr is tight enough to keep my speed within my comfort level for riding ice while still carving and a long enough EE to smooth out the ride. I'd like to see an XC (maybe metal &rubber) with a modified core tuned to work with something like a Gecko style vibration buffering plate. 

A metal 9sw?   

I don't get on my 8rw until the snow is soft enough to sink my edge at least 1 inch, so that the whole edge is engaged. Any day I get to ride the 8rw is a really good day.

I’ll have to dig out the geckos and try them on my XC. I’ve had them on the SF, but it felt a little dirty. Stretch out the ee of the SF just in the tail section, sprinkle in some titanal and his magical thirst pixie dust. Am I right?!? I would slay Stratton after a typical 40 and raining turns to 0 and treacherous. 

[ThePeonsChamp]

35 minutes ago, Kneel said:

@bigwavedaveHe’s on me to write a proper review, not to mention I’m on my way back to the east coast tomorrow, so I’ll keep this short.  The Super 7.3m is his masterpiece. It’s so good I told @Carvin' Marvin that I was going to throw every other board in the garbage, to which he gratefully offered to dispose of my other Thirsts, then to his dismay I informed him his feet were on backwards, so I’m keeping them just in case. But I digress.

In a nutshell, its everything you would expect from Mark.  Buttery relaxed ride, tilt her over and she predictably goes.  However , she’s got a dark side.  You can curb stomp her, ride the tail, spit in her mouth, this board will turn wherever you initiate the edge and rocket you out of the turn to dig for more. And its SILENT. Not damp. It’s quite. No chatter. Nothing. It just holds the edge till you release it. Even with his stock tune I have no reason to believe it won’t be an ibex in northeast bulletproof. However…I’ll never find out as I’m leaving it out here in my CO lair. I’ve already hinted at a 166 XCSFm that will stay in the Dirty Jerz, but you know how he is. He probably already has the magical formula in his diabolical little mind, but he’s playing hard to get. 

Damn that sounds like an absolute blast! Where do you live again.... I uhh might need to check it for quality control *cough* mhm. hehe I'd love to try that thing but then again you know I'd be on the phone with Mark again lol. 

[big mario]

I love my 8Rw. Took it out on day one and haven't looked back. Only other board I've been on this season is my SF. Hit some wind burnished manmade the other day and it stayed hooked up despite me riding my lazy Colorado hero snow style. Crazy how a board that sounds as loud as a thirst does can hold a edge as well as it does, even  with bad technique

Mario

[bigwavedave]

1 minute ago, Kneel said:

I’ll have to dig out the geckos and try them on my XC. I’ve had them on the SF, but it felt a little dirty. Stretch out the ee of the SF just in the tail section, sprinkle in some titanal and his magical thirst pixie dust. Am I right?!? I would slay Stratton after a typical 40 and raining turns to 0 and treacherous. 

I'm thinking he would have to modify his core design to work with the Geckos so that they don't change the "Thirst" ride. I'm more interested in the Gecko buffering effect of uncomfortable vibration and bumps on hard surfaces than any possible improvement of edge hold, since Thirsts already have that.

But, I think you should give it a try in the name of science.

[Kneel]

20 minutes ago, ThePeonsChamp said:

Damn that sounds like an absolute blast! Where do you live again.... I uhh might need to check it for quality control *cough* mhm. hehe I'd love to try that thing but then again you know I'd be on the phone with Mark again lol. 

Looks like your feet are on backwards too. You’re gonna make the call anyway. Just get it over with. 

[bigwavedave]

On 12/20/2022 at 8:03 PM, Kneel said:

I’ll have to dig out the geckos and try them on my XC.

I tried the Geckos on my XC again, but with bumpers removed* from the end fingers, making for a smaller footprint with only the middle 3 bumpers contacting the board (like a Gecko Stealth). Tried it symmetrical at first then slightly asym. This might be the way to go. I rode it back-to-back with and without the Geckos and barely noticed a difference in how the board handled. Didn't seem to modify the flex and I could still tighten up my turns and get a pop out of turns. Still had the desired muting of bumps and ruts.

Need to see how it rides on actual ice.

Still thinking about the metal version between the SF and XC.

*The idea to simply remove a bumper was Mark's. I just took it a step further and removed 4.

[ThePeonsChamp]

2 hours ago, bigwavedave said:

Tried it symmetrical at first then slightly asym.

I'll try this on my XC.m. Thanks for the idea. I love my geckos on my GS boards. Did you like it slightly asym more?

[bigwavedave]

The slightly asym seemed better. Toe-side front bumper just forward/under the toe. Heel-side rear bumper just aft/under the heel. I'd be tempted to cut those bumperless fingers off, but since Geckos are no longer available (and they were expensive) I'm tempted to make my own 3 toed version using G10 or 4 mm carbon plate and save the 5 fingered Geckos for boards that benefit from a little flex modification and edge pressure distribution.

I'm using TD3 SW with low profile BP cant discs. Mounted on the Geckos I have virtually the same stack height as standard td3sw's.

[nextcarve]

1 hour ago, bigwavedave said:

... but since Geckos are no longer available (and they were expensive) ...

Virus Isolator plates may be an alternative:
https://shop.virus-snowsports.com/collections/plates

[Kneel]

5 hours ago, bigwavedave said:

I tried the Geckos on my XC again, but with bumpers removed from the end fingers, making for a smaller footprint with only the middle 3 bumpers contacting the board (like a Gecko Stealth). Tried it symmetrical at first then slightly asym. This might be the way to go. I rode it back-to-back with and without the Geckos and barely noticed a difference in how the board handled. Didn't seem to modify the flex and I could still tighten up my turns and get a pop out of turns. Still had the desired muting of bumps and ruts.

Need to see how it rides on actual ice.

Still thinking about the metal version between the SF and XC.

Being a "full figured" rider, I'm a little concerned about being on only 3 bumpers per side.  I've broken geckos already.  I think there is a post with a picture somewhere.  However, I might be tempted to drill another hole through the P in "APEX"  and fit a 4th bumper to disperse the pressure.  4 might support the binding heel and to enough without affecting the ride...

The KK.

[bigwavedave]

If I remember, the long finger broke where it flexed under the end of your F2 binding.

[bigwavedave]

Thanks nextcarve, I've considered the Virus Isolators. I think I'd still have to modify them to get the smaller footprint I seek.

...and the discussion continued here.....