Carving progression and critique my riding

[slapos]

Right, where do I start.

I wanted to share with a you a bit of story of my own. I started hardbooting 5 years ago, after spending almost 15 years in softboots on various boards. Youtube opened my eyes to hardboot snowboarding, extreme carving and race style carving. 

I have bought my first set and after many struggles the riding looked like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW29d01CTvM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rfmFzLrukc

Many issues in the ride (even if I though otherwise at the time ;)). My father has spent a lot of time filming me, so I could pick on mistakes, compare to Sigi Grabner ride with me clip and further down the line the asian clips of Kohei and rest of the crew out there. 

I kept riding, changing gear, changing set ups - angles, boots, boards. Found this forum (even though I haven not registered at the time) and found Beckmanns hardboot manifesto and Carving Almanach. Great read, if though did not mean much at the time.

First season has ended

2nd season :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahCpnIx4Ik8

I felt quite comfortable on blue runs, however when I went to steeps, my riding would fall apart completely. I would put the board on the edge, it would go immediately to mach3 and my confidence would go down the drain. Due to this I decided that the black runs and steeps are the only place where I can make progress. I have attended a few coaching sessions (highly recommended for everyone), testing sessions and sought out carving dudes from my region to ride with.

Next season has ended, I have bought a SG Full Race 163 which has been a board of breakthrough for me. Super damp, superb edge hold, didnt require mach3 to carve. Ideal for narrow, short slopes that I have around me. Board that makes you feel safe

Start of 3rd season:

Early in the season I have attended a coaching week on the gates with part of polish national team juniors. I always thought that gates are of no interest to me and they have been at first a humbling experience. next I realized that riding gates lets you control your board as it forces you to turn and your ride much better then just freecarving, where you let the board carry you a little bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPryB2NWAEs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piPT-aMKAwI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAflIp1kmpI

Again changing boards in the season, little tinkering with set up - playing with stance, gilmour bias etc.

End of season 3

Season 4

Attended another coaching sessions, including one with Sigi Grabner and SG pro team. Super experience and great time, even if conditions at the time have been slush unfortunately.

tinkered with stance a little more, following advice from Sigi or Justin Rieter to go from 52 cm to 50 cm and see what happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkWCg59wiiw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESKoekjHsSk

Fun fact: even though the riding isnt super spectacular, this was filmed by Haruhito Mori, who filmed all the Installer carving movie series

a bit of summary clip that a friend of made (i think your are familiar with his channel on youtube - siekufilms, as he makes a lot of remixes of vids available on the web)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyjohK-Gk5I

Season 5

Changed the boots to mountain slope 951, even though I have been happy with UPZ RC10. Not sure how many of you get the same feeling, that you need to keep looking for better things then you currently own, as you never know if there is something performing a little better out there. 

MS 951 felt immediately better then my UPZ, so I sold them and kept riding.

No coaching sessions this time, just riding for myself.

here is some fresh vids from couple weeks back:

SG 163 full carve with FG plate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PbUiS7Glf4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Mam62deeQ

Goltes RaceCarve 180 with Apex X plate bolted on top

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af6Xi-kqNYU

Now the fun part for all of you:

What can i do still to be a better rider? 

Constructive feedback appreciated.

Summary on carving progression, or at least the most important points that helped me make progress:

- ride with different coaches if you can - every coach sees different perspective and will give you different advice, which ultimately will lead to improvement of your carving skills

- dont shy away from the steeps if your ride falls apart there. Keep riding them (safely please) as most likely this the only place where you can learn to control your speed with the shape of the curve. If you master this - no slope will be too steep for you. I love riding steeps - Best thing in the world.

- keep changing gear every now and then. Helps you get perspective. 

- Get yourself a long GS and short SL board. Change what your ride every half a day. Difference in riding will be apparent very quickly and you will see what you get away with on SL and on GS.

- FILM yourself. You cant see yourself while you ride. While you can lie to yourself about your position and skill you cannot to lie to the camera. Compare yourself with creme de la creme out there, watch the films frame by frame to mark the difference in position. If your are a geek that is.

- Plates - dont need plates during the carving progression. Plates imho should only be used when you already how to find the edge without plate first.

- my fav quote from a friend of mine " your "equipment"(insert here boots, board, bindings etc) hinders your riding least. Its all about technique first, gear comes in secondary. Dont get me wrong, proper gear helps, but 80% (if not more) of your riding comes out of proper technique.

- ride gates if you can - massive learning experience

hope your enjoyed the read!

Regards from across the pond

Lukasz

Edited March 1, 2019 by slapos

[SunSurfer]

You carve pretty well, certainly well enough to attract the attention of people you pass.

In the video sequence the turns gradually get tighter and the speed control better as the years pass. Your arms still wave about, and touch down for balance more than might happen if your balance over your edge was more secure. Does it feel at times as if you fall into your turns, rather than smoothly remaining balanced over the edge as the board angle changes? When you get off balance coming into your heelside the arm on that side tends to the rear of the board and you lose your forward facing upper body position.

How does the edge feel under your feet? Are you happy with the steadiness with which the edge holds on both sides? That's something subtle that a video doesn't necessarily show well.

How would you answer the question you have posed? 

----------

Like you I watch slow motion YouTube videos for clues and guidance. Different boards expose different faults in my riding and have taught me different things.

The little video that I have of my own riding lets me see how others see me. A recent video confirmed that I was letting my heelside arm drift back a little and that I should work more on getting my shoulders square across the board in heelside. A more experienced rider I rode with (Larry Castruita) had offered that critique and I had not believed him until I saw it for myself.

I ride gates in NASTAR at Snowmass when I am able to visit the USA for the same reason you do, it forces me to make turns when I may not be ready to do so. Gradually falling NASTAR handicaps provide an objective measure of progress.

My goal is a smooth, balanced, controlled and aesthetic style. Different riders, different goals. 

What is your goal?

Edited March 1, 2019 by SunSurfer

[slapos]

Hi Sunsurfer,

Answering your questions :

- it does feel like sometimes I fall into the turn. I never had an out of control feeling though. On backside heel i think it feels a little bit more like falling then front side.

- rear arm staying in the back - this is something that Sigi has told me to achieve, as he told me I am too much in plus position on the backside and rotate into the turn too much. The advice I got from him was to keep in plus position of front side (looking from above the boarded, the hips will make a plus sign with the board) while in back side the hips need to make minus sign with the board while looking from above. the ultimate position that I am aiming for is this (thanks @nevingalmarini):

my position:

similar but not quite there yet - left shoulder and arm could be more towards the board. Knees more bent. the angle of the pictures is slightly different but telling me enough

- stability on both edges feel about the same, with a touch more stability and power on backside.

The goal for myself - Race style carving. 

- attracting peeps attention - people do ask what is this and why I ride in ski boots. Very true. Nevertheless I had converted 2 people to hardboots this year

cheers

Lukasz

Edited March 1, 2019 by slapos

[SunSurfer]

The body position relative to the board on heel side is an area where there are at least  2 distinct approaches. Most of the racers I see in videos use the style that SG describes and Nevin G uses. Vic Wild and Ester Ledecka are a little more + on heelside than many.

Others advocate and ride in the + position both toe and heelside for freecarving. This is the approach I prefer. Both ways can be used to carve effectively. 

And the extreme carvers are different again, + on heelside and - on toeside.

Edited March 2, 2019 by SunSurfer

[Aracan]

I do (or at least try to do) + on heelside and – on toeside for carving, no matter how low I go.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Aracan

[Beckmann AG]

22 hours ago, slapos said:

What can i do still to be a better rider? 

The answer to that question may not be in keeping with this:

20 hours ago, slapos said:

The goal for myself - Race style carving. 

You more or less look the part, which isn't surprising, as your means to 'better' riding is to emulate the outward appearance of riders you appreciate.

If you want to be a better rider, you have to figure out where/how/if your emulative style is in conflict with how the board might best work on the snow.

For instance:

At the area of intersection of each new turn, you go up, and then go down. Sort of difficult to bend a board in that area where resistance (in the form of your body mass/inertia) is moving away from the working edge.

While that mass is moving up, then down, time goes on, during which you're covering ground. The steeper the terrain, and the faster your rate of travel, the more real estate is covered before the board starts to turn. This means you'll have to get much more done later in the turn. Sooner or later, you may find you haven't enough strength, or the surface won't hold, and the turn will come apart.

So what you could do, is try to maintain your chosen style, and at the same time, minimize the highs and lows of pressure as felt beneath your feet from one turn to the next.

If you find any success with that task, apply the same reasoning to the rate of tilt of the board with regard to the surface.

Worth noting that most competitive riders may not ride as they do because it's the best way to use a snowboard. Rather, it's the best way for them to get the job done, given their training history, etc. It's very risky for an established athlete to try to alter their game, given the amount of time necessary for re/unlearning, and the potential cost associated with that task.

Safer bet is to copy what the winners do, and hope to do it better still.

22 hours ago, slapos said:

FILM yourself. You cant see yourself while you ride. While you can lie to yourself about your position and skill you cannot to lie to the camera. Compare yourself with creme de la creme out there, watch the films frame by frame to mark the difference in position. If your are a geek that is.

You can, however, lie to yourself about what the camera is trying to tell you. The easiest lie is to assign improper value to the elements you see in the riding of other athletes, and then 'see' those elements in your own riding as a means of validation.

 This, in place of recognizing the cues of cause and effect.

E.g., Every rapid movement/twitch of a hand is the recording of a 'mistake' made at the ground level. If you see the same movement in each successive turn on a given edge, you can assume there's something in the mechanism that could stand refinement.

Similarly, the bend of the arms and wrists will indicate the necessary level of stabilizing tension, which again is reflective of dissonance closer to the snow.

As you become more effective with your feet, ankles and knees, you should notice a progressive reduction of tension through your upper extremities.

This, without actually trying to relax. Or to actively maintain a 'quiet upper body'. (Looking the part isn't the same thing as being the part).

And you should then notice an enhanced ability to ride through rougher terrain, as the action of the board is not affecting the movement of your core, nor is the movement of your core affecting the action of the board.

Unless you selectively choose otherwise.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Beckmann AG
recovered things lost in the flood.

[Corey]

9 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

E.g., Every rapid movement/twitch of a hand is the recording of a 'mistake' made at the ground level. If you see the same movement in each successive turn on a given edge, you can assume there's something in the mechanism that could stand refinement.

Nice, I love this! Noted for future use. 

[daveo]

10 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

The answer to that question may not be in keeping with this:

You more or less look the part, which isn't surprising, as your means to 'better' riding is to emulate the outward appearance of riders you appreciate.

If you want to be a better rider, you have to figure out where/how/if your emulative style is in conflict with how the board might best work on the snow.

For instance:

At the area of intersection of each new turn, you go up, and then go down. Sort of difficult to bend a board in that area where resistance (in the form of your body mass/inertia) is moving away from the working edge.

While that mass is moving up, then down, time goes on, during which you're covering ground. The steeper the terrain, and the faster your rate of travel, the more real estate is covered before the board starts to turn. This means you'll have to get much more done later in the turn. Sooner or later, you may find you haven't enough strength, or the surface won't hold, and the turn will come apart.

So what you could do, is try to maintain your chosen style, and at the same time, minimize the highs and lows of pressure as felt beneath your feet from one turn to the next.

If you find any success with that task, apply the same reasoning to the rate of tilt of the board with regard to the surface.

Worth noting that most competitive riders may not ride as they do because it's the best way to use a snowboard. Rather, it's the best way for them to get the job done, given their training history, etc. It's very risky for an established athlete to try to alter their game, given the amount of time necessary for re/unlearning, and the potential cost associated with that task.

Safer bet is to copy what the winners do, and hope to do it better still.

You can, however, lie to yourself about what the camera is trying to tell you. The easiest lie is to assign improper value to the elements you see in the riding of other athletes, and then 'see' those elements in your own riding as a means of validation.

 This, in place of recognizing the cues of cause and effect.

E.g., Every rapid movement/twitch of a hand is the recording of a 'mistake' made at the ground level. If you see the same movement in each successive turn on a given edge, you can assume there's something in the mechanism that could stand refinement.

Similarly, the bend of the arms and wrists will indicate the necessary level of stabilizing tension, which again is reflective of dissonance closer to the snow.

As you become more effective with your feet, ankles and knees, you should notice a progressive reduction of tension through your upper extremities.

This, without actually trying to relax. Or to actively maintain a 'quiet upper body'. (Looking the part isn't the same thing as being the part).

And you should then notice an enhanced ability to ride through rougher terrain, as the action of the board is not affecting the movement of your core, nor is the movement of your core affecting the action of the board.

Unless you selectively choose otherwise.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Good info. Well said.

Can help all carvers improve I think.

Edited March 2, 2019 by daveo

[pow4ever]

thank you Lukasz for putting this together and sharing!
Keep this up and you will go far 
Very nice riding (love the dynamics-ness) and really amazing progress in just 5 short seasons.

took me way too long and way much $$$ to figure this part out:

On 3/1/2019 at 1:52 AM, slapos said:

my fav quote from a friend of mine " your "equipment"(insert here boots, board, bindings etc) hinders your riding least. Its all about technique first, gear comes in secondary. Dont get me wrong, proper gear helps, but 80% (if not more) of your riding comes out of proper technique.

I am not qualify to give pointer but I do recognized https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Mam62deeQ

slow-mo(25% speed) between 10-11 seconds.  That air pop transition, the cow-boy hand.  It's something I am working on myself this season.

What seems to be working for me:
Keeping more consistent edge pressure through out the carve (less unexpected pop, now I pop mostly on demand)
shorten the speed of edge transition by incorporate more "exaggerate" push/pull (increase the tempo for edge change also help with steep).
Timing of the edge transition seems to have tiny ephemeral/sweet spot moment:
I can't quite describe it... when we are in a carve; pressuring the edge, it's "safe/green zone", the board is decamber and we are on rail. 
When that build up energy is release quickly(in steep where we have less time to release it gradually) when we switch from front/back or back/front now we are in the "danger zone"
Hence the instability: pop-up, noisy upper body. 
Harness/finding that "sweet spot" to use the release energy to help us perform edge transition quicker seems to smooth out the roughness for me.
Minimize time in the "danger zone"; extend time in the "safe zone" make a happy carver.

My humble 2 cents.

 

[pauleleven]

Season 5, videos on SG163, I see a lot of Sigi in you

When I was talking with Sigi and Justin, the general sense is minus on heel, plus on toe, but Sigi added that he enters heel on minus and exit on plus(both within 10 degrees from binding angle), transition is silent, no twisting.

I'm a strong advocate for minus heel, it is immensely powerful and stable, converted many softboot friends into speed-carvers, also essential for race style.

My next obstacle will be the steeps......

[daveo]

15 minutes ago, pauleleven said:

My next obstacle will be the steeps......

How are you gonna do steeps on your Burton Nug 142?

[Corey]

2 hours ago, daveo said:

How are you gonna do steeps on your Burton Nug 142?

Did you guys know that there are PMs? They're Private Messages. Really cool for non-sequitur conversations between two people. 

[slapos]

On 3/2/2019 at 5:37 AM, Beckmann AG said:

 

If you want to be a better rider, you have to figure out where/how/if your emulative style is in conflict with how the board might best work on the snow.

 

 

finding your own style isnt easy. For now I enjoy mostly race style - where i ride most we usually have man made bulletproof snow. For now it seems to work best and most effective. 

On 3/2/2019 at 5:37 AM, Beckmann AG said:

 

Worth noting that most competitive riders may not ride as they do because it's the best way to use a snowboard. Rather, it's the best way for them to get the job done, given their training history, etc. It's very risky for an established athlete to try to alter their game, given the amount of time necessary for re/unlearning, and the potential cost associated with that task.

 

very true - not always applicable to the freecarve.

 

On 3/2/2019 at 5:37 AM, Beckmann AG said:

 

At the area of intersection of each new turn, you go up, and then go down. Sort of difficult to bend a board in that area where resistance (in the form of your body mass/inertia) is moving away from the working edge.

While that mass is moving up, then down, time goes on, during which you're covering ground. The steeper the terrain, and the faster your rate of travel, the more real estate is covered before the board starts to turn. This means you'll have to get much more done later in the turn. Sooner or later, you may find you haven't enough strength, or the surface won't hold, and the turn will come apart.

 

 

this comes out purely out of laziness from my side. I noticed that on narrow steep slopes I am able to be much quicker due to quickly approaching forest factor. Thats why I also said that riding gates helps tremendously

thanks @Beckmann AGfor sharing your thoughts. As always reading your posts for the first time makes me think this

 

 

7 hours ago, pow4ever said:

 

slow-mo(25% speed) between 10-11 seconds.  That air pop transition, the cow-boy hand.  It's something I am working on myself this season.

 

I am trying to fight this, I have a ton of stop frames where I have my hand in the cowboy salute. Seems like my hand is disconnected from the rest of my body...

Need to work on the POP timing too.

I have a Donek MK on the way. wonder if thats gonna help

cheers guys for chiming in. All feedback appreciated

Edited March 4, 2019 by slapos

[Aracan]

To be frank, in that video and yours the hands are often were I try not to have them. For the backside it helps to grab the front boot.

[slapos]

2 hours ago, Aracan said:

To be frank, in that video and yours the hands are often were I try not to have them. For the backside it helps to grab the front boot.

Can you be more specific? or you refer to the fact that I have the hands where you would not have them all the time? 

Grabbing the front boot on the backside will lead to plus position, which is something that I do not want to currently go back to. Same for your clue for minus in the frontside, which will prevent from having the hip inside of the frontside turn.

Edited March 4, 2019 by slapos

[Aracan]

3 hours ago, slapos said:

Grabbing the front boot on the backside will lead to plus position, which is something that I do not want to currently go back to.

Exactly. However, you have a much better image of where you want to be, and I suspect you are more ambitious as a rider than I am. I speak strictly as a freecarver. For my part, I am content with the +/- positions for back and frontside respectively. Take a look at 0:15 in this vid of yours:

It may well be that you are on the way to a very dynamic and powerful technique. The here and now looks like you have to do a lot of work in very little time, which I avoid by assuming the + position - maybe at the cost of further development.

[daveo]

7 hours ago, Corey said:

Did you guys know that there are PMs? They're Private Messages. Really cool for non-sequitur conversations between two people. 

My inbox was full a couple of days ago, had to do a purge. You really think I want @pauleleven's  cluttering it further?

Will return to posts about physics of turning shortly. Accept my apologies. 

[pow4ever]

6 hours ago, slapos said:

this comes out purely out of laziness from my side. I noticed that on narrow steep slopes I am able to be much quicker due to quickly approaching forest factor. Thats why I also said that riding gates helps tremendously

Same "problem" here....  I know I can make tighter/quick turn but unless I have to; my intrinsic laziness/non-aggressive nature tend to take over and just use as much room as possible. 
Maybe subconsciously I am trying preserved energy or getting my money's worth in turn of carve real-estate usage lol...
 
Here is my naive way of trying to address it:
I don't race gate but when I do ride by myself.  (it help when the run is empty and no other carvers)
I will carve down a trail making "normal turn". 
Next run I will follow the same line but trying to make tighter turn
Rinse and repeat until something give:  leg, stalled, chatter out and etc.

Still unable to call on the power of grayskull on-demand consistently; but the few occasion when "it" does show up oh mama what fun....
It does take a huge physical toll on the body; now that i think about it more -- it's easier to do so earlier in the day.

our mind(at least my) seems to put limitation on things initially until there is something we can use it as reference.

BTW what is +(plus) -(minus) position in here context?  Seems interesting way to describe movement. 

In my mind:
Racer style tend to ride more upright/dynamic, more noisy upper body since constantly pushing the limit.  Have that "openness" to prepare for the unexpected isn't necessary a bad thing.
It's actually load of fun finding that edge of in-out of control.  Finding/making your own style, stealing/incorporate technique from everyone and make it your own is a blast the most fun part for me.

[pauleleven]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

My inbox was full a couple of days ago, had to do a purge. You really think I want @pauleleven's  cluttering it further?

Ouch mein daveo, ouch...

7 minutes ago, pow4ever said:

BTW what is +(plus) -(minus) position in here context?  Seems interesting way to describe movement. 

Think about the direction your chest is facing, say your bindings are at 55.

When your chest faces more than 55, you're in the plus position.

When your chest faces less than 55, you're in minus.

[slapos]

@pow4ever

plus position - when looked from above the board, hips, shoulders and the board make a plus sign

sigi will help here:

 

minus position - hips and board make a minus sign.

Nevin will help us here again:

 

shoulders, hips,knees ankles in one line

both positions allow you to put your hip inside of the turn.

thanks

Edited March 4, 2019 by slapos

[pow4ever]

Thank you Paul and Lukasz for the explanation on +/- 
TIL.  

In network speaking:  "Bandwidth expands to fit the waste available" (Voidmstr's law)"
Which seems to apply carver using the available trail width.

[Aracan]

Not sure if the Sigi pic is to the point, we would have to see the video. From his position relative to the gate he may already have finished the frontside turn and is rotated into the next backside turn.

[daveo]

27 minutes ago, Aracan said:

Not sure if the Sigi pic is to the point, we would have to see the video. From his position relative to the gate he may already have finished the frontside turn and is rotated into the next backside turn.

It's basically mid turn if that's the Goryu edge. I was there... 

[slapos]

have a look here

 

[slapos]

I decided to share two more with you:

https://youtu.be/XELPBmZCek4

https://youtu.be/uywLcOQ_mMM

this shows what I do on flats to keep going without loosing speed

cheers