UPZ RC 11 vs HSP: New Boot Dilemma

[crackaddict]

New UPZ RC11s arrived today in blue.  Been wearing them around the house a bit and I'm not sure this is my boot.

With one boot on each foot I have as much fore/aft range of motion in the RC11 locked in forward lean as I do with the HSP in walk mode!  That worries me. 

With the HSP locked forward I can pressure the boot tongue on my toeside and relax my feet and ankles when the cord is smooth.  I don't think I'm going to be able to do that in the new boots.  Pressuring the bootcuff of an over-tightened boot is an essential part of my best turns.  I don't like riding the HSP in walk mode; I lock both boots in the most forward position and ride the stiffest bindings I can get (TD3 SI).

Did I buy the wrong boot?  I can still send them back if I don't ride them.  It's snowing here, so I have a few days to decide...

Is it possible that racers want that progressive flex and range of motion for ice and ruts but some freecarvers prefer a stiffer boot for better conditions?  Freecarvers do generally prefer stiffer bindings than racers...  Will I be happier in the Deeluxe Track 700T?  Is it stiffer?  Less range of motion when locked?  With a wide forefoot, these two models seem my only options.

I do like the performance of the HSP boot a lot, but I've never tried any other snowboard-specific hardboot or BTS.   This RC11 seems like a very different boot.

So should I order the race tongue set and start cranking the flex adjustment nuts on the RC11s or trade up while I still can?

[ursle]

I have the UPZ10, with the grey tongue but not the race cuff, wasn't available at the time, I also have conformable foamed liners with a very stif tongue, and yes, the grey tongue is a game changer, as would be the race cuff, but the conformable liners- tongue makes the setup very stiff, your issue may be that you already have the upz cranked forward and they seem upright compared to your present boots, if I understand you correctly.

I find my forward lean on the upz to be adaquate, well, the middle buckle limits how far it can be leaned forward, get extra buckles from Dan for down the road.  

[Beckmann AG]

I'd be more concerned with what's under your feet, in terms of how the ramp angle compares between the RC and HSP, especially given you may not be able to get additional base rings for your TD's to make up any difference.

Is the unwanted flex coming from the cuff hinging, and the springs being too soft? OR from the shell distorting as you lean into it? Or from the liner compacting?

How do the RC feel on the foot in terms of fit and contour? If the overall fit is better than the HSP, you may not need to lever the shells to the same extent in the RC.

And forget what the racists prefer. It's recently been determined that they don't carve anyway, so their needs are different than yours.

Further, the boot shell should be considered a lever of maintenance, not a lever of activation, so there's a possibility the 'softer' shell might alter your riding for the better.

 

 

[Ladia]

Two different beats. I had 4 pairs of heads mostly I rode them open or with BTS. I went to UPZ RC8  and could not make them working for me, got softer red tongue , rode open nothing worked for ne. I sold them and got  soft UPZ ATB, drove them locked opened and with Drupi spring system with the same results. Also I did not like that huge inside dam the boots has. I had to ride with 3 degree toe lift. 6 put foot I guess flat but it was too much on front for me. Sold them also. I think they are much taller than Heads and this is most likely my problem. I like first year model of heads , blue translucent  Pro and regular Heads with plastic buckles and orange tongue. On later  production I think they changed plastic to much harder. UPZ had nicest fit with thermoliner. Walk in these on a frozen parking lot was challenging. Very happy with AT  boots. To wear boots around hose I found pretty much useless they feel ok and on the snow flex is completely different, for me it always feel much stiffer, maybe because at home I really "work" on the flex. I had it recently with DGSS on Raichle boots, set them up and first thing on the snow was to loose nuts completely and I will go with much softer spring. But it what I like shorter and soft flex. If the boots don't feel good on first day except liners it is difficult to "grow up" into like them later.

 

 

[lonbordin]

The UPZ's can be the stiffest snowboard specific boot that is sold today with bolt on parts... no Neil custom mods necessary.

Race cuffs- http://upzboots.com/shop/upz-wc-rcr-race-cuff-set/

Tongue choices- http://upzboots.com/shop/upz-tongue-set-for-2016/  (Note: I've used the silver and that was STIFF... I can't imagine what the dark grey is like)

Stiffer springs- http://upzboots.com/shop/upz-forward-flex-race-springs/

Stiffer heels- http://upzboots.com/shop/upz-race-heel-kit-set-snowboard-drak-grey-superstiff/

Throw out those Flo liners and get yourself some decent Intuition power wraps... this will also add stiffness and comfort. 

Good luck!

 

[teach]

A few thoughts

The black tongues are pretty soft. As lonbordin says, the silver are much stiffer -- the dark grey are pretty close to unbendable by hand.

Maybe you're just used to a feature of the HSP, the forward-travel-limiting "wings" on the lower cuff? A lot of posts here on how to hack that back to get more travel.

The super-stiff heels lonbordin mentions are also lower, I think ("same height as Northwave") so that might be desirable to cut ramp angle --- except you're in stepins... . The red are already quite stiff (and slippery). You can still get stiffer red or dark grey toepieces.

Are the shells too big? What kind of fit do you have? UPZ sizing can be a little confusing.

Possibly also the tall cuffs are giving you more leverage?

[queequeg]

It all depends on your feet and riding style of course, but here is my experience switching from Head Stratos Pro to UPZ; YMMV:

- The head boot is way stiffer stock. I wouldn’t say it is stiff actually: I would say it is restrictive. You can make the UPZ stiffer without losing ROM, but no matter what you do to soften the HSP (eg: cutting the wings) it has a design that limits ROM (covered in my next point).

- IMHO: There is a flaw in the design of the HSP that causes your liner to pack out around the ankle throughout the day. Basically: the instep buckle sits way higher  than the hinge and is anchored to the boot last rather than the cuff. As the cuff moves forward, this stationary buckle does not move with it, and presses against your insep and pushes your heel back. All of this pressure is transferred to the liner when you crouch and it packs out to the point that your ankle starts to be loose and swim around in the boot (particularly while upright). If you carve fairly upright and want a stiff boot this may not be a problem for you, but if you have a dynamic carving style where you modulate between compressed and upright positions: the mechanics of this boot can be a problem. After a day of riding in these my heel/ankle was swimming around like crazy in these.

- if you have a meaty enough ankle and are a big guy, the ankle mechanics might be ok nonetheless. Also - some people have relocated the problematic instep buckle to the cuff.

- the UPZs are adequately stiff laterally and soft in terms of forward lean. The grey tongues make a big difference (I am happy with the flex of the boot on the stiff dark grey tongues).

- I was surprised at the effect of the built in ramp in the UPZ: I feel like it effectively improved my range of motion in terms of being able to crouch down lower. It felt less weird than I expected it to.

- the UPZ last is a terrible match for my egyptian forefoot, and I’ve had to do lots of punching. I eventually had to go up from a 26 to a 28 to ride pain free because of this. Remarkably: despite the big jump in shell-sizes my foot is very stable in the boot (after a bit of bootfitting).

- the spring system for the UPZ is great, no need to install a BTS or anything else. Some people disagree and install aftermarket springs but IMHO : they’re unnecessary if you have your bindings set up correctly.

Just my experiences but that is how I felt going from Head to UPZ. I like a supportive boot but would never go back to the heads. Hope that helps!

The crashing buckle issue mentioned by Ursule: I had problems with this on my older MP26 boots, with the old-style aluminum buckles. My new MP28’s have new buckles that are steel wire, and the larger boot spaces buckles a bit better - no longer a problem for me.

I was not aware of the racing cuffs! Gonna order a set!

Edited March 4, 2018 by queequeg

[crackaddict]

Thanks for the feedback BOL!  

To clarifiy, the problem is not that the position is too upright, it's that it has a lot (maybe too much) range of forward motion when locked.  The flex is coming from the boot cuff hinging, and the boot is designed to flex that way, I'm just not sure I'm gonna like the ride.  I like stiff boards, stiff bindings, and over-tightened boots in good conditions.  I even order my boards with round sidecuts and low taper to get that 'locked-in' feel.  Set up this way, I can take all the pressure off my feet and ankles, straighten my legs and absorb imperfections in the corduroy with my core.  I can carve with a very quiet upper body and make it look like the board is doing all the work.  It looks and feels like I'm just leaning and twisting, standing upright.  (Not recommended when the conditions are rough; hitting holes or bumps with straight legs and relaxed ankles can put a lot of impact on the spine.) 

I'm worried that the new boots won't allow me to make this kind of relaxed, stylish turn and that I will have to maintain some tension in my ankles and some bend in my knees (which is what I do anyway when the conditions are less than great or the pitch is more than blue).  So I know that "proper technique" involves a lot of movement in the knees and ankles, but my best turns are all made with barely perceptible movements.  While I teach new carvers to exaggerate their compression/ decompression, I prefer to minimize it in my own freecarves as the conditions and terrain allow.  This is why I started thinking last night that racers (or "racists", as they've been called recently) want that range of motion but maybe I don't.   Interesting to see some of them locking out that forward range of motion.  Maybe the BTS-like progressive flex is for less aggressive or lower, knees-to-chest/ butt-to-boot-top carving (and 'skivoting')?

If there's no one here who prefers the 700T for stiffness and lower range of forward motion over the UPZ, I'll order the race tongues and hard springs and start tinkering.  Has anyone switched from BTS to stock locking lean mechanisms and preferred the latter for freecarving?  Or do people only go one way and never go back?  I know Jack despises the stock Deeluxe mechanism, but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody does.

The fit is good, the comfort will take some time and probably new liners.   Good chance I'm going to love these boots after tinkering, but it's an expensive first run and then I'm committed.  I'm afraid that I may have bought the wrong boots, but it might just be the crack making me paranoid.  I can buy a lot of crack for the cost of these boots, but anyway I'll probably need both for great carves.  (Anyone in the market for a used pair of HSP 27.5?  I need the cash for crack and race cuffs!)

Wish I had taken the time to try all the available boots in Aspen last year.  I was just having too much fun to do any 'work'.

 

Threadjack: turns out the boot ramp angle is not much different between the HSP and the RC11, despite internet rumours to the contrary.  I had my spare cants all ready to mount last night, but the boots didn't feel so drastically different so I undertook some measurements.

Methodology #1: place the boot shell against a wall, drop a stick in the heel and mark the top of the stick on the wall.  Do the same with the stick near the toe.  Now repeat with the other boot.  Measure the distance between the two lines for each boot and some basic trigonometry will yield the boot ramp angles.

Methodology #2: drop a torpedo level inside the boot and put shims under the front of the boot until the bubble is centered.  Measure the shims for each boot and do the math.

Results and conclusions: the difference between the gaps on the lines on the wall across the two boot models was about 1/16 of an inch.  The difference between the height of the shims was also about the same.  With the math, I get approximately 7.7 degrees on the HSP and 8.3 degrees on the RC11.  There's some of room for error here, but I maintain the difference between the two boot ramp angles is less than one degree.  (With my methodologies, the difference between the boot models is measured more accurately than the actual ramp angles quoted.)  One degree is not enough to warrant changing my cants or my stance.  There are better ways of measuring boot ramp angles and I encourage the folks at home to try their own method and post the results.

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by crackaddict

[lonbordin]

59 minutes ago, crackaddict said:

f there's no one here who prefers the 700T for stiffness and lower range of forward motion over the UPZ, I'll order the race tongues and hard springs and start tinkering.  Has anyone switched from BTS to stock locking lean mechanisms and preferred the latter for freecarving?  Or do people only go one way and never go back?  I know Jack despises the stock Deeluxe mechanism, but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody does.

I've had Indy 700 (Fixed, RAB, BTS), 425 Pro (Fixed, BTS) and UPZ (Different tongues, liners). 

If I had to attempt to create the environment you seek knowing your coming from HSP I'd chose UPZ with the race spring and silver tongue as the suggested mods (maybe dark grey but I'm afraid to recommend that level of stiffness and I'm running 113 kg/195 cm).  The UPZs are so easy to swap tongues. I could see you keeping the stiffer spring in and swapping to blacks to continue riding in less than perfect conditions.

[queequeg]

1 hour ago, crackaddict said:

To clarifiy, the problem is not that the position is too upright, it's that it has a lot (maybe too much) range of forward motion when locked.  The flex is coming from the boot cuff hinging, and the boot is designed to flex that way, I'm just not sure I'm gonna like the ride.

Are you talking about the UPZ or HSP here? With both boots - unless you have modified the boot I don't think there is any way to actually lock it, all you can do is engage/disengage the spring mechanism. The spring mechanism isn't particularly stiff, the boot will feel stiffer with it engaged than disengaged though. I would assume people have developed ways to lock the cuffs. The Deeluxe Track 700's come with a locking forward lean mechanism right out of the box — I wish I could say I have tried them but I have not. 

Actually: on second thought—you can probably lock the boot by tightening the spring mechanism to its absolute extreme. I never mess with it so that did not occur to me. Have you tried that? Perhaps you've already done that. Once that is accomplished, I would imagine the limiting factor for what you are trying to do is how readily the boot collapses under forward pressure. I would imagine the stiffer cuff and stiffer tongue would increase the load you can achieve before the boot plastics start to collapse. 

Quote

Threadjack: turns out the boot ramp angle is not much different between the HSP and the RC11, despite internet rumours to the contrary.  I had my spare cants all ready to mount last night, but the boots didn't feel so drastically different so I undertook some measurements. ... With the math, I get approximately 7.7 degrees on the HSP and 8.3 degrees on the RC11 ... the difference between the two boot ramp angles is less than one degree.  

This is pretty interesting. I had always assumed it was much more than this (though small changes sometimes make a big difference I suppose).

Edited March 3, 2018 by queequeg

[teach]

1 hour ago, crackaddict said:

Threadjack: turns out the boot ramp angle is not much different between the HSP and the RC11, despite internet rumours to the contrary.  I had my spare cants all ready to mount last night, but the boots didn't feel so drastically different so I undertook some measurements.

Methodology #1: place the boot shell against a wall, drop a stick in the heel and mark the top of the stick on the wall.  Do the same with the stick near the toe.  Now repeat with the other boot.  Measure the distance between the two lines for each boot and some basic trigonometry will yield the boot ramp angles.

Methodology #2: drop a torpedo level inside the boot and put shims under the front of the boot until the bubble is centered.  Measure the shims for each boot and do the math.

Results and conclusions: the difference between the gaps on the lines on the wall across the two boot models was about 1/16 of an inch.  The difference between the height of the shims was also about the same.  With the math, I get approximately 7.7 degrees on the HSP and 8.3 degrees on the RC11.  There's some of room for error here, but I maintain the difference between the two boot ramp angles is less than one degree.  (With my methodologies, the difference between the boot models is measured more accurately than the actual ramp angles quoted.)  One degree is not enough to warrant changing my cants or my stance.  There are better ways of measuring boot ramp angles and I encourage the folks at home to try their own method and post the results.

 

I've done it with MP28 UPZ versus Deeluxe and actually found a slightly greater ramp with the Deeluxe, so I'm not surprised. I think the legend of greater UPZ ramp might be correct for smaller sizes, though. I haven't measured that yet.

I don't think the RCR cuffs will solve the forward travel problem. Grab some stiff springs and tongues and I bet you'll be happy.

[queequeg]

18 minutes ago, teach said:

 I think the legend of greater UPZ ramp might be correct for smaller sizes, though.

That makes a ton of sense.

[Beckmann AG]

5 hours ago, queequeg said:

Quote

... the difference between the two boot ramp angles is less than one degree.  

This is pretty interesting. I had always assumed it was much more than this (though small changes sometimes make a big difference I suppose).

One degree makes almost no difference if you're way off the mark. The last tenth, however, can be significant.

If memory serves, the Dee-lucks boot board isn't linear, with an upward curve in the arch area. So ramp measurements can vary, and should be evaluated using the point of contact under the heel bone, and also at the first metatarsal head as the end points.

Agree on the smaller size thing, as the provision for the Intec heel will be consistent as the sole length changes.

 

[Carvin' Marvin]

I liked everything about the T700 better than the UPZ except how they fit my foot. I just couldn't get them to fit right. Sold them to a member here that was using HSP for years and he really likes them. The UPZ are nice and adjustable but it took quite some time to adjust to the flex and what not. 

[lonbordin]

28 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

If memory serves, the Dee-lucks boot board isn't linear, with an upward curve in the arch area

I can corroborate his memory... it does indeed have the curve as described.

Source- My 425s and my Indys.

[bigwavedave]

Maybe you should look at ski boots. You could probably try the fit at a local shop without having to buy them first. Some racers and freecarvers use them. Maybe @BlueB  knows...Dalbello boots? or something similar.

Edited March 7, 2018 by bigwavedave

[BlueB]

My Dalbello CRX / CarveX are the same shells as HSP... They are discontinued, but Panterra seems to be using the same molds... 

[lonbordin]

4 minutes ago, BlueB said:

My Dalbello CRX / CarveX are the same shells as HSP... They are discontinued, but Panterra seems to be using the same molds... 

How do you like the hard stop while flexing to the rear? Also what cuff angle do you ride with? 15*?

Did you ever try the Full tilt line?

[BlueB]

Didn't try the Full Tilt, they are different shells - the Flexon lineage... 

No idea about angle... I just set it to feel right with toe/heel lifts I run and stance width. It's about mid setting. I ride unlocked more often then locked, at least on the rear boot. 

Hard stops... I'm thinking of a new theory, where the hard stop should be on the rear of the rear boot and front of the front boot...