Alternative to Palau 141 liners for Deeluxe?

[Freezer]

I'm looking for suggestions for an alternative liner to the Palau 141 for Deeluxe boots.  I'm finding that after riding for a couple of hours the liner gets hot, soft, and packs out considerably, making the fit very loose and producing heel lift even with the buckles on the tightest setting.  The liners feel great until they get hot, but after that they're way too loose.  Any suggestions for a liner that doesn't have the same issue but also allows the boot to flex freely?  Thanks!

Edited April 23, 2017 by Freezer
Sp

[Beckmann AG]

Your situation (as described) is usually associated with a shell that's too large, or a poor contour match for the foot.

Possibly both. Becomes more apparent in springtime.

More often than not, the user assumes the liner has 'packed out' from use, when in fact they bought the wrong boot.

Changing the liner or re-molding will address the symptom, but not the underlying problem.

[Freezer]

6 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Your situation (as described) is usually associated with a shell that's too large, or a poor contour match for the foot.

Possibly both. Becomes more apparent in springtime.

More often than not, the user assumes the liner has 'packed out' from use, when in fact they bought the wrong boot.

Changing the liner or re-molding will address the symptom, but not the underlying problem.

I'm beginning to suspect you're right on the contour match.  I rode Raichle 325's for 15 years with the stock liner which had huge knobs above the ankle to keep my ankle in place.  Switching to the Palau liner is worse that the old stock liners.  I've got a pair of UPZ in the mail now to try that fit.  Thanks for the input.

[ursle]

The deluxe requires Hugh calves, your old liners with the folds in the ankle worked, there's a lot of empty space, heel hold is nonexistent unless you fill the void, the upz liners are for up boots which don't have the excess volume problem, a liner that is filled with foam while the foot is in the shell is the way to go, conformable with a good orthotic will last years, a foam wrap around with a 1/2" of foam underfoot isn't, as you described, the first time you warm it up it disintegrates.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Please be aware of heel-lift, and, your ankle width. IF you are slipping Up in a Dee-Lux 325, you may need a shell that is 'skinnier' near the heel/cuff, and a UPZ actually is a tad wider from 27 mondo on up (it also is wider in the toes!). So, even though a RAB doesn't fit, consider an old Dalbello based boot (which would be Burton/Head/Blax), or maybe the "Indy" series of Dee-lux boots, but maybe a shell-size down (watch for toe room!). The fit is, up to you, but, if you're 'losing traction', that isn't good. Pay heed to your foot shape, and comfort limits. It may be fixable with your current shell, given some fixes to the liner as they are. If not, think about whether your foot matches the overall shell shaping.

[Beckmann AG]

15 hours ago, Freezer said:

I rode Raichle 325's for 15 years with the stock liner which had huge knobs above the ankle to keep my ankle in place.  Switching to the Palau liner is worse that the old stock liners.

The stock component liners are thicker/more dense than the moldable liners. This tends to put the consumer in an oversized shell at the point of sale. So, if you sized your 325's for general comfort, then replaced the stock liner with the Palau, it's no surprise that you'd have some slop in the system. Particular given the lack of contour in the Deeluxe/Raichle ankle pocket.

Similarly, if you bought a new pair of boots (with moldables) using the size on your 325 as a reference, you'd most likely be one size too large.

In the event you're not already aware, the UPZ might require alteration to your preferred binding toe/heel lift and offset, due to the exaggerated ramp angle and inset heel ledge.

Post or PM if you have further fit questions.

[Freezer]

[1xsculler]

Looks a bit generous behind your heel but measure your foot and know your shell size.

Edited April 26, 2017 by 1xsculler

[1xsculler]

What size, model and brand are your shells? 

What are the numbers stamped on the outside side of the sole? 

[RobertAlexander]

I ride 325s , and stuff 3 layers of cardboard in between the tongue and the liner, works fine,  The cardboard will squish flat after a few days,  it is cut to fit right in , and duct taped the edges ,    Works for me. 

[Jack M]

UPZ boots cured my heel lift issues, YMMV.

[Freezer]

20 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

UPZ boots cured my heel lift issues, YMMV.

Thanks Jack.  I just got the UPZ ATB boots yesterday (shipped from the Czech Republic!), and I'm pretty impressed with the quality and finish.  I installed the DGSS system and the fit inside the boot feels great.  I'll probably try them with both the stock liners and the Palau liners next year, but they both feel good in the boot.  The UPZ definitely seems to be better for a lower volume foot/ankle and the fact that the boot flexes nicely seems to prevent the whole liner lifting up at the heel like it was doing with the Deeluxe.  I measured the ramp angle of the footbed, and it's 3/16" higher at the heel compared to the same sized Deeluxe.  It feels fine on the board, and I think that as long as you can get the angle of your lower leg comfortable, the angle of the footbed is sort of trivial.

[jacopodotti]

I have Northwave .900 that gas internal volume similar to SB series.

I use a special Palau overlap liner that is 12mm thick, bought from carver.si that are not sold directly from Palau.

[Jack M]

On 5/3/2017 at 1:34 PM, Freezer said:

I measured the ramp angle of the footbed, and it's 3/16" higher at the heel compared to the same sized Deeluxe.  It feels fine on the board, and I think that as long as you can get the angle of your lower leg comfortable, the angle of the footbed is sort of trivial.

I don't think so.  I had to go from a 3 degree toe lift on the front foot to a 6 degree toe lift when I switched from Deeluxe to UPZ, because my front leg was burning out.  Someone else measured and found that even with a 6 degree toe lift under the boot, the net combination still results in a forward slope.

[1xsculler]

I'm trying to remember this but I believe a TD3 binding mounted with a zero degree base produces a few degrees of toe lift too, doesn't it...can't remember for sure?

[Jack M]

32 minutes ago, 1xsculler said:

I'm trying to remember this but I believe a TD3 binding mounted with a zero degree base produces a few degrees of toe lift too, doesn't it...can't remember for sure?

I've never heard that.  If it did it certainly wouldn't be "a few degrees".  More like 0.5 at most.  But I suspect 0.0.

[davekempmeister]

3 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I've never heard that.  If it did it certainly wouldn't be "a few degrees".  More like 0.5 at most.  But I suspect 0.0.

this got me curious enough to get them out, set them up and take a look.  as best i can determine, they sit at 0.0.

i ride plates flat and after reading the suggestion that there was some lift, wanted to see for myself.  whenever i set Cateks up with some toe/heel lift to give it the occasional try and see, i always revert to flat (usually at lunch).  the TD3s that i have are with the 0 degree base

[Jack M]

Yeah. Fin is an engineer. (Like, with a 4 year degree) He wouldn't tolerate an error like that. 

[JRAZZ]

^^^  Being an engineer has nothing to do with not making stupid mistakes.  

 

 

[davekempmeister]

22 minutes ago, erazz said:

^^^  Being an engineer has nothing to do with not making stupid mistakes.  

 

 

Moot point. No mistakes were made.   Just the same, even the unfounded suggestion that a learned engineer's CNC product, specifically labeled "0 degree", might be off by a few degrees is unflattering, at best.  

I have the bindings,with 0 degree discs, and took the opportunity to satisfy my own curiosity about any variance.  There is none.  

btw,  nice double negative.  S is as S does.

[JRAZZ]

Just proving my point :)

Engineer == S

[davekempmeister]

44 minutes ago, erazz said:

Just proving my point :)

Engineer == S

Ha!  You are a good sport!  I do stupid stuff, like ride my bindings flat!, right?   Guarantee plenty on BOL think that about my settings.

That's gotta make me way stupider than you !

[Jack M]

[SunSurfer]

Anyone measuring binding toe/heel lift and/or canting on a mounted binding needs to take into account the slope created by the surface the board is resting on, and the camber and the thickness profile of the board, and make sure their slope meter (of whatever sort) is properly zeroed. Otherwise, GIGO rules. 

[JRAZZ]

This got me thinking....  (oh oh...)

 

Why would it matter what degree the binding has your boot?  Who really cares?   The boot is going to be at a certain angle, then the footbed is at another angle, and the camber of the board makes a difference too...   In the end you put on the boot, bind in, and go screaming down the mountain with varying levels of control (some less than others).

 

As long as you are comfortable why should it matter what angle you got between the board and the boot?  

 This obsessiveness with numbers is what got me into trouble in the first place.  I tried to measure really accurately the binding angle and didn't ride any better.  Only when I stopped measuring and made small incremental adjustment to how the setup FEELS did I get better...     (and again, the enginerd being stupid here)