Softboot Duck-Foot Heelside EC Help? lol.

[RyanKnapton]

Thanks for all the input guys!  Below is the vid showing some of the tries from the next day while thinking about the info posted here.  The first two minutes is the same shots from the previous video I posted, the rest is from the next day.

As I mention in the vid... the things that seemed to help get it a bit better were the pics RCrobar and Technick posted... especially my body position of what I'm doing when entering a toeside vs heelside.

I have plenty more to work on, but here's some extra thoughts on some of the things that were mentioned...

Indeed I'm 'body'ing out'... or butting out... After the next day I was 'butt hurt' from how many times I had tried it... My butt literally hurt!  Ha.  

The super deep knee bend RCrobar mentioned and a refresher of the funcarve vid really helped... Although I can't get my body into his positions with my angles... just trying my best to really cleaned up the turn quite a bit.

Playing around with some forward cant on both could be interesting indeed... Might have to try that at the next demo just as an experiment.

"more duct tape"... Ron... it's Gorilla tape I told you!  You now owe me a beer cuz of your smart-ass comment.  :D

I think a larger radius board would indeed help... At 3:01 in the vid below you can see light coming through in between my bindings, where the edge should be in contact with the snow... If it was a smaller radius this would be worse for sure... and I think thats one of the reasons it starts to chatter... but either way, a larger radius and that middle section should have better contact with the snow.  Will have to try something else at the next demo.

Playing around with trying to find a body position while trying to lay it down, that could work better is for sure something I need to do... on the toeside... say if I'm on a steep run, and purposely lay on my belly and lift my board off the snow, I can get into a position that I can gently put pressure on the edge and turn it into a carve and ride away from it.  I can't do anything like that on the heelside yet... I'd assume someone like Joerg could easily do that on his heelside?  Indeed my stance angles may limit me... but 15,-15 is kinda my thing so that I can do everything switch too..   But could be worth trying +,+ sometime just as an experiment for how it can feel.

I know there was a couple other things I was thinking about while trying em... but can't think of anything else right this second.

Thank you all again for the input!  I'll be coming back to this thread re-examining some ideas for sure!

 

 

[digger jr]

Sorry, I'm just really into tape, Gorrilla and Duck.

 The thing I noticed on the last vid was rotation, and looking up into the turn. You must have some great flexibility in the upper/lower leg area:)

Maybe you can crank your rear leg forward ( sideways) with your binding setup.

Much smoother and looking good!

Was talking to a soft boot guy who was asking about carving and I said look up RK on the net. He was already a fan. You're getting out there.

Be safe and I will bring beer money next time.

Ron

Edited March 23, 2017 by digger jr
Build up RKs ego

[Corey]

VERY cool man!  You're breaking new ground here, so take what us crazy hardbooters do and adapt it to your setup. 

You can see the board fighting to turn tighter in that little oscillation, a bigger radius should help. 

I also get lower with a push-pull style turn, where I don't really sustain the steep lean angle for as long.  I think of it as having my center of mass traveling on one arc and my feet taking a bigger swing out and then back under to catch me before I slam. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm surprised that with the amount of pressure you are able to put to the edge in your normal turns that you are still sticking with such a tight radius sidecut. Most of us are rocking 10m or longer. 

[softbootsurfer]

the only difference I see is that you are learning with practice to allow the body to slide as opposed to bounce along the surface, this then allows the board to remain in the carve...IMO also trying to film and EC at the same time... 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by softbootsurfer

[Zone]

I wonder if the rotated shoulders and esp hips helps you lock your butt higher up. Almost look like you're riding positive back foot angles with the contorsion (looks good though).

Have you tried (as a cheat) a bit more gliding pressure on the front arm to push your butt up even a bit higher (so you look even less angulated)?

[barryj]

Ryan

Impressive on multiple levels.....soft boots, duck stance, avarage radius board and not to mention filming at the same time!   Is that Gopro or your cell phone your filming with??

Your on the right track....with your board you look most comfortable and locked in to the turn when you grabbed your toe side edge........other wise try stretching it out like the European ec riders, see photo below....straight knees and leading arm way above their head and head is leaning on the leading arm dragging through the snow ......toe side arm is straight down by their hip.  Not my style of ec.......but some where between the two is where you will find the sweet spot for you and your board...........of course you will have to leave the filming to someone else....which could be a game changer by getting both hands into the reach and rotation!! 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by barryj

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Again, Ryan, understand, please,Know how your highbacks work. I gave you some fundamentals. The 'BoYz' at Burton have hypnotized an entire Generation of Softboot Riders into believing that forward projection of mass doesn't exist. [It does!!]. Any 'Issues' you have with my recommendations here, hey, just ask John Gilmour about my ability of diagnosis in softboot riding, please! I got it, even BETTER than what I tell Hardbooters, even after all these years... I do not need to change: I've proven it out already, a LONG while ago.  You, You, Need to accept a change or two [Or, I hope not, 3, then it gets complicated!] in not just 'Posture', but also the MECHANICAL LINK to Your Board, which, IS THE PROBLEM, Resultant of THE CULTURE you came Up From. DUCK SUCKS, for CARVING!!  I like it for freedom of movement (as do, obviously many others) , but it F#U%$ with your BODY PLACEMENT in Heelside Carves, and always Will !! You can always re-learn Switch-based pop-spin moves, and Most spins beyond 540 are still available in a Directional stance. I won't defend going past 720* without Duck, but, then, again, bevels and Rockers take up the SLACK from missing a Rotational move.I don't 'Cheat' by sliding Diagonal on my 'spin' moves, I ride CAMBERED boards...

So, go BACK, GO BACK, and Re-Read my 1st advice, of increasing Forward Lean 1-2 clicks (Could be more, or less?), but ALSO using a 'Wrap-Around' Highback to let you "project" your body Mass Forwards, and still Engage the Edge LATE in the turn with the Rear Leg!!  THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY IMPORTANT,and YOU wouldn't KNOW IF You never RODE a Solid-Highback 3-Strap Binding! I have, for dozens of years, but, they're mostly all Broken now...

You are SOOOO Missing IT by IGNORING this sage advice!  24* F, 12* R.  Just DO IT, and Then, get back to us.... Best of luck...

Surfin' these ol' Hills since Back in the Day!

"PSR"

[breeseomatic]

32 minutes ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

So, go BACK, GO BACK, and Re-Read my 1st advice, of increasing Forward Lean 1-2 clicks (Could be more, or less?), but ALSO using a 'Wrap-Around' Highback to let you "project" your body Mass Forwards, and still Engage the Edge LATE in the turn with the Rear Leg!!  THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY IMPORTANT,and YOU wouldn't KNOW IF You never RODE a Solid-Highback 3-Strap Binding! I have, for dozens of years, but, they're mostly all Broken now...

You are SOOOO Missing IT by IGNORING this sage advice!  24* F, 12* R.  Just DO IT, and Then, get back to us.... Best of luck...

Surfin' these ol' Hills since Back in the Day!

"PSR"

You're making a lot assumption on his gear.  I've seen it and have ridden on Ryan's personal setup and it goes beyond "solid-highback 3-strap bindings".  His duck stance will probably not go away for a very long time since the demographic he caters doesn't want to ride a forward stance, it wants duck, it wants pipe, it wants jumps, spins and butters.  I believe the point is to try and get a "decent enough" EC style carve with duck stance.

So let's try and help Ryan out by providing some feedback that is not picking apart his stance.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Yes, and no... I've seen what I can of what can be seen from vids.  I've rode more potential stances than most here have, inclusive to something pretty near to Ryan's current stance. MY POINT is this: His stance might yet provide a decent EC carve, but, I've only seen something close happen a few times, and, on very different boards than Ryan uses. Ryan is close, no doubt. BUT, his Choices of stance and Equipment are impediments. He can try to overcome those issues by listening to the 70's pop-disco song "Rubberband Man", or, tweak the Mechanical link betwixt his board and himself to complete the task In Softboots. Since many others before him have shown they can 'lay over' layed-out carves in softboots (going back to, oh, my, Mark Heingartner, for an example), [or, a good 17 years later, Vinnie on a Tanker at ECES '02], it is clearly NOT a Softboot Issue, it comes down to the BINDING SETUP.  I first 'looped' my own tracks in '92 on a JOYRIDE 153, duck-stanced twin-tip with a beveled base, BUT, only going Toeside. Later that season, I went wider in stance (20") by adding inserts, and upped my front angle to 42*, with +18* rear, using three-strap bindings. I could then "loop" almost as easily as I could in hardboots on either my Nitro EFT Asym, or LaCroix Eagle, or 'widened stance' Safari Comp-1. Mind you, I rode probably 6-7 different stances, given the gear of the day. I always rode the Kidwell with a slight duck stance. By far, having the extra support of a 'power-wing' highback brought the ability to 'project power' fore-aft better than anything I'd seen since Burton's 3-strap Torque binding [which, in my case, were, are, scarce; I keep breaking them, and have 1 left..]. That lack of angular force projection is EXACTLY what Ryan is Missing, right now. Put a wrap-around on the front, set the forward lean, and rotational value right, and the Nose will "Hook Up" quite nicely. You can 'try'that on the rear, and, perhaps get a better result. However, one must consider how a KNEE BENDS. Until Ryan get's That figured, going FORWARDS, well... maybe chicken legs will fit the AASI model.

I prefer Hominid bi-pedal motion myself.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Beckmann AG]

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well Eric, he'd EC a lot better than your suggested setup if he'd just switch to hard boots with a 22-cm waisted EC-specific board, 45/50 angles and flexy bindings.  But that's not what he asked about either.

Ryan is a pro who is building his career around instructional videos catering to riders using roughly the same stance he does.  As soon as he moves into forward angles, he loses a large chunk of his audience.  He's not just another recreational rider looking to get better.  Not sure how that's such a hard concept for you to understand.

[Corey]

To add to Neil's post; I suspect that once he gets this going forward, the next step is doing it switch.  Which will be F***ING EPIC.  :D

Mr. Knapton is on the cutting edge.  No one knows how to do what he's trying to do as no one else is doing it.  We can only offer advice to help, and he'll try stuff and hopefully find success.  

[Rob Stevens]

As to the above, I wouldn't say that no one else is doing it. There are a few people who are, with one I know of a little farther along. 

 What we shouldn't be chasing after is the "EC" label. It has a very specific look which is directly related to the equipment and set up. We'll do our own thing, over here, in the stance we've chosen, but it's understandable when someone says "You can't do that!"  because we can't... Not where we look exactly the same, anyway.

Ultimately, it's more about timing and core strength. There's nothing happening here that practice and set up can't overcome.

As to the forward biased rear foot, it helps, but for me, reverting to that would have negative performance consequences in other areas, so I wouldn't do it any more than I think the OP would.

This is relatively uncharted territory. Again, Ryan's not the first one to ty it, nor is he the first one who will achieve consistency with it. He is the first one to document the process, so I can see the impression it might give to those outside the softboot-on-the-daily community. 

[ecshredder]

That is an amazing video Ryan!

[RyanKnapton]

Turns out Ron was right.  Need more tape. lololol  (pic of my jacket after working on em today).

Eric,  I'll try the 24, 12 soon.  Today I was going to today on my last run, but by then the snow was so slushy I was leaving 6 inch trenches and it wouldn't have been decent enough snow to fully try to get the feel of what can happen with those angles when I'm sinking in that much.  Please understand those angles will suck when I try to do it switch tho... and yeah, since I still ride some park and am always doing buttering stuff riding switch... being completely symmetrical on a twin with a wide stance is where I'm at for now.  I completely understand my stance angles and width are not ideal for what I am trying.  

I played around with forward lean quite a bit today, and can't say anything with certainty other than 'need more tape'.  lol

One of the major problems seems to be all the pressure on the nose and tail when I get the board too high on its edge... and then the middle just isn't in the snow so the board starts doing weird things.  I'll keep working on em and try a larger radius board next weekend at Nationals and report back if I figure out anything better than how they are now.

NeedMoreTapeRK

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

I love the Jacket!  Did this almost exactly to my 'Bonfire' at Stratton, which ticked off the Ski School Director a tad! They almost billed me for wear+tear.  Btw, I was mostly on two Rad-Airs that season; a Tanker 162, and my very old, trusty 148 cm Asym Soul. I , the rode the Soul while trying for Dev Team, got 3rd, the only hardbooter to ride the bumps switch, or use blindside nose-rolls to a 'teaching progression' for 3's, 5's and 7's off of kickers. 

So, Ryan, my big concern is in Torque on your rear leg using a Duck Stance for extreme carves. You need not go to '+12' at the rear, you may be like Old School Dan, and be able to rotate your toes out past 15* and still touch your knees together?  Most of us wouldn't pull that off , regardless of binding stance, and very few can withstand the compression of a hard carve at those angles. And, that's before you discuss hip placement Fore/Aft, or rotation.counter-rotation of the hips during the event...

The other area is in/of highback support that allows transfer of power out to the nose/tail areas of the board. Powerwings, such as used by my T-9 Bradshaws offer the ability to project power outwards to the nose/tail, even with a Duck stance (although, perhaps, more moderate at the rear foot?), allowing then control of thrust throughout the entire turn. What you are attempting requires control of the full length of the board's edge. It also should be bio-mechanically a group of moves that doesn't put your knees at odds with your hips, or, upper body. I hope you find both the stancing, and, an ergonomic 'comfort zone' that allows you to progress without injury, whatever that may, in the end, be.

 

[terekhov]

it's always a strange feeling that when someone lays extended in toeside carve - it goes too sitted-down overrotated posture in petty heelside. maybe you need to base heelside posture on dragging both scapulas? ;)

[Zone]

There are extended threads both here and on extremecarving.com forum as to clothing treatments to resist EC wear & tear.

May I suggest you continue duck stance, mainly because once successful,  I can just see you do switch duck heelside EC as the next move :-)

[frozzen]

The people are not looking for easy ways

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

On 3/22/2017 at 8:52 PM, Neil Gendzwill said:

I'm surprised that with the amount of pressure you are able to put to the edge in your normal turns that you are still sticking with such a tight radius sidecut. Most of us are rocking 10m or longer. 

 

On 3/24/2017 at 10:36 AM, Neil Gendzwill said:

Well Eric, he'd EC a lot better than your suggested setup if he'd just switch to hard boots with a 22-cm waisted EC-specific board, 45/50 angles and flexy bindings.  But that's not what he asked about either.

Ryan is a pro who is building his career around instructional videos catering to riders using roughly the same stance he does.  As soon as he moves into forward angles, he loses a large chunk of his audience.  He's not just another recreational rider looking to get better.  Not sure how that's such a hard concept for you to understand.

 

On 3/24/2017 at 4:48 PM, Rob Stevens said:

As to the above, I wouldn't say that no one else is doing it. There are a few people who are, with one I know of a little farther along. 

 What we shouldn't be chasing after is the "EC" label. It has a very specific look which is directly related to the equipment and set up. We'll do our own thing, over here, in the stance we've chosen, but it's understandable when someone says "You can't do that!"  because we can't... Not where we look exactly the same, anyway.

Ultimately, it's more about timing and core strength. There's nothing happening here that practice and set up can't overcome.

As to the forward biased rear foot, it helps, but for me, reverting to that would have negative performance consequences in other areas, so I wouldn't do it any more than I think the OP would.

This is relatively uncharted territory. Again, Ryan's not the first one to ty it, nor is he the first one who will achieve consistency with it. He is the first one to document the process, so I can see the impression it might give to those outside the softboot-on-the-daily community. 

 

3 hours ago, frozzen said:

The people are not looking for easy ways

So, after I've gone through the many responses here, I want to add these things, and this is NOT to deter Ryan...

My approach to 'the problem' has been both experiential, and based on equipment, by way of protecting the Athlete involved.  By no means have I said  "it cannot be done", but, rather, have tried to guide Ryan to a more-likely positive outcome. So far, No One Else has even noted either my notes of highback rotation, nor 'powerwings', which makes me think that a bunch of ya who used Burton 3-Straps (in whatever form) simply never knew "why" they worked. In and of that, whom who has commented, has experience with a 'winged' highback? Just Curious... As for tightened sidecuts, I offer my many years of riding Asym's, and Sym-Asyms, some of which had devious arcs planned for the rider (hint; I don't ride my Gordo FF 151 with Plates anymore!), so, I believe my riding experience has already eclipsed what-ever-sidecut twin that Ryan is currently on (that would be 6m up to 24m, from my POV). I'm not saying "I have the answer", but,I think I've got a probable solution group. Also, I did very much as Ryan is now doing, but in '93-'94-'95, trying to figure out if my riding would fit into PSIA's riding model, which was considerably inept in it's own right, based on Skiing applied to boards (anyone recall the "firehose" stance for beginners? Yeah, crap like that). I settled upon foregoing my roots, and get my Hardboot Riding nailed, which, in turn, later improved my overall riding, and got me to where my carving (in hardshells) was noted at Stratton. I always kept a few pair of Softies aside. Still do, and, on my 23 yr. old Gordo, I'll rip turns you can't match in hardboots (see, sidecut matters!) in select conditions (not chalk/ice, she's olden..). I still ride duck on occassion, but usually to 'goof off', go spin stuff, or jib a rail, or teach a leftie-forward rider. So, I'm glad to see the support for Ryan. I wish Andy Scullin or C. Yetz were around to compare with, but, two decades has passed (Spiro? where are You?), and I can't get THAT LOW in softies myself, now. However this plays out, I'm hoping Ryan doesn't 'corkscrew' his rear knee. I do hope he tries some variations in highback and stance angles. He's gifted enough to pull this, in, an unconventional manner. That also raises a concern of rider safety, in biomechanics. Directional stances, as 'Duck' stances do, have a select purpose. The proof is in the evolution itself.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

She's a former Racer, her brother is AASI educated, and, at times, at bit clueless (no slam on him, it's 'the product' chain). But, note the camber differential, even at pedestrian  speeds, with knee position. This is a major issue of a ducked stance.  And, that's WAY before we talk of hip-knee placements, or of Hip-torso placements, or stance angles for power transmission. Do note, though, he ride with both highbacks 'equal' in lean, she lets the front be more upright, as it ought to be IF you're a directional rider. 

This is way, way, below most of our riding models. However, it does also show the hole you need to climb out of to get where most Carvers are at. AASI hasn't really accepted that a board will carve as it once did (circa '93) nor where it's gone since. Their loss.

 

 

[softbootsurfer]

somebody mention 3 straps  somewhere between HB and SB  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by softbootsurfer
clarity

[philw]

I saw that without the benefit of sound, but I'm amused that she's pushing a knock-kneed approach - that would be late 1980s CK style, perhaps soft boot technology really hasn't moved on from there ;-)