Softboot Duck-Foot Heelside EC Help? lol.

[RyanKnapton]

Most will probably get a good laugh out of what I'm trying here...  I do too... but I want help and maybe someone here has some insight.

This afternoon I placed my bindings towards the toeside of the board so that I would have a little extra clearance on the heelside to play around with trying EC style turns.

With my normal stance, a toeside turn where I purposely lay it down, it feels like an extension of a normal toeside carve. (some examples in the second vid).  But when I put my bindings towards toeside like today, then the board will chatter (example 1:15) in first video.  That same turn is silky smooth most the time with my normal stance... so I'm just contributing that chatter to a bit of boot-out and pressure on the edge releasing at times.

On the heeside when I try to go ECish, It doesn't feel like an extension of my normal heelside carve at all.  I'm kind of going through the correct motions maybe?  but it doesn't feel 'right' at all... (except for when I grab my board... then it feels a bit more normal)...  As you'll see in the vid I start to lose my edge near where I get the board pointing down the hill... Maybe its boot-out, maybe technique.. idk.  And if I try to not angle my board up on edge as much... I can prevent that chatter a bit, but it just feels like I'm faking the turn and doing the limbo.

Next time I try these I'm going to use some risers and put the bindings further towards the toeside to see if that helps any... but maybe there's some other techniques I should try too... Obviously with duck-foot angles its going to be a bit different, but perhaps someone has some tips that might help?

 

[JRAZZ]

Kinda looks like on heelside when you load the board up it "pops" out of the snow.

If you moved your boots towards the toe side it would seem that boot out would be less of a problem.  Maybe the board levers itself away from you (toes down direction) that would in-turn cause it to lose the edge.  That would also explain why it feels better when you grab it.  That way you're levering it back with a lot more force than you can exert with your toes.

 

You know the answer don't you?  Narrow board and hard boots! 

Edited March 14, 2017 by erazz

[Zone]

You are going into unknown territories...and I have no clue.

So...take this with a grain of salt: your butt dragging is taking the pressure off the edge. Looks to me that when you grabbed the edge of the board, your butt no longer touch the ground and you have full pressure on the edge again.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Two bigger issues here Ryan. The first is directly related to the second (and there's a third I'll note, later) When you moved the bindings towards the Toeside, you likely didn't change your highback forwards leans, did ya? So, this puts your knee/hip just a bit "deeper" into the usual 'balance point' you are used to. What, then, does grabbing the toe-edge Crail do?, it shifts you a bit forwards, with stronger angulation. So, 'click' both forward lean setting 1, only 1, click, then ride again. Use 'the edge grab', it's close to 'great form', but may not quite fit your body's natural poise. So, NOW, you are finally in the realm of using 'angulation' to push on the board's edge AWAY from binding-center. Time for two other changes (do only one at-a-time). Quit riding 'Duck', as on heelsisde, all it does is, center your weight and edging in the board's middle. See, it does Not allow for 'projecting' edge pressure Forward of the front foot (as the back foot tends to unweight), and at the turn's end, it keeps you from loading up the tail. In and of this, try to find older ('014?) Technine Bradshaw bindings, the ones with a 'power-wing' highback that wraps partway, towards the board's tip-tail. Rotate the highbacks such that the front hinge-points are set forwards, the rear hinge-points set closer to the heels. This brings the highback more 'in-line' with your board's edge, and lets you now use more Fore/Aft and add pressure to the heel edge. Beware of how this may affect your nose/tail rolls, as more Edge will be involved, an Far Less 'slop' occurs for recovery! My advice on stance angles would be +24F, +12R, more-or-less. Use a bit less forward lean up front than at the rear, so that when your hip moves forwards, you 'connect' with both highbacks smoothly, but can control 'tippiness' as well as utilize torsional twist while on edge.

Toesides; Beware that using 'new-school' Toe-cap straps can lead to 'carving out of your binding', where you tip it enough to physically UNLATCH the toestrap by dragging it through the snow! I try hard to retro-fit old-school toe straps, ones that sit UP ON Top of the boot, not dangle in harm's way by being ahead of the toe. Lifters may not be enough...

And, just so we're clear; I'm not try to take anything away from your current riding style. But, I played with where you're at 20+ years ago, and continued on past it (best ever was 12 blindside noserolls in a row, on a Joyride 153), yet have kept a few of those moves in the repertoire, and can still pull a few off in hardboots (yeah, but, do not take a PJ into pipe; Fakie reverts will kill ya)...You do, though, want to think of 'evolving', and, you're at a point where your stance is limiting some options, ones you want to explore.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Zone]

If Ryan wants to EC, I imagine he needs all inclination and no angulation.

To do that heel side with 15/-15, I imagine he would need to push the penis up to the sky doing the limbo dance (so his butt does not touch), back hand behind the neck for style.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Zone

[lonbordin]

Tough crowd!

Anyone here suggesting that Ryan change his stance or equipment is out of line.

1) Ryan rips. Watch his YouTube channel for video proof.

2) Ryan is leading a whole new generation, dare I say it a movement, into carving.

We need new blood. The folks here are old, yes me too. 

 

[Zone]

3 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Tough crowd!

Anyone here suggesting that Ryan change his stance or equipment is out of line.

1) Ryan rips. Watch his YouTube channel for video proof.

2) Ryan is leading a whole new generation, dare I say it a movement, into carving.

We need new blood. The folks here are old, yes me too. 

 

Completely agree. I hope you don't include me in the 'tough crowd'.

I'm a subscriber to his channel and FB page, love his stuff.

I was trying to imagine what I would do heel side EC if I had 10% of his ability.

[RCrobar]

Hi Ryan

First of all I think that the way you ride and your attitude toward all things snowboarding is refreshing and a real asset to the hardbooting community!  Second, I can't EC in softboots and I don't think I have ever seen anyone EC with a +15 and -15 stance, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.  If anyone can figure out how to do this, and has the ability to do so, my money is on you!

The first place you might want to experiment with is a very deep knee bend at the beginning of your heelside turn.  

Check out your toe side EC, you are almost squatting at the beginning of the turn.  Next look how your legs are straight at the beginning, middle and end of you EC heelside turns that you are having trouble with.  The only time your legs are really bent at the beginning of a heelside turn is when you grab your edge with your hand, forcing you to bend your legs.

I am sure you have seen this video of Funcarve doing EC turns in softies, but just in case here it is again.

Best of luck with your EC efforts.

Cheers

Rob

 

[ursle]

Physics, when you take the weight off the edge, it's no longer carving, your body is, the front edge looks like a carve, hardly any of the weight is removed from the board edge, the rear edge, the body is laid out and it's weighted to the ground, the edge is floating in the air, pure body carving, well, when the back hand grabs the edge, the body isn't on the ground and the board is carving.

Get my point, carving the board requires the edge of the board being weighted, carving the body just needs the body on the snow at speed, yer not booting out, yer bodying out.

[softbootsurfer]

Happens with HB or SB..EC or Outrigger Carving is removing weight from the edge by applying your body parts to the snow...no matter how good you are at it...you will get flutter at times as all the videos of EC clearly show...Tracks no lie and Ryan Carves the Edge as good as anybody...flutter on a regular cambered board comes from letting up on the edge in a Carve or you weigh 150 lbs. and you ride a 210 soft slalom  

Here is a vid of some exceptional EC riders: and the Flutter that can happen while doing it...

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by softbootsurfer

[sic t 2]

A hardware thought:

First is highback adjustment...   but that seems to have been completely covered above.

Second thought is something that has never been mentioned on this site.  When you are carving with low angles you want a binding that sits the boot as low as possible in the toe and high as possible in the heal,, if you expect to get a decent healside.  Since a real carving softboot binding has never been made (well, maybe catek freeride but that was a classic example of overkill) its not easy to accomplish. So I always remove, or grind out, the all-so-popular toe risers.  And then i raise my heals about 3/8" by visiting my local hardware store. This may seem subtle but its a huge contribution to healside/toeside balance at low angles.

To prove it to your self just get into a proper low-angle softboot stance (the slight crouch) in your stocking feet on a hard surface.  Try and raise your heals.  Now try and raise your toes. Now go to the marble saddle that separates your bath from the rug in the house and put your heals on that.  Get into your stance again and repeat the rest.  No need to explain further.

It would be GREAT if Bomber made a low angle softboot binding.  
1.  Light Light Light   Simple Simple Simple
2.  Constructed out of metal and rigid as all hell.
3.  w various industry OEM strap offerings.
4.  w various OEM (or bomber custom) highback options.
5.  offering various heal lift options (and, yes boot fits in highback propertly after the lift).
6.  no cant options as that is the overkill part. 
7.  price doesn't matter since binding base will last forever.  Only the parts attached will change over riders lifetime.  
8.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make this binding.  I am so sick of the garbage that is out there and the planned obsolescence of it all.

[digger jr]

More duct tape!

[ecshredder]

In my opinion you have just found the limit of what is humanly possible. I agree with what a few others have said about losing edge pressure from laying down. I think to keep that from happening you need forward angle in the back.

Still you have amazing talent and you're the best I've ever seen.

[Beckmann AG]

23 hours ago, RyanKnapton said:

but it doesn't feel 'right' at all...

 

It doesn't feel 'right' in part due to affecting the leverage ratios toeside to heelside (you changed  binding offset) without (I assume) tailoring the inputs.

If you're intent on spitting into the wind, study the 'form' so as to stand on the leeward side of things.

I.e., ->Despite all the arm dragging, EC done right involves pressure modulation by way of flexion/extension (aka push-pull), as well as steer/countersteer (usually by way of rotation) as a means of edge engagement.

The problem you're going to have, is that your chosen stance will encourage inadvertent twisting of the board when you flex and extend, and the binding angles block, for the most part, productive rotational movements of the kind required for EC.

Fortunately, you're in with Donek, so maybe Sean will lend/lease/give you one of his isocline plates for testing.

Use one stiffer in torsion, and that should resolve some of the board twist issues (which btw, is why the boards commonly skip and bounce).

Similarly, you can try riding with looser upper boot lacing, such that knee/ankle flexion does not make an accidental lever out of the boot cuff.

[Rob Stevens]

I'm at the same point you are with this. 

What im finding is a lack of pressure on the heel of the rear foot is getting the board to jump out of its line. 

When rotated forward, all the pressure is on the front half of the board. We'll be able to start the turn this way, but not finish it like that. 

As we enter the apex, what we should be looking for is to rotate back to alignment with the stance, pressuring equally, then through the heel of the back foot. I'm guessing it's why you feel more stable when you grab. It's the same for me, where we're likely more squared up  

There's a lot of core strength required to come out of this correct position... it's all abs with little recruitment of the lateral hips, like the hardboot / high angle set can do. 

Youre killing it, just the same. 

[slopestar]

I think you just need more highback?. 

Keep doing what you do Ryan! Heelside wobble was a problem for me on production boards. Sean and his mastery helped with that. I still get it on my twin a little but never felt the wobble on my saber. I think torsion is your enemy here. 

[Technick]

EC Backside turn wont work in "Duck foot", you need proper body rotation to be able to exit the turn... Your left hip should be lightly brushing the snow, not your ass! Look at the bindings angles at the beginning of the video below... 

 

[Rob Stevens]

^ Taking a chance to speak for Ryan as well, he and I refuse to believe your defeatist talk. 

[Corey]

I also struggle to understand why someone must face a certain direction to get lower.  I do agree that you need some kind of rotational pressure pushing the nose sideways into the snow to start the trench, but where the rider is facing should be a minor effect.  

Keep trying stuff Ryan!  I wonder if a larger sidecut radius would help?  It certainly makes it easier on a hardboot setup - less chance of chattering out.  

[RCrobar]

Hi Ryan

Trying to rotate your upper body, with your preferred freestyle/duck set up, has it's complications as others have already mentioned.  I also agree that you are killing it, so I completely understand why you will not change your stance.  I am not sure that laying a turn completely over heelside, with a duck stance, no rotation and the body position that accompanies a duck stance, is actually possible; again as others have mentioned! But then again, maybe it is:)  My money is still on you!

 

Next, I would suggest trying to make your heelside turn more like your toeside turn; try to make them more of a mirror image of each other.  

 

When you do your standard and EC toeside turns, your body remains perpendicular to the board throughout the turn.  When ECing toeside, you may be squatting very low, but you are not reaching, you simply get very low and turn very aggressively.  Your standard and EC toeside turns are very similar, your toeside EC turn feels effortless as a result.  

When doing your standard heelside turn, not ECing, you bend at the waist.  This is not a mistake and am not implying that it is, it is a technical choice.  Your heel side turn is very strong, the cool thing is that you are able to do it so smoothly both regular and goofy!  The problem, however, is that your natural instinct is to keep your upper body away from the snow when turning heelside.  Maybe it is better to say that you prefer to keep your upper body perpendicular to the snow when turning heelside, but your EC goal is to get your entire body parallel horizontal to the snow and remain carving.  Your natural instincts and goals are in opposition.

I would suggest doing a lot of heelside turns where you don't try to EC at all.  Try doing a lot of turns where you bend at the knees very low, then extend ... but do not bend at the waist, teach yourself to keep your upperbody perpendicular to the board throughout the turn.  This is what I meant when I suggested making your heel and toe side turns more of a mirror of each other as this is how you already turn toeside.  I have attached a few pictures to illustrate this idea.

 

Couple Duck Stance EC Ideas:

Performing a heelside in a duck stance position, as you lean over more and more and do not bend at the waist, will have your back facing and getting closer to the snow.  That said, your videos show that you can get a 'small' amount of rotation and carve nicely.  I believe that you could find a balance between a small amount of rotation that does not pull your rear edge out of the snow; you do not need to rotate to the full '+' position.  This makes me wonder if it is possible to use your lead shoulder/shoulder blade as the only point that touches the snow, this will be a blind leap of faith for sure!  I imagine both arms tight to your body.  To get back up, quickly pressuring your lead foot to get the board to sharply turn under you, as you simultaneously push off with your lead upper arm, might pop you back up ... that and a bunch of sit ups at home:)  A really steep run, some soft snow and BX body armor ideally would make the learning process possible and less painful.  Maybe these brainwaves might spark another idea?

Seeing you pull off duck stance, fully laid out and linked EC turns is a Youtube video I'd love to watch!

Don't forget the ShoeGoo, Silkaflex and Duct Tape!!!

Cheers

Rob

Edited March 17, 2017 by RCrobar

[Technick]

50 minutes ago, corey_dyck said:

I also struggle to understand why someone must face a certain direction to get lower.  I do agree that you need some kind of rotational pressure pushing the nose sideways into the snow to start the trench, but where the rider is facing should be a minor effect.  

Keep trying stuff Ryan!  I wonder if a larger sidecut radius would help?  It certainly makes it easier on a hardboot setup - less chance of chattering out.  

Because when you flex your knees, with a "Duck Feet" stance without enough rotation, your ass will it stick out too much over your heel edge. It will hit the snow, remove the edge pressure then make you fall. You need to rotate your hips so when you flex your knees, your ass goes down over your rear boot You won't be able to rotate your hips enough in a Duck Feet stance.

[Technick]

Picture on the left, knees fully flexed with hip rotation, ass over the rear boot... On the right, ass sticking out, it the snow, lose control.

[Technick]

... Another thought about heelside chatter: You probably apply a more equal pressure with both feets when you grab the board, less so when you try to extend your body EC style. With the back foot not pointing forward there is a good chance that you do not have the same pressure on both feets, that you are twisting the board witch could cause the chatter. Typical EC board have high torsional stifness.

[Zone]

I summarize Rob's  lengthy but excellent dissertation for you (he's been doing EC since the predawn of Swoard) : do the limbo and stick your pipi in the air , ass away from the snow :-)

We can't do half what you're doing so keep doing what your doing (and do post the videos).

Be that first guy doing EC duck 15/-15 both side.

[Rob Stevens]

5 hours ago, Technick said:

Thanks for these screen grabs, Technick.

I had a pretty great day today going after posture like the bottom right.

 The turns where it felt easiest were ones started like RCrobar suggests...

Starting with a really lateral line across the hill and very low. Low like the main pic on the left, without the twist, though. Aligned and as low as I could be, I went for left ass cheek / hip, and forearm as early and simultaneously as possible. Not shoulder blade or back... that's pretty far away (you could get there, but forearm and hip on snow is pretty f'in low!). "Rotation-wise, openness was only as far as my torso pointing in the same direction as my front foot  I'm at 35.

The early start was clutch...  An exceptionally brief flat-based and aligned moment, as the torso opens slightly to the apex, had the edge working really early. Get that right and you have the base of support to stabilize against, controlling the descent to your side. If you have no platform to work from, it all falls apart, with much sticking out of ass.

 

** For some reason, the next bit I wrote separated into another part. I go and and on, below...

5 hours ago, Technick said:

 Going through the turn, the edge angle wasn't really high... like 45 + a bit. That was fine, but as the board came around and I had to ball up again for the exit, edge angle would fall off some. Knowing that, if I went no higher or more forward with the trailing arm than in Ryan's pic, bringing the back hand down into an almost grab of the back toe, I'd have the most even pressure possible and solid alignment. It was still a serious abdominal effort , combined with occasional perfect timing, to rise up without breaking at the waist. If it came together, I'd be back to my feet in a low position again.

 With the binding angles, the most difficult part is keeping enough pressure as the edge angle is decreasing towards the moment you try and stand. Lots of forward lean and little to no overhang are both advised. With a wider board ($ coming for the Sasquatch, Jack, and Sean at Donek... if you're reading this, I'm still working on graphics for the custom), I'm expecting to have a bit more resistance to stand against at the switch. 

 Honestly... I don't know why I waited so long to really get after this.