Park and glade runs on an alpine snowboard?

[Lj94]

Hello! 

I saw a couple people using alpine snowboards last time I was at my local mountain and was interested in trying it myself. I have been riding with soft boots and all for a while now and was interested in the crazy carves alpine snowboarders perform. With that being said, is this style of boarding possible for parks and tree runs? Or is it mostly for wider runs of the mountain only? Thanks! 

[BlueB]

I guess it would be more of a question of hard boots and plate bindings for freeriding or freestyling... Because you don't have to go a full-on carving/race board for those things. There are hard boot specific boards built for pow and freeride. Some of those, or smaller all-mountain alpine boards work for park too. 

[Jack M]

It is possible.  There are All-Mountain alpine boards available like the Donek Axxess, Prior 4x4, Coiler All-Mountain, etc.  These boards are built to carve well on the corduroy, but compared to a typical alpine-only board they're wider, softer, have a bigger nose for better powder float and a rounded tail with a small upturn.  Tweaking airs or sliding rails will be difficult to the point of why bother.  But getting air and busting an old school method or tail grab or Indy in hardboots is fun once you get used to it, and it confuses the park regulars.  Half pipe is possible too.  However using hardboots like this is kind of like putting snow tires on a sports car for winter driving.  You're still limited and the technique is different than if you had optimal equipment for the task at hand.

In the mean time you can get started without buying anything by really carving your softboot setup on an easy trail.  The test to see if you're ready for hardboots is if you can carve your downhill edge.  That is, can you make C-shaped carves and change edges while the board is still pointing across the hill.  Here is some reading on that:

http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/The-Norm-Part-I.pdf

After you do that, to get more of an idea of what alpine snowboarding is like, angle both your bindings forward, like 36/24, and try again.

There's an All-Mountain Hardbooting forum here too:

http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/forum/77-all-mountain-hardbooting/

[sic t 2]

13 hours ago, Lj94 said:

Hello! 

snip... With that being said, is this style of boarding possible for parks and tree runs? Or is it mostly for wider runs of the mountain only? Thanks! 

Well....what you are not noticing is that in hardboots your legs tend to be very tightly wound.  This limits mobility but greatly enhances the carve you admire so much.  Taking a big twisting/flipping fall in soft boots is a moment for self deprecating laughter. Same fall in hard boots is dancing with the injury devil.  The whole concept is not a great idea. I hope that answers your park question.  As for trees, yes a godlike, word class hardbooter can do it. Most mortals no way (cause of lack of mobility/stability at zero speeds when you are debating how to miss the big oak, yet turn before you hit the granite boulder).  In fact, just remaining upright during that moment of thought is a task.

Basically, for the first year or so, think only wide open trails (blues) for new hardbooters.

[b0ardski]

34 minutes ago, sic t 2 said:

  As for trees, yes a godlike, word class hardbooter can do it. Most mortals no way (cause of lack of mobility/stability at zero speeds when you are debating how to miss the big oak, yet turn before you hit the granite boulder).  In fact, just remaining upright during that moment of thought is a task.

Basically, for the first year or so, think only wide open trails (blues) for new hardbooters.

as an off piste hardboot god I'm calling bullschite on this one, stop scaring away the newbies. Riding trees well is more about board type and stance and boot flex (as in "mobility/stability at zero speeds").  If you already know how to ride THE SPACES BETWEEN THE TREES, then using an appropriate setup hard shells is no big deal. I'm not about to go in there with a plated square tail and race boots but an all mountain hard boot set up is BIG FUN in glades and pow.

as to park, injury waiting to happen on a stiff set up

Edited January 23, 2017 by b0ardski

[Corey]

32 minutes ago, sic t 2 said:

Well....what you are not noticing is that in hardboots your legs tend to be very tightly wound.

I think you may need to tweak something in your cant/lift/angles.  If you can't comfortably stand in your living room for 5 minutes while clipped in, then something isn't set up optimally for you.   

[MNSurfer]

24 minutes ago, b0ardski said:

as an off piste hardboot god I'm calling bullschite on this one, stop scaring away the newbies. Riding trees well is more about board type and stance and boot flex (as in "mobility/stability at zero speeds").  If you already know how to ride THE SPACES BETWEEN THE TREES, then using an appropriate setup hard shells is no big deal. I'm not about to go in there with a plated square tail and race boots but an all mountain hard boot set up is BIG FUN in glades and pow.

as to park, injury waiting to happen on a stiff set up

Personally, I ride an Axxess in glades and trees. Works great! Except for when the above comes into question. Higher binding angles (vs. Duck-foot) + moseying through trees = a long, long day. Tips-up, speed-up.

 

As far as parks go, sure it's an injury waiting to happen. But carve boards tend to be (for the most part) vastly more expensive than their softboot siblings. Park jonesing? Grab a $100 softboot, beater ride and kick the crap out of that. You'll save a couple thousand bucks in gear, and/or tens of thousands in hospital bills. 

 

 

 

[Dan]

Yeah, it's more about the board than the boot/binding. I ride steep trees with hardboots on a pow board and it works great. I'm awful at freestyle, but have taken a BX board in the park with hard boots and it's OK, though definitely not the tool of choice. I wouldn't take a full on race board to either of those places - more work than fun, especially in steep trees. 

[philw]

2 hours ago, sic t 2 said:

... what you are not noticing is that in hardboots your legs tend to be very tightly wound.  .... Same fall in hard boots is dancing with the injury devil.  The whole concept is not a great idea. I hope that answers your park question.  As for trees, yes a godlike, word class hardbooter can do it. Most mortals no way (cause of lack of mobility/stability at zero speeds when you are debating how to miss the big oak, yet turn before you hit the granite boulder).  

I disagree.

Many hard boot riders are stiff, but this is a ride issue and you don't need to be. I have ridden with many soft booters who are surprised at the mobility possible on hard boots. They have met bad hard boot riders.

I don't fall much, but I have fallen, and I don't think there's much difference in the fall across boot types. Sure, I'm usually going faster than soft booters, but I have more control so I can dump that speed easier.

Trees. I've ridden with world class soft-booters who can ride trees, plus plenty of hard booters. It's a skill, it needs practice. The trick, and this is where I differ from most hard booters, is to use the right board for the snow you're in. So forget "hard boot" tree boards and get something designed for trees, stick your hard boots on it, and get the job done. Sure, my girlfriends regularly call me a god, but everyone has to learn, and it was easy enough. If you have stability problems your board is probably too narrow; mobility you have in spades with hard boots because you can shift your weight quicker than soft booters.

Park? Who cares?

[lonbordin]

16 hours ago, Lj94 said:

is this style of boarding possible for parks and tree runs? Or is it mostly for wider runs of the mountain only?

Are we missing OPs question?  

1) Are they asking if you can carve on park and tree runs or just wide runs only?

Or

2) Are they asking if you can ride with "this style of boarding" in parks and trees?

If it's #1 the answer is yes. Often park runs are some of the least tracked and most fun carving runs on the mountain.

If it's #2 the answer is still yes but with all the caveats from the proceeding answers.

[Lj94]

Thanks for all the answers guys! 

What I am getting from this is that tree runs are possible but it would require a good deal of practice on greens and blues before I would even try those. And that there are multiple types of boards that can be used with hard boots/ plate bindings and that I'd be looking for an all mountain board. I looked over the document for buying an alpine snowboard (though Id honestly just borrow someone else's or rent to try it out) and came to the conclusion that a board that is shorter and has smaller radii would be sufficient? 

What I am getting about park action with hard boots is that riding this way increases the possibility of injury and is very limited due to how locked in you are. The gear is also much more expensive so beating it up on rails or boxes wouldn't be a great idea.  I mostly posed the question because id be boarding with friends who like to hit the parks and I wouldn't mind being able to hit a box or jump while in hard boots. I also think it'd be cool in general to be able to hit some features with hard boots. But freeriding was mostly what I was interested about.

I already have a fairly new soft boot setup that I could dedicate to park riding if I came to like this form of snowboarding. With that being said I'm a college student so getting the cash to throw down on a set up may take a bit! XD

Does this all seem correct? If there is anything Im missing please let me know! 

 

[lonbordin]

4 minutes ago, Lj94 said:

or jump while in hard boots.

Check out the profile pic of http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/profile/2721-jburrill/

Also scroll through this topic- 

 

Are hard boots the best at everything, no.  Can you do almost anything, yes.

[queequeg]

20 hours ago, Lj94 said:

Hello! 

I saw a couple people using alpine snowboards last time I was at my local mountain and was interested in trying it myself. I have been riding with soft boots and all for a while now and was interested in the crazy carves alpine snowboarders perform. With that being said, is this style of boarding possible for parks and tree runs? Or is it mostly for wider runs of the mountain only? Thanks! 

It's somewhat subjective. Some people (like PhillW, PaulK, and Jim Callen) kill it riding hardboots in all conditions. I don't and I find that most mere mortals are similar. I'm talking about getting down in style and having fun, as opposed to just surviving. Here is my experience with this:

I rode softies when I started like almost everyone else. Switched exclusively to hardboots for a number of years, stopped snowboarding for a few years, continued riding hardboots exclusively, experimented a bit with trying to make the hardboots work on a pow deck, and eventually added a set of softies into the mix for riding trees and pow. In college I used to ride the backside of Willamette Pass my Burton PJ and Ride Kildy ... mostly on the basis that owning a separate snowboard and boots for pow and trees was a level of decadence well beyond my grasp. I had some success but man would I have preferred to be on something wider, lighter, shorter and more flickable. When I started snowboarding again I found myself more and more frustrated when I encountered less than ideal conditions for a stiff carving setup. I experimented with using super flexy f2 "proflex" bindings on a short pow-deck with my UPZ's in walk mode and loosely bucked. This worked a bit better but still sucked. Having the UPZ's loosely bucked led to painful hotspots and having them tight didn't allow the sort of subtle inputs I needed to make. It was somewhat better than a full carving/race setup but it's shortcomings were obvious. It started to become obvious that I needed softer boots, so I spent a few days in Jackson Hole on softies in the steep and deep and it was like a goddamn miracle of happiness. I had insane amounts of fun and immediately decided that I would never ride hardboots in pow/trees again if I could avoid it.

I've had some fun days shooting through not-so-dense trees on mellow slopes on a race deck. And yeah, you can totally make pow turns on a big race deck (particularly a modern one with a decambered nose and wide waist). But for steep, deep and narrow I would never even attempt it again on hardboots. 

YMMV but IMO: choose the correct tool for the job and you will be happier.

Insofar as the park goes: as others have mentioned: prime real estate for ripping turns on pristine cord when the rest of the mountain is destroyed. I might hop over a little tabletop jump or whatnot on a race deck but that's about it ... otherwise I think you're inviting a severe reprimand from the laws of physics. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by queequeg

[BlueB]

Park is perfectly doable on hard boots. You need a right setup though, and like for everything, practice, practice, practice... 

Also check this thread: http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/33396-hard-boots-not-only-for-carving/&

I'd even put my head on a block that you'd be able to do bigger and longer straight air than your buddies, with ease. Then, once you mastered a switch approach or landing, watch the jaws dropping ;) 

As for rails/boxes, they are doable. The spins on those can get pretty nasty, though. But then, who cares for the rails, they don't belong in a mountain anyhow... 

[Dan]

3 hours ago, Lj94 said:

Thanks for all the answers guys! 

What I am getting from this is that tree runs are possible but it would require a good deal of practice on greens and blues before I would even try those. And that there are multiple types of boards that can be used with hard boots/ plate bindings and that I'd be looking for an all mountain board. I looked over the document for buying an alpine snowboard (though Id honestly just borrow someone else's or rent to try it out) and came to the conclusion that a board that is shorter and has smaller radii would be sufficient? 

What I am getting about park action with hard boots is that riding this way increases the possibility of injury and is very limited due to how locked in you are. The gear is also much more expensive so beating it up on rails or boxes wouldn't be a great idea.  I mostly posed the question because id be boarding with friends who like to hit the parks and I wouldn't mind being able to hit a box or jump while in hard boots. I also think it'd be cool in general to be able to hit some features with hard boots. But freeriding was mostly what I was interested about.

I already have a fairly new soft boot setup that I could dedicate to park riding if I came to like this form of snowboarding. With that being said I'm a college student so getting the cash to throw down on a set up may take a bit! XD

Does this all seem correct? If there is anything Im missing please let me know! 

 

Hey Lj94, I think you're on the right track with the above. Definitely makes sense to hold on to your current setup and make it your dedicated park riding rig. As far as a carving board, I have a beginner-friendly board / binding setup that you could borrow or buy for cheap, say $100. I'm not expecting to pass through Corvallis any time soon, but you could pickup here in Portland or I could ship. The board is an Oxygen F-67, with a few dents and dings, but nothing that would impact usability. Pics here http://s47.photobucket.com/user/danonbol/library/Oxygen F-67?sort=6&page=1. It would be a good learning board for anyone up to about 175 pounds, I think. Above that I think you would outgrow it pretty quickly, though it could still be good for your first few days. The bindings are some entry level F2 bindings, I'm not sure of the model name. 

Can't help with boots though, unfortunately. Let me know if you're interested. 

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

The last really comfy 'square tail' Alpine board i had that i could push in the park was my '97 Hot Shine (a gift, btw, but what an excellent gift!) 162cm.  You might notice it was the only nose-roll kept in the olden ECES Vid, and then see it in the CMC Challenge going under the lift to the left of the trail, up the bank.. Playful, was a good word for it (it went to the photog of the CMC challenge, but b4 I knew she'd call my Tanker a burton.. Dang, that smarted..) When I ran Rad-Air Soul Asyms, I would often go romp parks, as they were better (having an upturned tail) than PJ/M's from Burton, which, well, the Burton's dang near killed me going Fakie, that Tail was a Scorpion-ish Whip awaiting the instant it could SLAM you on yer Arse!!  But, as for hardshells in pipe/park/woods, my Rad-Air Tankers always just ruled there, no big issues. And my trusty Gordo Sym/Asym (it's only a 151, but stiff, with tight sidecuts, different on each edge) does rails, boxes, stairs, accordians, and most under 45* kickers with ease. In the Pipe, length works against you, as do stiffer flexes. So, softer/shorter is better. When you go from edges o the flat, you need to go FLAT in the tranny and then aim up/across/spin on the wall. Edging in the tran is possible, but it's a LATE move. Edge on the wall is NUTS, DEATH, DUMB, and DON'T DO IT!, Foo!! , but I see it all the time. Best Hardbot park board in my quiver is my World Wide 153, set centered, at 36F, 9R, 22", with a 27cm waist. It rips it.