Thermoflex liners too soft?

[Beckmann AG]

6 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Did he censor you? I must have missed it. Seems he responded quite reasonably despite how derogatory your tone was and is. 

Neil,

We have our points of contention, but you know I’m not in the habit of fabricating drama.  That your raptor eye missed the deletions needn’t cause doubt as to what transpired.

 

In the event you’re unaware, the point of censorship is to manage perception. 

Perception, as noted, plays a large part in retail, how we choose to equip ourselves, and where in the sport we want to operate.

 

Say I made a subjective, sweeping statement, based on what might be limited experience, and the perceptions formed therein. If you questioned the veracity of that statement, I wouldn’t regard your objection as derogatory, unless you were significantly more condescending than usual. 

 

Rather, I’d provide a reasoned response to support my position.

 

In the event I typed myself into a corner, the last thing I’d do is censor my way out of it.

[Jack M]

I think part of the confusion here is that Beckman is, as usual, advising on how to achieve maximum performance.  Jim is approaching from the angle of what would suit a more recreational rider.  Those two requirements are often met with different solutions.  Group hug?

I take my carving kind of seriously and I do some beer league racing and Thermoflex DEL 141 have been fine for me.  I could probably do better with Intuition or injected liners, but, meh.  Most importantly, no liner conversation matters until you have real custom footbeds/orthotics.

[Aracan]

The closer I read the postings in this thread, the more trouble I have in making sense of it (that may well include my own postings). As far as I can tell, there is a noble goal to be achieved, namely, optimal performance, which includes or even presupposes optimal comfort, since lack of comfort will of course influence performance negatively. It takes time and money to get there. Therefore less performance may be acceptable as long as it can be achieved with less outlay of time and money while providing similar levels of comfort.

It definitely makes sense for me as a recreational rider to prioritize optimal comfort offer optimal feedback. As a racer I would probably accept a certain level of discomfort (for the duration of a run) in exchange for higher performance. Indeed, racers often unbuckle at the finish before they even get out of their bindings. I guess there is a reason for that.

The rub, of course, would lie in determining what level of performance beneath optimal is still acceptable. Which in turn seems impossible before one has experienced what lies at the desirable end of the spectrum. Oh, the humanity ...

[trailertrash]

7 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Did he censor you?

 

Yes, he did. What a way to lose credibility quick. Notice the forum doesn't show that Jim edited Erik's posts but he did.

Keep in mind Erik has decades of experience in boot fitting.

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

44 minutes ago, trailertrash said:

 

Yes, he did. What a way to lose credibility quick. Notice the forum doesn't show that Jim edited Erik's posts but he did.

Keep in mind Erik has decades of experience in boot fitting.

 

I mean, did he censor the original post as opposed to selectively quoting in his response? The former is troubling, the latter is SOP and preferred, at least by me. 

[softbootsurfer]

Jim lives in Colorado, Snow conditions play a role in any equipment selections...Racing or Racing conditions which prevail on the Ice Coast are cause for different approaches to Boots and or Liners...Big Difference between Racing and Recreation, as Big as the Difference between running a GS down straw pile on Aspen Mt. on a prepared course and running that same run after a foot of Pow and first day groom, High side comes to mind...

Thermoflex Liners to Soft?  is like asking if the Snow in Colorado is to soft

To Soft for What ?

 

[trailertrash]

He removed lines of Erik's original post to fit his narrative.

It's a bit more than troubling.

 

[Beckmann AG]

12 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Most importantly, no liner conversation matters until you have real custom footbeds/orthotics.

I vividly recall your first run on solid footbeds. You were yanking the tiger by the tail all the way down Spillway.

 "What's the matter Plake, something change down there?"

12 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Group hug?

Recent developments make that difficult. I can't sink to that level.

[Beckmann AG]

12 hours ago, Aracan said:

The closer I read the postings in this thread, the more trouble I have in making sense of it (that may well include my own postings). As far as I can tell, there is a noble goal to be achieved, namely, optimal performance, which includes or even presupposes optimal comfort, since lack of comfort will of course influence performance negatively. It takes time and money to get there. Therefore less performance may be acceptable as long as it can be achieved with less outlay of time and money while providing similar levels of comfort.

It definitely makes sense for me as a recreational rider to prioritize optimal comfort offer optimal feedback. As a racer I would probably accept a certain level of discomfort (for the duration of a run) in exchange for higher performance. Indeed, racers often unbuckle at the finish before they even get out of their bindings. I guess there is a reason for that.

The rub, of course, would lie in determining what level of performance beneath optimal is still acceptable. Which in turn seems impossible before one has experienced what lies at the desirable end of the spectrum. Oh, the humanity ...

'Optimal performance' and comfort need not be mutually exclusive. It's just that there are  enough variables affecting both that most users can't bother to address them, and therefore settle for something in the middle. If, as recent events suggest, you don't know what you're missing, you don't much care that it's missing.

Perhaps the most important part of the process is finding a shell that very closely matches the entire contour of your foot, and to lesser extent, lower leg. That's rather difficult when you have only two choices.

It's easy to dismiss the importance of feedback, until you consider that time is directly related to distance, and that the longer it takes to recognize what's going on with the board, the closer you might get to disaster. Unlike changing things, like boot ramp, canting, etc, there is no adaptation period or functional drawback to a cleaner feedback loop. It's just one very effective part of the overall performance picture.

Incidentally, some of that boot buckling stuff is fetishistic affect. Usually the boots are fit close enough that they don't really need to be buckled. Closing the buckles just keeps the snow on the outside.

It's mostly a matter of if you prefer dial-up, dsl, cable, or that fancy fibreoptic stuff. 

[Beckmann AG]

12 hours ago, softbootsailer said:

Jim lives in Colorado, Snow conditions play a role in any equipment selections...Racing or Racing conditions which prevail on the Ice Coast are cause for different approaches to Boots and or Liners..

You're snarking up the wrong tree. The feedback loop governing our ability to achieve equilibrium might be affected by altitude, but not longitude or latitude.

Don't know what's up with your east/west angst, but you've ground that axe down to the helve without cutting much of anything.

You've got this passive/aggressive tendency to turn every 'technical' discussion into a rehash of Clown vs Board of Education.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

All edits aside, I still stand by my post; It's a Win-Win for molding up TF/Intuition liners. Not to confuse anyone.

[lordmetroland]

This is outstanding. In this thread alone, I've learned two new words, "zepper" and "helve." All this time, I thought those were the two missing Marx Brothers.

[lowrider]

At this point in the discussion i feel like saying something but i'd better not . I think i'm in enough trouble. Just got back from the snow show in Toronto and it looks like there are some great deals out there in the way of accommodations and lift tickets to be had both north and south of the border.

[Beckmann AG]

10 hours ago, lordmetroland said:

This is outstanding. In this thread alone, I've learned two new words, "zepper" and "helve." All this time, I thought those were the two missing Marx Brothers.

Almost went with 'haft' but realized you'd trot out Mr Hayes, and then we'd have trouble.

 

To clarify: lines of the post in question were removed as they violated Rule number one of the forum: no slandering or calling into disrepute another member of this forum.  I did not want to remove the whole post, as there was still good content that added to the discussion.  The poster was notified of the changes via pm (Beckmann- I realize now the exchange could have been more specific as to how the original verbiage was against the rules and guidelines of the forum).

What we have learned here is that going forward, posts that contain issues related to the rules and guidelines of the forum will be removed as a whole and the member notified as such so they can edit and repost. 

The irony here is palpable. You’ve just demonstrated that your knowledge of slander is on par with your understanding of boots, materials, and athletic performance.

 

First, what I said could not possibly have been construed as being defamatory, which is to say, something that damages your reputation. Second, if I had, I would have committed libel, not slander.

 

Experience dictates understanding.

Understanding influences perspective.

Perspective varies within a population.

Preference is affected by what we value.

History is often forgotten to one’s detriment.

 

—>None of those, original or paraphrase, defame or otherwise harm reputation.

 

What I said might have dinged your ego, but most certainly did not violate Rule Number One.

 

On the other hand, with your quoted post, you’ve published claims about me which you know are untrue. 

To that end, you might want to read up a bit on what is, and is not, defamation.

 

‘We’ have learned, beyond doubt, how you react to criticism. 

 

Salting the earth won’t help the harvest.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Beckmann AG
Other means of answering the charge were blocked.

[Jack M]

In 25 years I have never known Erik to slander anyone.  He is an expert coach, and as a coach, he is going to tell you things that may not be pleasant to hear but are intended to help you improve yourself.  Blocking him from posting in this thread or anywhere else is ridiculous.

[Jack M]

2 minutes ago, Jim Callen said:

No one has been blocked from posting.

Glad to hear it but he says he is unable to post in this thread anymore.  I suggested refreshing his browser.

[lowrider]

I think the best resolution to the present situation is snow and lots of it !

[softbootsurfer]

11 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

You're snarking up the wrong tree. The feedback loop governing our ability to achieve equilibrium might be affected by altitude, but not longitude or latitude.

Don't know what's up with your east/west angst, but you've ground that axe down to the helve without cutting much of anything.

You've got this passive/aggressive tendency to turn every 'technical' discussion into a rehash of Clown vs Board of Education.

I am simply going by the comments I have heard from Carvers that come here from back east, as well as Skiers over the last 50 years, everyone has said that the conditions of the Snow Here are typically way dryer and softer...and Racing Courses are way different than just going down a groomed run...I simply looked at the original post here about Thermo liners to soft? and made a comment that maybe that question was short on what the poster was trying to achieve. When I did some Ski racing, I would tighten the buckles to the max and added a strap on top, when I skied around the rest of the time they were much looser...as for your east west comment, that has never been my intent, sorry if you feel that way

Passive/Aggressive tendency, Technical Rehash, Clown vs Board of Education...WOW 

[b0ardski]

intuition pro race is way stiff w/plastic tongue if you want performance. I swap out liners all the time in both raichle/deluxe and different AT boots. can totally change the overall boot flex pattern; wraparounds flex less than tongue style yet may be softer foam, and visa-versa; my AT liners are molded and include a soft flexing plastic tongue and rearward flex zone for walking/skinning, swap with race liners and you have 2 boots in one for soft or hard snow.

[Beckmann AG]

This post has been removed.

 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Jim Callen

[Beckmann AG]

On the topic of materials and athletic performance.

 

Back in ’99 or ’00, I was contracted to do some work with a college ski team, At that point, I had been running my own boot shop for maybe 3 years, having dabbled in the ‘dank arts’ since about ’86.

(Some of what I’ve learned can be found under the ‘alpine skiing’ header here:

http://beckmannag.com/alpine-skiing)

 

One girl in particular was struggling to reach her known potential in new boots. I saw her ski the previous season in her old boots, and there was obviously something wrong.

So we went through the usual sequence. Proper foot support, boot ramp, forward lean and cuff alignment. 

Things improved, but only just.

Finally, the coach said “Enough!”, called in a favor at Salomon, and put her in a pair of their ‘race-room’ shells. Close last, thin liner, ‘bright’ plastic.

As the coach related to me shortly thereafter, she got off the lift, made two turns, stopped, and took both skis off and stared at the bases. For the first time in months she could feel the snow. The season improved markedly from there.

The other girls on boots from that same manufacturer (rhymes with Tecnica) were summarily switched to the Salomon product, and they skied like a fog had lifted.

 

“That’s racing” you say. Has nothing to do with ‘recreational’ activity.

Fine. Keep thinking that way.

 

A few years ago, in another phase of debugging and refining the introductory snowboard learning program, I contracted with a custom builder,  then co-designed and produced several iterations of a snowboard for ‘novices’.

Working with the ’gliding public’ on a full-time basis since 1990, I had already resolved most of the obstacles to a successful outcome, addressing the teaching methodology, skill sequencing and boot/binding configuration.

(Additional thoughts can be found under the ‘hard and softboot snowboard(ing)’ headers.

http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding)

 

 ‘Learn-to’ lessons usually involve rental gear, and if you’ve ever used that stuff, you know it’s like riding fruit leather.

So we opted for ‘cost no object’ materials, just to see what the ‘unwashed’ could appreciate, and what effect that might bring.  Nothing exotic, just what you’d expect to find in a quality custom build.

We did blind trials involving ’never-evers’, riders of modest skill, and those with many years of experience. The verbal feedback was the same ‘across the board’. 

Pun intended.

Without exception, all participants noted that they were drastically more aware of their relation to the snow, and the impact of their inputs to the board.

Extrinsically, that awareness had a noticeable influence on body language, and an interest in exploring, rather than holding back from, skill boundaries.

 

For the ‘first-timer’, spatial awareness is critical, as it offsets the fear and hesitancy associated with unfamiliar movement on a ‘strange’ platform.

 

(The development budget precluded boot testing as a logical extension of this process, but one would expect to find similar results).

 

I could relate a few more instances involving my own experience on XC, alpine and telemark equipment, and a pair of mountain bike shoes rebuilt with carbon fiber.

And a few observations on Keen v Asolo hiking boots. 

 

That would be time wasted, however, on account of my being an unreliable witness. 

 

Regardless, materials matter, as our ability to remain ‘upright’ depends on our sense of touch. Anything that dulls that sense will dampen performance, while anything that brightens it will improve ‘performance’, regardless of skill level.

 

Understand that this is not the same thing as going from a ‘soft’ flexing boot to a ‘stiff’ flexing boot, or from a soft board to a stiffer board. Those affect riding well beyond the simple ‘understanding’, of inputs and their subsequent effects on a rider’s equilibrium.

 

As mentioned in a previous post, using one material for the entire liner is a tradeoff. Specifically, what you gain in foot support and sensitivity often compromises ankle articulation. Composition liners allow the manufacturer to obtain one without detriment to the other.

 

If one goal of recreational riding is to move with ease across the snow, then it stands to reason that materials tuning, when available, has the potential to enhance the experience for anyone that cares to pursue it.

Not just the privileged 1%-ers like myself.

 

 

Hopefully that ‘clarifies’ my position, and whereof I speak. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Beckmann AG
Space, the final frontier.

[west carven]

howdy

so are Thermoflex liners too soft?... you lost me at "On the topic of..."

[Beckmann AG]

Golly West, sure would like to oblige, but Google Translate doesn't yet offer 'English to Finger paint'.

Be patient though, niche markets eventually get served.

[west carven]

the ignore feature wasn't fast enough...

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Golly West, sure would like to oblige, but Google Translate doesn't yet offer 'English to Finger paint'.

Be patient though, niche markets eventually get served.

You know, you would probably get more people to listen if you weren't so rude, insulting and condescending about it.