Newbie looking for advice

[olshitsky]

All,

I've been directed here by a few people, but most importantly Sean @Donek .  About 7 or 8 years ago, I made a conscious decision to really focus on carving with my soft boot setup.  I angled my bindings forward and started leaning over as much as possible.  In 2010, I bought a Donek (I believe it's called Ride...but maybe an Incline).  I found the stiffest soft boots I could find and kept a real forward stance with my bindings.  Since then, I've always focused on laying out carves as much as possible, but this is an all-mountain freestyle board with a soft boot setup, so I'm obviously limited.  The thing is, I love going over bumps, popping in out and of trees, and doing the steep un-groomed stuff.

I live in Chicago and only make 2 (maybe 3) trips out west per year.  My friends that I ride with are also very "all-mountain."  So I don't really have the luxury of dedicating an entire day to one type of riding...and realistically, I probably wouldn't want to anyway.

I want to take the plunge and go hard boot.  I'm thinking of the Donek Axxess.  Per the website and some correspondence with Sean, it's the board to do all-mountain riding. 

A few questions:  does anybody ride on those terrain types I just mentioned in hard boots?  Am I being realistic in looking for a board/plate-binding/hard-boot setup that will allow me the versatility to carve really hard but still enjoy non-groomed runs?

If that is the board, how tight should my sidecut radii be?  When I bought my first Donek, the cuts were a little wider and I noticed I couldn't make as sharp as turns as I was used to (especially in the bumps and/or trees), but I eventually got used to it.  What I've come to love is how it handles at higher speeds.  Not sure I want to give that up, but I'm concerned the stiffness of the board and the boots will limit my maneuverability.  Do I compensate by getting a tighter radii?

Finally, in regards to equipment:  any definitive binding that would fit my riding preferences?  and how does one go about selecting a boot?  I rented a carving board from Bomber 2 years ago, and though I liked the carving, the boots were not comfortable and ultimately caused me to cut my day short.  If I live in Chicago, any suggestions on how to try them out?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

jeff

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hi Jeff. I'm one of the few guys here that does what you want to do. You want a relatively wide-waisted board that will let you run lower angles. I'm a size 27 and run 21.5 or 22 cm waists which allow me to be around 50 degrees. The Axxess would be fine, other alternatives are the Coiler AM or Prior 4WD. My boards are a Coiler AM 167 and a Coiler Nirvana 180.

You want some bindings with a little give: if you buy Bomber I recommend Sidewinders. I use F2 Titanflex step-ins. Finally you want a softer boot. I am running old Raichle 224s. The current equivalent would be the Deeluxe SB225. The 325 could also work depending on your size. 

I take my rig everywhere. I love bumps, pow & steeps. Groomers are fine but they bore me after a while. 

[charliechocolate]

Another all-mountain hardbooter here. Wannabe, at least.

You can absolutely get an all-mountain hardboot setup. You're on the track with the Axxess. As for bindings, you might want to consider a pair softer-flexing F2 Carve-RS for the kind of riding you want to do.

Boots are going to be tough. Measure your boot size using the instructions here http://bomberonline.3dcartstores.com/How-to-Size-my-Boots_ep_76-1.html or go to a bootfitter in your area. Order a pair in your size, walk around in your living room and see how comfortable you are in them. Try different brands. Return what doesn't work. As far as I know, there aren't any brick-and-mortar retailers of snowboard hardboots apart from Bomber where you can go and try on the boots.

[workshop7]

My philosophy is different than Neil's and Charliechocolate's.  I've been riding hardboots since 1990.  I live and do most of my riding in New England.  In 2002 I started making a yearly, one to two week trip to CO.  After the first couple of those I started riding softboots while there.  In 2008 we started having kids and I found myself riding softboots even at home for the convenience.  For the last four years I have been back on my hardboots and loving it.  If given the choice to only be allowed one type of boot I would choose hardboots.  But, I don't have to make that choice and neither do you.

I love hardboots for the precise control, speed, and unparalleled turns that I can make with them and a well made, carve specific board.  However, I always ride softboots when I'm in Steamboat Springs.  I spend far more time in the trees and powder than on the trail.  I want to have the flexibility in the ankle that the softboots afford.  I still can get out on the groomers and rip it up with some aggressive carves and I can sometimes miss my hardboots, but the versatility I get from that setup on that type of snow is worth loss of precision.

My softboot board used to be a Nitro Pantera Wide.  Now I have a Flux and this year I will try a Nomad out west.  I recommend you try a Donek Freecarve and a softer hardboot like the 325 or the Free69 if you can still find a pair in your size.  Bomber Sidewinder binding is a must.  Use that setup at home and then ride softies on your trip out west.  Maybe you can bring both. 

This is me in Steamboat in my softies.

[olshitsky]

Guys, thanks for the input.  You've given me a sanity check that leads me to believe, while not common, hardbooting all over the mountain is possible. 

 

Workshop, I've given up entirely on midwest riding.  the runs are too short and the lift lines too long, and the travel distance from Chicago to any hill worth it is just as long as flying out west.

Charlie & Neil, if i'm going to use a hardboot setup for all mountain riding, any thoughts on board shape?  I hear numbers for sidecut radius and they may as well be Greek to me.  I get the concept, I think (shorter radius allows for tighter turns at low speed while larger radius allows for better control at higher speeds, but at the expense of low-speed control).  Any thoughts, or is it really just personal preference?  Also, I've read a little about the "kick" or "snap" of a board coming out of a turn.  My old board had a bit of that, my Donek doesn't.  I'm not sure how much I want that and what contributes to it? 

Apologies if my verbiage is unclear, until recently I've never thought so analytical about riding and lack the necessary vocabulary to articulate.

Edited September 1, 2016 by olshitsky

[Neil Gendzwill]

These days with metal boards you typically go a little bigger with the radius than the older construction as it is easier to bend the board the way you like. Also many boards have variable radius making things more confusing. My Nirvana has a 12/14 m sidecut and works well in most situations. I wanted something that would perform well in ugly bumps and other tight situations, so my AM has what Bruce calls the XT (extra-tight) sidecut, which is a triple radius thing that averages out somewhere in the mid 10s IIRC. At any rate as you'd expect it turns quicker but is a little squirrely at speed. 

If I were to have one board I might go for something in between the two.

As far as "snap" goes, that's a personal preference. Most metal boards feel fairly damp.

 

[Jack M]

Believe it or not, it is actually easier to skid/steer/slash/not-carve a longer radius sidecut.  The more hourglass the shape, the more the board has a mind of its own, and the more effort you have to make to control it.  This is why mogul skis are basically old school straight shapes.  I just say this in case you were thinking of ordering a tighter custom sidecut on a new board, or getting a board that is a bit too short in length in favor of a short sidecut radius.  The Donek Axxess sidecut is already pretty tight by carving standards, but long compared to similar length freeride boards, so I'd take the stock dimensions.

And yes, the Bomber TD3 Sidewinder would be the ultimate binding, but if that's too much the regular TD3 with soft e-ring will be fine.  Either way, go with step-ins.  Sooooo convenient.  All-terrain hardbooting is very possible and enjoyable.  Only last year did I end my 15 year run of not even owning softboots.

[TVR]

TD3's are so nice. They adjust easily... just a very nice design....

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

Believe it or not, it is actually easier to skid/steer/slash/not-carve a longer radius sidecut. 

I think my AM's bump-ability is more due to it's relatively short length and big taper.  It's 13 cm shorter than my Nirvana, and the effective edge difference is even bigger because of the nose.  16 mm taper vs 8, with a softer tail.  It just releases easier and doesn't hang up as much.  The tighter sidecut more plays into it being more turny on the groom: it still carves really well.  Of course all that contributes to the squirreliness at mach schnell, but if I want to go fast I just bust out the Nirvana.

I didn't come up with all this myself, I just told Bruce what I wanted the board to do and he built it. I would trust Bruce or Sean to get it right and not second-guess them on design.

[Jack M]

Sure, a shorter length board is going to be easier to throw around.  I meant all else being equal, a longer radius is easier to maneuver.

[BlueB]

Hard boots to do it all, here, including freestyle. I have a myriad of boards and change them for various conditions/applications. However, my all-round board is always in the car and I'm happy to ride it in almost all conditions. As mentioned before, it's not for high speed or very hard and steep stuff, or waist deep fluff, but pretty damn good for all the rest. 

First of all, let's discuss the width. I feel that traditional 21.5 waisted all mountain carvers are too narrow for true versatility. I think that front angle around 45° with quite a bit of splay on the rear foot gives the most freedom to adapt to various situstions/terrain. I'd pick a board that allows those kind of angles, with a small edge overhang on the rear boot. Count on more then 22.5 if you had anything bigger then M27 boots. 

Next, the length. I'd go just about the same, or a tad longer, then your soft bood board (that is, if you already rode a decent size free ride board, not one of the midget frestylers). Shorter tail of alpine board would give you a bit more edge and that's all you need. 

Flex, not much stiffer then stiff free ride soft boot boards. Custom builders have their ways of improving the torsional properties and that's what counts for edge hold. You'll appreciate softer (alpine) flex in any kind of tighter situation. 

Taper should be noticeable, it improves the pow ride and edge release. Only if you were planing to do quite a bit of switch riding, you'd go less on the taper. 

I'd go tight with the radius, sub 10m, or one of the modern variable sidecuts if somewhat curious about new tech. Tighter cut gives you a bigger nose shovel (float) for the same waist width and more width under the foot. It allows the board to bite aggressively when needed (without inclinating it crazy) AND to do an advanced sliding or slarving turn, where nose bites into a carve, while allowing the tail to slide and then engage and finish turn as a carve. 

A bit of nose decamber is nice, both for float and forgiveness/smoothness of ride. 

Consider going non metal construction if West only was the option. Board will be livelier, lighter and less risk for failure. 

Last but not least, also try throwing some flexible plate bindings on your current board, you might be pleasantly surprised :) 

As for the bindings, the Bombers are total overkill for free riding, unless you are a heavy weight power rider. All you need are F2 Carve RS / Proflex, lightweight bindings. Or something like Burton/Ibex, F2 Race the most... I personally don't like or trust the step-in. They might be handy if you had back problems, though. They stiffen the lateral flex too, which is not necessarily a good thing with lower alpine angles. 

Boots, just find the ones that fit your foot shape well and take it from there. Medium flex should be fine for what you want to do. Keep in mind, too stiff can be modified to softer, while its very hard other way round. 

My 0.02 CAD... ;)

Edited September 2, 2016 by BlueB

[b0ardski]

I've been using plastic shells (not always stiff) and plates (I hate the fuss of laces & straps) for all mountain riding on ""regular"" snowboards for 25 yrs. Can't add much but anecdote to what blue b posted, but

Here's a couple other threads you'll find interesting

http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/43196-narrower-powder-board/#comment-439109

http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/43244-poll-hardboot-terrain-preference/#comment-439603

http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/39762-dynafit-tlt5-for-carving-and-powder/#comment-407543

http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/43265-advantages-of-hardboot-snowboarding/#comment-439943

http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/41149-sw-setup-on-powder-board/#comment-418813

Edited September 2, 2016 by b0ardski

[philw]

It all depends what you mean. I ride all mountain in hard boots. Different people have different preferences. Is it possible - absolutely. Will you like it - don't know.

Hard boots would be useless for ballet ("freestyle") I think. 

In powder I think you need a powder board. I've never ridden a "hard boot powder board"; I just ride standard powder boards with better boots than almost everybody.

If you're American and you'll want a huge board, but that doesn't really work all mountain. American connection technology tends to take the same approach: too stiff, too heavy, too big. Bigger isn't always better.

[BlueB]

1 hour ago, philw said:

Hard boots would be useless for ballet ("freestyle") I think. 

Not necessarily ;) It is a bit more work, though. 

 

Sorry about low res snowy pic... 

[michael.a]

Hey man, welcome to the sport!

You wrote that you only get to ride in 2-3 trips per year and that's what's got me all hot and bothered. While the advice being posted here is very valuable and a goldmine in itself, I think it's overfocusing on the equipment side and not on one really really important issue: learning how to ride in a HB setup. You might get the tools nailed down to a T but without the technique you're going to be falling over every... single... turn.

And forget about hitting the trees or powder deep steeps as a beginner. You might kill yourself without knowing how to control the bloody board. I think that's what i want to reiterate, when starting in hardboots you become a beginner again, and that's a tough nut to swallow especially if you've been riding for a decade or more. I'd save the pennies and get used equipment and invest in getting more time on the snow with the best instruction money can buy. After two-three years then i'd be looking for the most versatile all-mountain setup and more ambitious terrain.

 

[workshop7]

Based on the advice from Michael.a just above, I recommend you check out the for sale section quickly.  There is an old Burton board that you could grab for free and learn on that for a season.

[BlueB]

9 hours ago, michael.a said:

...when starting in hardboots you become a beginner again, and that's a tough nut to swallow especially if you've been riding for a decade or more.

Maybe, or maybe not... He's already fiddled with higher angles on his softies and didn't complain that he had any problems. Putting soft plates, at low angles, on his current freeride board might feel familiar enough, with benefit of more responsive interface. On the other hand, if he jumped on a narrow stiff carver with stiff boots and bindings, at high angles, he might feel lost and probably won't be able to ride the way he described even after years of training. 

I'd save the pennies and get used equipment and invest in getting more time on the snow with the best instruction money can buy.

 

I totaly agree with this sentiment ^ Normaly there's tons of good used gear floating around. However, if money is not an object, why not treat himself with a best gear for the task and still take your advice about snow time and training? 

[olshitsky]

Thanks for the all the input.  The value of a topic-specifc forums might be just the thing I need to restore my faith in the internet.

b0ardski

thanks for the links, will definitely read through those.

philw

I'm going to keep my current Donek which is a soft boot setup, though based on historical analysis, any trip I book out west will result in the absence of any fresh snow fallen for at least 3 weeks preceding my arrival. 

michael.a & workshop7

It may be stupid, but I've held off on buying a hardboot setup for quite some time and some new gear is in my (40th birthday treat to myself) budget.  Unfortunately my time on the mountain is not so much a function of cost but rather free time.  I will make a take a day or two at the midwest hills just go get the feel. 

BlueB

I'd by lying if I said that I'm not concerned about the point you brought up in your post.  I did rent a carving board last season and I liked it and got some great carves, but just felt a little limited with the angles soo forward, the narrow board, and the stiffness.  Which is why I"m looking for what would be an all-mountain board.  Sean also said something interesting in our most recent correspondence:  we used to suggest people "ease" into learning to ride with hardboots but have since found that people that just go all in end up learning a lot faster.  My personality goes well that approach.

 

A couple of questions:

1.  "high vs. low angles"  this may sound dumb, but which is forward and which is perpendicular to the board (90 degrees, to me, is "high" but in context that seems to be low)

2. BlueB said the Bombers were overkill for bindings.  In what regard?  Cost? 

Anyway, thanks for all the input.  Right now I think I'm going to get the Donek Axxess, the Deeluxe 225, and possibly the Bomber TD3's, unless I can find a compelling reason not to.

Thanks again for the help.

 

 

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

0 degrees is straight across. 70 would be very steep for hard boots, 40 shallow. 15 would be typical for soft boots. 

Some feel that Bombers are over-engineered for all-mountain riding.  The regular TD3 is pretty stiff, which is why I suggested the sidewinder. I feel you need lateral movement for all mountain riding. The 225s might give you enough though, they are pretty soft. I would not recommend both a stiff boot and stiff binding for what you want to do. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill
Give not gice

[BlueB]

TD are an overkill for free riding, first and foremost, for being too stiff. They are also unnecessarily heavy and complicated with lots of parts. They cost way more and you end up with something that inhibits the way you want to ride, rather then help you. 

Donek Axxess is a great carver for less then ideal conditions but won't be an ideal board for serious hard boot free ride. 

225s will work if you have somewhat narrow fore/mid foot with wide strong heel. 

[Jack M]

15 hours ago, BlueB said:

TD are an overkill for free riding, first and foremost, for being too stiff. They are also unnecessarily heavy and complicated with lots of parts. They cost way more and you end up with something that inhibits the way you want to ride, rather then help you. 

 

Completely disagree.  TD3s with soft (yellow) e-rings are perfectly fine for hardboot freeriding.  The Sidewinder option gets you even more flex, if you even want it.  The weight difference between the TD3s and any other binding worth considering is insignificant.  The difference is that the flex of Bombers is engineered, whereas flex in other bindings comes from stressing solid plastic and metal parts.  There is a reason racers who don't ride Bombers bring a bag of spare parts on tour.

Boot choice is a much bigger factor for freeriding.  If you want more freedom of motion and range of motion, the place to get it is in your ankle, not in the binding.

[BlueB]

Jack, most of people who extensively free ride on hard boots (and not associated with Bomber) are not on Bombers... I rode various TDs for many years, tried all models. While I find them to be fantastic carving bindings, they are not required or optimal for free ride. The closest I tried is Scooby's setup of yellow TD3 elastomer + TD2 suspension kit under it. However, it becomes so complicated, high stack, heavy and expensive that it's pointless to go that route. On the other hand, I do not think that you really tried the bindings I recommend. 

As for the boots, I agree on the forward motion/flex. The sideways flex should come mostly from the bindings. When your ankle starts moving in 2 or 3 planes under high load, it's kind of bad news. It hurts. 

[Jack M]

I went about 15 years riding nothing but hardboots, and that included all kinds of freeriding.  Bombers are perfectly fine.  No they're not required, and perhaps not optimal for freeriding, but if freeriding is such a priority, hardboots with any binding aren't optimal. Scooby's Frankenstein setup is not really relevant.  More importantly, Bombers are fine for HB freeriding and they are there for him when he wants to lay some serious carves down.  They offer the best combination of suspension and adjustability (cant and lift), and they accomplish all that with relative simplicity.

"When your ankle starts moving in 2 or 3 planes under high load, it's kind of bad news. It hurts." Somehow this isn't a problem for millions of softbooters.

[olshitsky]

9 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

 

Boot choice is a much bigger factor for freeriding.  If you want more freedom of motion and range of motion, the place to get it is in your ankle, not in the binding.

anything you'd recommend?

[teach]

Boots are really important! With a good fit, you may avoid the "beginner all over again" business completely.

There are maybe four shapes to choose from. Deeluxe 700/Raichle AF, other Deeluxe/Raichle SB, Head, and UPZ. There is a lot of information about how these fit on this forum.

As for flex, everyone has different things to say. I'll just say that at around 200 lbs, I find the UPZ RC10s to simply vanish for me. You can soften them up with softer tongues and springs, but I can't see that as necessary. Or go with the ATBs... supposedly really soft. I also like the SIdewinders for freeride, though my freeride just means crappy conditions mostly. Sidewinders are really not complicated, and allow adjustments that require DIY (and PYOM*) with plasticy bindings like SnowPro or F2. But I did find SnowPros useful when getting dialed in. Again, that's at 200 lbs. I gather 150 lbs is a different story.

The Axxess is a really nice board. I won't weigh in on SCR, but it carves beautifully and handles all sorts of crappy conditions confidently. You may want to determine what width you want. I thought going wider would be an improvement, but found that the ride is more punishing (I have bad knees). I no longer ride anything wider than 20 cm (at M28 boots), but that's just me. My point is only that the board's width can make a big difference, and what's right for you may be a surprise.

 

*PYOM = "provide your own materials", like delrin or HDPE for lift/cant wedges, stainless machine screws with wide heads and in custom lengths, etc...