Stivoting

[MikeC]

Curious as to others opinions on the amount of stivoting seen in todays racing.  I.e. the sliding of the board on gate approach before locking onto the edge.

 

It's done is skiing a lot, if there is an alpine specific term I have not heard it.

[digger jr]

Slarving

[HillB]

Slide and set

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[Beckmann AG]

 if there is an alpine specific term I have not heard it.

 

Barnesturming , in reference to Barnes Wallis, the inventor of the skip bomb used against the dams of the Ruhr Valley in WWII.

 

Despite being referred to/appearing to be a 'steered pivot', when it's done right, it's neither.

 

 

 

Slide and set

 

If you want to go fast, as opposed to just looking like you're going fast, there's a little more involved.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[lordmetroland]

Sharting?

[Beckmann AG]

Sharting

 

That's when you evenly divide the final box of PopTarts in the lodge prior to the event.

Or when you forget to close the door on the team van, the battery goes flat from the interior light being on all day, and you have to give it a shove down the access road to get it started.

[BlueB]

I like the term slarving... I teach it to the students and other instructors. 

It somehow describes that you are not just throwing the board in a wild sideways slide, but actually steering it through it. Ideally, the nose would track/carve the turn, with tail doing a wider arc. Also known as "Advanced Sliding Turn"...

 

Now, I'm not quite sure this is the type of turn the OP wanted... In PGS/PSL races we often see the competitors literally jump-turning the top of the turn, where board leaves the ground and changes the direction some 10-30 degrees, before setting in and carving the rest of the turn. It is often seen in the steeper sections of the pitch.

[lowrider]

 It looks more like controlled chaos. When your doing 110 km and the next gate is coming fast you either make the skis bite or your done. What  appears to be sliding I believe is in fact the early engagement of the edges without the traction require to make it appear effective. Looks like the edges are set before the body is in a position to benefit from it. @ 4:18 when his right ski looses traction your can really appreciate the speed and momentum at play no sliding from the left ski firmly tracking the desired path . No slarving when body position is correct and edges are set. Slarving is sort of between "oh shit" and " I've got this"

[SunSurfer]

Ted Ligety is said to be faster because he stivots less than his competitors.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/sochi-olympics/giant-slalom.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=SP_GSX_20140212&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=0

 

While Thedo Remmelink is explicitly teaching the slide and engage turn in this video originally linked on Bomber in 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzNZqvL1RLg

[lowrider]

Snowboard  one edge. Skis two edges. Kind of difficult to translate technique. Probably best a boarder can hope for is to minimize slarving. Ted sure is smooth in the video.

[lordmetroland]

When your doing 110 km and the next gate is coming fast you either make the skis bite or your done.

 

Well, under those conditions, "sharting" about perfectly sums things up for me.

[Corey]

Looking at this from the car racing side, there are turns where you just can't make it at your current speed.  So, you use the brake to slow to a speed where you can just barely make it and still be on the racing line for the next turn.  Do this early so you can have your peak speed at corner exit so you're faster to the next turn/gate.  Slowing down sucks, but lining up the 2nd and 3rd gates after that pays huge dividends in something like autocross where there aren't long straights between corners.  

 

I assumed that the snowboard/ski racers were doing the same thing with the initial skid.  It's probably not a direct crossover as gravity and engines work rather differently...  

[MikeC]

Looking at this from the car racing side, there are turns where you just can't make it at your current speed.  So, you use the brake to slow to a speed where you can just barely make it and still be on the racing line for the next turn.  Do this early so you can have your peak speed at corner exit so you're faster to the next turn/gate.  Slowing down sucks, but lining up the 2nd and 3rd gates after that pays huge dividends in something like autocross where there aren't long straights between corners.  

This is what I was getting at.  Is there a reason courses are being set that allow these speeds to be reached, where shedding speed is required? Vs. setting a course that has more cross-hill movement.

[Corey]

If you never had to slow down to make the next corner, that would remove some of the excitement/rush of doing and watching!  

 

Disclaimer: I'm a non-racer and frankly find snowboard racing pretty boring on TV.  I can watch ski racing for hours with the varied courses/speeds/obstacles.  

[MikeC]

If you never had to slow down to make the next corner, that would remove some of the excitement/rush of doing and watching!  

 

Disclaimer: I'm a non-racer and frankly find snowboard racing pretty boring on TV.  I can watch ski racing for hours with the varied courses/speeds/obstacles.  

Depends on where you get your excitement...

Edited January 20, 2016 by MikeC

[Beckmann AG]

Is there a reason courses are being set that allow these speeds to be reached, where shedding speed is required?

 

In GS, It's not so much a matter of needing to shed speed, it's that the rules changed to require larger sidecuts, while the course setting parameters remain the same. Athletes then innovate to 'make the line' without undue loss of energy.

 

In snowboarding, its a matter of technique lagging technology.

 

 

It's probably not a direct crossover as gravity and engines work rather differently...  

 

Not direct, but a gliding ski is equivalent to a running engine, with sidecut to HP, and rebound to torque.

 

 

(Embed is blocked, use link below)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2mghi1_marc-marquez-pole-position-record-lap-motogp-2015-round-02-q2-austin-720p-hd_auto

 

Theoretical 'stivot' around :47. 'Float' the chassis sideways with wheels rolling, counter steer/establish lean angle, find the line, then roll the throttle on.  More or less comparable to what Hirscher is up to.

The bottom line on snow is not excavating any more of the working surface than necessary, which requires a very light touch on re-entry, such that the skis glide, rather than 'bounce' into their respective arcs.    

 

 

Snowboard  one edge. Skis two edges. Kind of difficult to translate technique. Probably best a boarder can hope for is to minimize slarving.

 

The respective platforms may look different, but their essential function is the same.

You'll notice that Ligety, Shiffrin, Hirscher, et al, are all very effective with their inside ski. A snowboard is an 'inside', rather than an 'outside', ski. Ergo, assuming comparable pressure control, the rider should be able to replicate, to greater or lesser extent, the technique employed by the top level skiers, at least in GS.

The future of snowboard technique can be found in WC GS. The future of WC GS can be found in motorcycle road racing, and WRC Rallye. The difficulty for snowboard racers is making the leap from the established paradigm (resembling ski technique of the late 80's) into the present.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[MikeC]

In GS, It's not so much a matter of needing to shed speed, it's that the rules changed to require larger sidecuts, while the course setting parameters remain the same. Athletes then innovate to 'make the line' without undue loss of energy.

 

In snowboarding, its a matter of technique lagging technology.

 

 

 

Not direct, but a gliding ski is equivalent to a running engine, with sidecut to HP, and rebound to torque.

 

 

(Embed is blocked, use link below)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2mghi1_marc-marquez-pole-position-record-lap-motogp-2015-round-02-q2-austin-720p-hd_auto

 

Theoretical 'stivot' around :47. 'Float' the chassis sideways with wheels rolling, counter steer/establish lean angle, find the line, then roll the throttle on.  More or less comparable to what Hirscher is up to.

The bottom line on snow is not excavating any more of the working surface than necessary, which requires a very light touch on re-entry, such that the skis glide, rather than 'bounce' into their respective arcs.    

 

 

 

The respective platforms may look different, but their essential function is the same.

You'll notice that Ligety, Shiffrin, Hirscher, et al, are all very effective with their inside ski. A snowboard is an 'inside', rather than an 'outside', ski. Ergo, assuming comparable pressure control, the rider should be able to replicate, to greater or lesser extent, the technique employed by the top level skiers, at least in GS.

The future of snowboard technique can be found in WC GS. The future of WC GS can be found in motorcycle road racing, and WRC Rallye. The difficulty for snowboard racers is making the leap from the established paradigm (resembling ski technique of the late 80's) into the present.

I'm talking snowboard.  I'm aware of the GS regs for skiing.  These don't exist for snowboards AFAIK.

[lowrider]

 Cars 4 wheels, Skis two edges. Motorcycles two wheels ,Snowboards one edge. When I was younger I couldn't go fast enough on skis and going fast in a car wasn't considered to be nearly as risky as going fast on two wheels. I would never consider going as fast on one edge (snowboard) as I would on skis. My thinking is no amount of slarving is a substitute for the security of a plan " B ". Motorcycles and Snowboards usually don't have a plan " B ". While skiers and borders both run the risk of failure (crash). I belive that a snowboarder has to commit to their edge ( carve ) more than a skier does. A comparative race with corresponding video would make for an interesting study. It might be interesting enough for Corey to be entertained. Who carves or slarves more skier or snowboarder. Perhaps my fear of crashing is preventing me from challenging myself more often. How does one practice crashing on east coast boiler plate ? Even with body armour it hurts. " A snowboard is an inside rather than an outside edge. Unlike skis " It is also the ONLY edge ".

[Beckmann AG]

I'm talking snowboard.

 

Yes, that was clear.

Thus:

 

In snowboarding, its a matter of technique lagging technology.

 

Riders can't get the board around in time on a gliding edge, so they up-unweight and throw it sideways (to greater or lesser extent). That's less a matter of course set and more a matter of technique and equipment selection. 

 

 

 

Cars 4 wheels, Skis two edges. Motorcycles two wheels ,Snowboards one edge. When I was younger I couldn't go fast enough on skis and going fast in a car wasn't considered to be nearly as risky as going fast on two wheels. I would never consider going as fast on one edge (snowboard) as I would on skis. My thinking is no amount of slarving is a substitute for the security of a plan " B ". Motorcycles and Snowboards usually don't have a plan " B ". While skiers and borders both run the risk of failure (crash). I belive that a snowboarder has to commit to their edge ( carve ) more than a skier does. A comparative race with corresponding video would make for an interesting study. It might be interesting enough for Corey to be entertained. Who carves or slarves more skier or snowboarder. Perhaps my fear of crashing is preventing me from challenging myself more often. How does one practice crashing on east coast boiler plate ? Even with body armour it hurts. " A snowboard is an inside rather than an outside edge. Unlike skis " It is also the ONLY edge ".

 

Respectfully submitted, I'd suggest you spend some time thinking next to the box. Despite appearances,(two skis v one board) when you get to the upper levels of operation, there is no plan "B", at least not in terms of platform. 

Four wheels on snow:

Two wheels in rain:

 

Risk is relative.

When an athlete gets their technique/gears sorted, on the bike, skis, or board, 'commitment' is a  matter of timing/tactics. If anything, skiers like Hirscher and Ligety are more committed than your average snowboard competitor. This is readily apparent when you consider where in a course their respective tools productively engage the working surface. 

 

As regards crashing on east coast ice, that's largely a matter of what you're practicing, and how you're practicing it.  Ice is extremely consistent. If you can't match your technique to a consistent surface, then you need to gradually 'peel the onion' until you find the errant input.

Garbage in, garbage out, and all that.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[lowrider]

 After watching those two videos I'm trying not to even think now. Have you got a bike on snow for comparison sake ? Compared to vehicles I guess my snowboard is more like chains on ice. Every time I heard the revs drop I was expecting the car to hit the guard rails. Unfortunately my riding is always a combination of ice and snow ice and snow. never just snow or ice which  I think I could  adapt  to more readily.

[Beckmann AG]

[lowrider]

 I concede. Can't stay up any later watching these or I'll have nightmares next time I drive on ice.

[lordmetroland]

I enjoyed this little digression immensely, especially for something that I completely didn't understand. Getting back to the matter at hand...

 

Drarving? Driftarving? Sclifting? Lobstermato?

[Rob Stevens]

Skivot.