Who rides the "Pureboarding" style

[hachis]

Thanks, so that must be a EC PRO. Didn't found any information about how they should be ridden. Did they need that special and new to me kind of carving-style like on picture?

 

 

I DO NOT KNOW! ;)

 

I personally never had a deck of that brand.

 

I'm stuck with my old Burton(s) ... My P.J. and my ALP.

 

I do not consider myself as a great rider but I have lots of pleasure when carving. I do not know what's pureboarding style either ... I'm affraid I do not know how to define my own style :)))

 

I've read lots of thing about E.C. on the SWOARD WBsite, this kind of "carving" seems (TO ME!!!) very "elitist" ... -please, be kind, english is not my native language- ... So, "elitist", I said, because your boots need to be that way ... your stance and angulation need to be that other way, ..., your board needs to be wide enough but not too, yous boots need to be as felxible as possible (to meet the "surf" -bare feet-), etc.

 

You'll surely find some clues reading this.

 

;)

Edited January 17, 2015 by hachis

[Bobby Buggs]

I started this thread to discuss the style and technique of something I am interested in being better at. I cant believe people are tossing turds in here about the quality of the board construction, acting like they are manufacturing experts.  I welcome discussion about the technique and ways to improve at it but this shit throwing?.... save it.

[softbootsurfer]

[RCrobar]

Hello 

 

I have a question about bindings and how it relates to the PB stance set up and hip movement.

 

 

Corey Dyck Writes: 

I also don't understand how he even keeps his back foot in his binding with all the free-play he has in the bails. I think he just tells it to stay there in 4 languages or something. 

 

Aracan Writes:

4. really low binding angles for the rear binding - below 40°, if your feet are small enough. 

 

The front is set 12-20° steeper. 

 

The low rear angle, together with the PB style, creates a very strong frontside when you drive your rear knee towards the snow.

 

Aracan Writes:  

Pureboarding is about a technique which is adaptable for anything you might encounter, from moguls to pow to laydowns.

 

 

 

With a very low rear binding angle and a pretty big degree of splay between the front and back binding stance angles, it would be very difficult to turn your hips on a backside/heelside turn if the rear binding was stiff and tight.

 

I am guessing that this huge amount of free play, in the REAR binding is needed to make the rotational technique possible when the ultimate goal is all mountain versatility.

 

The binding question:

 

Have the PB guys experimented with different binding designs? (I think I read the PB guys use Burton/Ibex plates)

 

Maybe a super modified TD Sidewinder?  Something that would allow the movement when done up tightly for safety.

 

Thanks

Rob

[Bobby Buggs]

I think they use the ibex cause the boot can twist/shift in the binding, function properly and not release. It does seem a bit problematic such a low angle back foot and trying to get the hip around but as inflexible as I am I as able to figure it out.

[lafcadio]

With a very low rear binding angle and a pretty big degree of splay between the front and back binding stance angles, it would be very difficult to turn your hips on a backside/heelside turn if the rear binding was stiff and tight.

 

I am guessing that this huge amount of free play, in the REAR binding is needed to make the rotational technique possible when the ultimate goal is all mountain versatility.

 

Joerg says he prefers the low rear binding angle (35-40 degrees) because it's a more stable stance and similar to a surf stance (I've never surfed, so I don't know.)   The more interesting question is why the big splay and why the high angle on the front foot.  With a wide board and small feet, Joerg could easily get 45-50 degrees with no boot overhang on the front foot.  But he prefers even higher than that -- closer to 55 I think.  I ride 55/36 on my PB.   What I've observed is that having the front foot turned up to a higher angle makes it far easier to get the rotation needed on heel side turns.

 

So, yes, Rob, I agree that the splay helps with rotation on backside.  However, there's also the element of "stance stability", which helps when riding low and compressed.  

 

 

Have the PB guys experimented with different binding designs? (I think I read the PB guys use Burton/Ibex plates)

 

Maybe a super modified TD Sidewinder?  Something that would allow the movement when done up tightly for safety.

 

Yes, the bindings (Speed from Carve Company) are rebranded Ibex (old Burton race plates). 

 

It's true that PBers like flexible bindings, but I don't think Joerg's ridiculously loose rear binding (it makes me cringe when I see him flick it closed with one finger) is really necessary.  I've seen plenty of riders do PB very well without risking slipping out of their bindings... even a few riding Intec.  

 

I'm sure the additional flexibility the TD Sidewinder offers would help. 

 

The PB guys also like soft flexing boots, especially on the rear foot which is typically ridden with the lean adjuster unlocked. 

[hachis]

What stance would you recommand?

 

I read that  "rider's size/3.55" would the best ...

 

what do you think about that?

 

Would you recommand something else?

[Mr.E]

I don't ride in a "Pureboarding" style, but I have found similar splay works well for me for freeride type decks. I don't know the specs on the PB boards, but my 169 incline is 22cm wide (my old one was 24cm wide) with an average 12m sidecut. I ride the same 55 front foot I ride on my alpine decks, and have turned the rear down a bit to about 45 (from my normal 50). I find this gives a good balance of edge pressure (on a board that is torsionally stiff anyway) and still allows me to get my hips and body to work and align in a way I am used to with my other decks. I've done this for about 15 years with good results (for me).

[pokkis]

Rider size is not so much effect than you leg length, and personal preference.

On carving there are not strict rules set by FIS how you can setup your board

 

Me length 180 cm, stance 54cm flat earlier, now with small lift on rear.

[dingbat]

I like to center on the front inserts and then set the rear to wherever is comfortable and allows the most freedom to rotate the hip.

 

I believe Remo has the license or rights to the bindings manufactured under the Carve Company brand now. My take away from the conversation I had with him about them is they have made significant changes in the metallurgy of the bales and base plates compared to what Ibex and Burton were doing. Being a Pure Boarding instructor, I imagine he's intimately familiar with the stresses they would need to hold up to for the style.  

[snowboardfast]

I have been using the following bindings-Burton, which is same as Ibex,Phiokia with 5 mm bails you can also get 6mm bails for phiokia .i also ride Nidecker free carve which has 5 mm bails.They all ride about the same and work well. the advantage of the phiokia and the nidecker is they come with shims for cant where the Burton did not and people have been having trouble with the Burton cant disc. i have been riding with cant only in the rear foot  about 3 degrees but I am going to try flat on both feet again.the disadvantage of the Nidecker is that they are no longer being made but Phiokia and Ibex are still in production. I also have the bomber side winder but they are 2.5 pounds heavier and too stiff with the blue pads. I might try them with yelow pads in the toe and blue in the heel on each binding to see if that will work? Fin sugested I try that because I am too heavy for all yellow. i think the Bomber is going to be too stiff anyway? Last time I tried them on my metal raceboard they felt really stiff like stepins. If I continue to ride my 185 metal race board I have been using phiokia with 6 mm bails as I want the extra strenght for safety reasons. I am not riding a pureboarding stance on the raceboard.The Phiokia binding with 6mm bails rides with more flex than the sidewinder. I used to ride td3 stepins and felt they were too stiff for all mountain riding and I was not riding a puerboarding stance with them. Before that I rode td1 stepins which are crazy stiff. I think the f2 and snowpro binding would work for Pureboarding as well? Also the Kessler binding which is similar to f2. Maybe the Virus binding would work as well but they are very expensive. 

[michael.a]

     to bobby

 

I just want to say that I've met Joerg as well as Patrice and Jacques from Swoard and there is nothing elitist or cultish about them, they are incredibly friendly, open and sincere and you their passion for snowboarding is unbelivable. I really don't know why people have such a huge problem that they developed a concept that combines a specific riding style with their own type of snowboards, technique, and setup as well as having their own opinions on the matter. 

 

Edit part II, modified some of the off-topic stuff on Europeans but kept the rest as is :)

 

Back on topic. I think stance is so highly personal that it's difficult to go by even go what others use. For example, I tried Joerg's board and if I remember correctly he has a narrow stance with a flat front foot and massive outward cant on the rear with toe lift?, splay of something like 20 degrees, and rides in two different boots due to their flex, I think the front was a Raichle 325 and the rear a Deeluxe Free 69. I'm sure I got some of the details wrong, please correct me. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by michael.a

[Bobby Buggs]

michael.a, Nothing to be sorry about. You are right on with your observations. I am disappointed that I started a thread looking for insight on the PB technique and I get haters and engineers commenting, with little to no discussion on the technique or how to be better at it.

[KingCrimson]

Alpine snowboarding, let alone specific styles like PB and EC are young. Any discussion is going to be full of pseudoscience, conjecture, and hate. 

 

I think your question was phrased towards an intangible riding philosophy, vs a specific technique question, and that's where the BS brews. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by KingCrimson

[snowboardfast]

I guess the best way to get better at the Pureboarding technique will be for me to go to SES and go to the clinic and then continue to work at it afterwords. i have started to work on rotating into the turns and also trying to grab the board top edge on heelside as that is one of the drills Joerg has you do for practicing. I still can't grab the edge yet but I will continue to practice this. this thread is moving along well despite the negative comments-more positive than negative. Lets keep it going ! 

[digger jr]

Bobby,

Don't be sorry you started this thread! It is one of the most interesting discussions in a while.

I've been trying different bindings, mainly more flexible ones and it's been a real eye opener.

First off I agree with whoever said Joerg (sp?)( and the whole pure boarding crew are) is impossibly nice. He is a stoke master and you can't have enough positive stoke these days.

It's good I think to try different setups from time to time, because you just don't know until you try them.

Keep an open mind and it will help your progression. I'll be at SES this year and am so glad the Euros will be there at the same time this year.

Party on.

 

 

Ron

Edited January 19, 2015 by digger jr

[Bobby Buggs]

Wow, so asking about a snowboarding style fosters hatred?? Thought this was a community that was here for the love of the turn no matter what "style" it was

[snowboardfast]

You are not fostering hatred. I agree with you lets discuss the various  styles and gear and learn together. it is all good skwal -raceboards soft boot carving whatever.

[Aracan]

Bobby Buggs, an online forum is an online forum, even a rather civilized one like BOL ;-)

I am not sure if I can help you progress with the PB style, as I am still very much a learner myself. I personally find that it pays to practice, practice, practice. I won't say that pre-rotation has become second nature to me, but I am certainly a lot closer than two years ago. 

 

Two more points: First, it used be so that I hurt myself snowboarding in some way or other every season - an overextended thumb here, a bloody nose there - nothing major, but still. This has stopped entirely since I have started practicing the PB style (*knocks on wood*).

Second, there has been some discussion here about which foot to put your weight on during which phase of which turn, especially the toeside. Sticking to the advice I got at the PB camps has served me well so far. I am not telling anyone what to do or how efficiently I am doing things. Just saying that it works for me, because weighing the rear foot on toesides may or may not be efficient, but it is certainly safer than otherwise.

[Corey]

Some people just like to throw mud whenever they can... I'm monitoring to ensure things don't go too far. We have a pretty small world in hardbooting; I hate seeing someone trying to discredit others. We do this because it's fun!

The PB focus is on making a system that works and is fun in all conditions. That's a very noble goal as Joerg is trying very hard to keep hardbooting accessible to everyone, not just the tech-y people. Alpine can seem way too complicated/overwhelming to a newbie. PB is about playing with the snow and terrain. Playing is fun!

I also have the bomber side winder but they are 2.5 pounds heavier and too stiff with the blue pads. I might try them with yelow pads in the toe and blue in the heel on each binding to see if that will work? Fin sugested I try that because I am too heavy for all yellow.

I'm ~210 lbs and ride all yellow pads on one set of Sidewinders. They do take a set / stay compressed after a run, with free play in the binding. I can't feel it at all when riding but can move my knee laterally a couple of inches in the lift line before starting to compress the bushings further. Yellow front, blue heel eliminates that free play but is a bit stiffer overall.

[RCrobar]

Hello

 

Thanks for the response lafcadio, your comments about the front foot angle, splay and hip rotation make a lot of sense.

 

lafcadio writes:

It's true that PBers like flexible bindings, but I don't think Joerg's ridiculously loose rear binding (it makes me cringe when I see him flick it closed with one finger) is really necessary.  I've seen plenty of riders do PB very well without risking slipping out of their bindings... even a few riding Intec

 

michael.a writes:

Joerg rides in two different boots due to their flex, I think the front was a Raichle 325 and the rear a Deeluxe Free 69.

 

 

I guess binding flexibility, like everything, is personal preference combined with a person's body type, individual flexibility, and the actual boot-binding combo being used, etc.  Mr Buggs started the thread, tried the set up and indicated that the set up change test went well.

 

That said, I still find Joerg's boot set up very interesting and telling with regards to binding flexibility.  He has his rear ibex set up as loose as possible and wears two different boots with the rear being a laterally very flexible boot.  

 

I guess the next question is:

 

If the rear iBex binding was/is flexible enough, why would Joerg wear two different boots with the rear boot being more flexible?   

 

I have also read that Jacques Rilliet used his bindings with the rear toe lever so loose it was a bit scary!  Two great riders, two masters of their preferred styles, both liking so much movement in the rear boot! 

 

Maybe the Special Edition Joerg PB Sidewinder is in the works?:)

 

Cheers

Rob

[lafcadio]

All good points and excellent questions.   Funny that Joerg actually dislikes talking technical about equipment and setup.  Oh, the irony!!!  ;-)

[Bobby Buggs]

Cool thing is we all or at least I thought for years that any movement in the binding was indicative of an incorrect set up. These guys come along with there boots slopping around, nail every turn and dont come out.

[Rob Stevens]

If you can handle the splay, it's a good way to "split the difference". The "difference" being the ability to ride more varied terrain, by balancing pure carving ability with freeride stability.

Also said earlier, EC is pretty much optimized to lay turns on groomers. PB wants to do that, and best they can, ride everything else. If the back foot is flattened off to allow that "sticking out" of the knee you liked, Bobby, you're maximizing the stability of a flat back foot, and getting the added directional "cue" as to where to move the knee to powerfully edge.

Truthfully, toeside carves can be done really well, on anything from high angle to duckfoot.

The downside to decreasing rear angles is that if you're flatter in angle, you're "further away" from where your rear toe might want to point, to make an easily carved, hip-dragging, alpine heel turn. For the average person, in order to get their body low to the snow, on heels with style, it helps to have forward angles (the obvious part), which, in counter, makes it trickier to maintain stability (the sorta less obvious part). Not many people have the flexibility of ankle through hip in the rear leg to both carve deeply and low AND ride the whole mountain in a freeride / freestyle sense. 

A loose rear binding lets this happen... Simultaneously, a lower angle on the toes and a higher angle on the heels. A flexier binding could also help. A stiff binding, set loose, will only let you go so far before you're out. The flexy binder should "track" your boots movement better. That said, I wouldn't do it... I'd be too scared, given my weight vs. ability, to blow a foot off the board.

To get where I want to be (See the spirited 'Board Riding" thread), I'll need to be more flexible and fit. Rather than risk a one-foot, or having to go back to the more tricky-to-maintain stability of a rear foot set at anything over 30 degrees, practice and strength look like the only options. If I find that my physiology isn't co-operating, I'll just go under the knife!

As for this being the home of all things "carved turn", and that respect is given for people who rip, regardless of eqipment or stance, I wish that were true, but this is internets.

[Hans]

Cool thing is we all or at least I thought for years that any movement in the binding was indicative of an incorrect set up. These guys come along with there boots slopping around, nail every turn and dont come out.

 

Because Jörg is one of a kind in the scenery, as a human and as a PB carver and teacher. I still need to take some lessons from him (I have said that for many years now, did I? Shame on me.).