Binding angles and overhang for newb

[GarrettDN]

So I have a whopping 1 day on snow. I have 29.5M boots and big feet. I'm 73 inches tall.

I started my day with binding angles of 51/45. That was just too uncomfortable. I switched to 51/39 and all was well. However, I have toe and heel overhand at that setting. Specifically, I can get the board up to a theoretical 76 degrees before I will have drag. The way I see it I have 4 options:

1) Get smaller feet

2) Get a wider board

3) higher binding angles

4) Accept it for now

I didn't feel any drag or anything, but I'm a total rookie. I imagine I'll get laying out a little more within a few sessions.

Is 76 degrees something I'm likely to eclipse soon?

Long term I think I would probably order a custom board, but is like 23Cm too wide for a caving stick?

I think if I up the binding angles I'll need to keep that 10-15 degree difference from front to rear or it is just to uncomfortable for me.

I'm looking for any intermediate/advanced/experts who have had this debate/issue before, I imagine (?) it isn't too uncommon.

[Puddy Tat]

Personal opinion. This is without seeing the board, boots, or bindings you are riding.

Splay (the angle difference between your front and rear foot) is a function of your body geometry. Basically you have to work with what you've got or it won't be comfortable.

If you are comfortable; I'd run the angles you are currently running until you start experiencing boot out. At that point I'd look at increasing your angles.

I've got mondo 28 feet and have carving decks 20 (NSR), 21 (Schtubby) and 24.5 (Incline) centimeters wide. Though the last one is more of an AM board, I can still drag my butt on a heelside without any difficulty. The only thing I've found I give up with wider boards is the speed at which I can switch edges.

Edit: Personally I run about 5 degrees of splay but again it comes down to body geometry. I was helping a buddy set up a deck the other day and he has to have at least 10 degrees of splay or he starts feeling pressure in the side of his foot and his hip.

Cheers,

Dave

Edited December 23, 2013 by Puddy Tat

[lonbordin]

You're not the biggest here and nor am I at 195.5 cm and 109kg. That said I've walked your path and can comment on your post.

First I started with 30M boots and wear 29M with a medium volume liner so I'm betting you can go smaller I could probably drop to 28.5 shells with very low volume liners and several appointments with a qualified boot fitter (note: as I write this I'm wearing a pair of Patagonia's that are size 14 but I usually wear a 13 EE shoe).

How wide is the board you're using?

How wide is your stance and your inseam?

What bindings are you using and are you using toe and heel lift?

How about cant?

As to are you going to exceed 76 degrees... well here's a handy chart (YMMV).

I'm going to make a guess that you've snowboarded or skateboarded before with a lower stance and are trying to transition to hardbooting. If my assumption is correct then this comfort issue your feeling could be a result of a poor setup (see my earlier questions) and/or trying to steer the board as you've previously done which will not work. The rules are different with HardBoots.

A great place to start is reading all that is linked here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/resources/newcarver/new_carver.html

A great place to start with binding setup is here:

http://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding/hardboot-binding-configuration

Welcome to BOL.

Edited December 23, 2013 by lonbordin
words-n-stuff.

[GarrettDN]

Thanks for the feedback thus far!

I'm using a 175M with a 21.5 waiste, a 21 inch stance and I have a 34 inch inseam.

No cant or toe or heel lift. The bindings are Burton race plates.

If I go to 45 degrees on the rear I can get to 85 degrees. I would guess I should feel a little weird on it, but I don't have a baseline of HOW weird it should feel.

[GarrettDN]

Should have said a Swoard 175M....

[digger jr]

Hi Garrett,

Sounds like it went ok for you. Like Dave said overhang is not a problem until you start booting out. I believe your Swoard board is 23cm wide?

Also your front foot is angled fairly low. You may try mid to upper 50*s even if you have sight underhang. My wife runs 58* front 38* rear( underhang on front sight overhang rear) and I've tried to change that rear to a more forward stance with irate results. It's good if you can get a few days in, then make a few tweaks to see if it feels better. There's a lot of set up options out there and it takes a bit to figure out what works for you. I would also try to get some cants for your race plates so you can experiment with that in the near future. Some people can ride flat, some (most?) need some cant or lift. 21'' stance seems a lot for a flat stance so for now you may narrow a bit, it may feel more comfy. No substitute for snow time, so don't get discouraged if your not mastering it as soon as you think you should. I enjoyed the learning curve and glad I did because carving a snowboard isn't as easy as it looks ( for me ).

[BlueB]

So I have a whopping 1 day on snow. I have 29.5M boots and big feet. I'm 73 inches tall.

I started my day with binding angles of 51/45. That was just too uncomfortable. I switched to 51/39 and all was well. However, I have toe and heel overhand at that setting. Specifically, I can get the board up to a theoretical 76 degrees before I will have drag.

Well, you could try to go 57/45, which would be the same 12deg splay that you were comfy with at 51/39... If still a bit tight in front quad, go just a bit narrower.

76 won't boot you out unless doing EC. However, it is safer to have less, for breaking abillity whan falling on steep hard pack.

I'm using a 175M with a 21.5 waiste, a 21 inch stance and I have a 34 inch inseam.

No cant or toe or heel lift. The bindings are Burton race plates.

If I go to 45 degrees on the rear I can get to 85 degrees.

You have plenty wide board (if it is the Swoard 175M, then it should be 23 wide indeed). 85deg overhang will not boot you out at all.

I think, in the big picture, you should try to experiment with toe/heel lifts, angles and stance width, until your stance feels really comfy and you can "carpet carve" for 15-20 minutes without anuthing hurting/cramping. Do not worry about Swoard "flat" dogma for now...

Edited December 24, 2013 by BlueB

[lonbordin]

Wide board is good to start out and for the low angles. I have a 23cm wide Donek that I use for everyday riding, especially the non-groom I get on my little bump.

That said I believe that 45 degrees is a special place especially with how hardboots work. Above 45 and below 45 require different riding strategies. I'm NOT saying one is better than the other but there's a big difference. I'd encourage you to try to move that rear north of 45.

This said,

-Do you stand with your feet splayed (more than a few degrees) outward normally?

-Can you give us more on "uncomfortable" and "weird"?

Uncomfortable sounds like you might have pain or strain...where? how much? doing what?

Weird sounds like your just feeling like a complete newb on the hill when you weren't in softboots or on skis (have you done other snowsports)?

The more detailed information you can reply the better answers you'll see from the BOL board.

PS- Did you do your Norms?!

[lowrider]

Some newer boots seem to have shorter sole length if that's any help. You could also look at Plate system to get you up higher off the board this will help with boot out.

[GarrettDN]

I'll sheepishly admit I did not do the norms, but I will. The hill was REALLY crowded until night, and then it was rutted so I was spending a lot of time just feeling out the board. (I switched to my "normal" board after about 3 Swoard runs in the morning.) In the evening I did do some work similar to the norms, but I didn't dedicate the time to it. I was just having a blast carving that sucker. So fun.

When I stand my feet are outward a little bit. I have some tension in my piriformis that I've never been able to fully work out. When I have my splay too low I get pain in the outer left of my front foot and feel like I am pushing outward significantly with my knees, specifically the rear. This is pretty similar to how it is on my all-mountin soft-boot board. So I *think* going too close on the binding angles is not going to be comfortable for me. But I am new to this genre, so I know I don't know what I don't know.

The "weird" is just that I feel like my weight isn't equally distributed and I am mainly on one leg. The front, specifically. I went to 57/45 and at that angle it feels to my untrained legs like maybe a touch of toe lift on the front might help get me a little more centered. But I'm not sure. I feel like I am really pressuring my front quad with these angles.

If the toe life would indeed be beneficial, how might an enterprising new-carver go about buying a toe lift that is compatible with the Burton bindings? I was looking at the EC stuff so I was under the impression that flat was ideal. I know, I know....something on the internet isn't 100% accurate?!?!?!?!?!! Say it ain't so.

And yes, the waist is 23sm. With a tape measure on the board like 10 times to check various things you'd think I would have checked that.

As for my snowsport history...

I've snowboarded since 1990. I've actually wanted a carving board for a long time, but just moved back tot Wa and stepped up to the plate (pun intended). Finding this website was the ignitor for that fire.

I'm a pretty descent all mountain rider, backcountry and in bounds both. I'm not awesome at all in the park. I can hit the L (not XL) pro-lines, but methods are about as much as I do. I have downhill skied twice, mostly because my wife (skier) wanted to watch me look like a goon on the hill. Haha.

I've also cross-country skied some. My dad is a XC racer, so I started that when I was young. I prefer the gravity method of propulsion, though.

BlueB, I see you are an instructor in Vancouver? If I can get away from here for a day I'll need a lesson for sure.

[Corey]

It took me a while to convince my shoulders and hips to face the same direction as my toes pointed. I had to try to point them at the nose to get there. I had all kinds of weird pains and struggles until I did this. Those ingrained habits are hard to break! I still tend to revert to sideways hips when I bust into an emergency heelside skid. The pain in my rear knee reminds me not to do that.

Go find a quite steeper green or mellow blue to do the Norm exercise. Your feet are learning a new language, learn the basics before trying to have a full conversation.

A toe lift worked wonders for removing tension in my front leg. Each rider is different, experiment to see what makes your body happy.

[teach]

A possible factor is joint alignment -- the pain on the outer side of your front foot and feeling that you're pushing outward with your knees suggests that maybe proper footbeds might help. I find that you can make up for that a little with cant. In my case, and maybe yours, a little outward cant helps a lot. That might put your knees in the alignment they're seeking. It could also be extremely painful... one thing to look at, at least.

[Beckmann AG]

Magnitude of foot splay is usually proportional to the conformation of the foot. Specifically, whether or not the first metatarsal is mobile, and if so, how much.

As above, ^ if you do not have good foot support by way of hard boots specific footbeds/orthotics, start there. You may find with your feet supported, weight will be borne more evenly across both feet independently, which should reduce the tension/discomfort you feel at reduced splay.

The same principle applies to soft boots, and to your XC pursuits as well.

With too much splay, you will be strong rotationally (which you really don't need) at the expense of edge to edge dexterity (which you do need). Parallel to 6 degrees is a reasonable target, but not absolute by any stretch.

If the toe lift would indeed be beneficial, how might an enterprising new-carver go about buying a toe lift that is compatible with the Burton bindings?

I may have a few of these somewhere.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Beckmann AG
Greater trochanter

[BlueB]

BlueB, I see you are an instructor in Vancouver? If I can get away from here for a day I'll need a lesson for sure.

By all means, it would be my pleasure. Let me know when ready. I should be back on slopes by 7th of Jan.

-----

Back to toe/heel lifts for the Race Plates... It is not to hard to make them. You could use PE cutting board from dollar store, to make some. Dismanle the toe/heel blocks. You'll find some thin plastic pieces that go in between the blocks and the base plate. Trace those to the material you wanted to use for the lifts and cut/drill.

If you had no power tools, you could even use the thin 1.5mm PE cutting pad sold by Ikea. It is so thin that you can cut it even by good scissors. You'll need multiple layers, though.

[jacopodotti]

Get a pair of UPZ, I have MP295 and on a 20 cm wide board I have 54 54 with no foot drag.

If you are a beginner I don't think you could reach enough inclination to get a boot drag.

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?41142-Lower-Angles-with-UPZ

[Shred Gruumer]

Im 70.89768845 inches..