Snowboarding's declining popularity

[Jack M]

I wouldn't worry about it.

Actually I don't worry about it too much. Snowboarding is not going back to 0, of course. It is receiving a deserved reality check. And Alpine? Well... right now is the best time to be a hardbooter, ever. The boards, boots, and bindings are the best they have ever been, and they seem to be getting incrementally better. If that wasn't the case, I'd worry. But I'm having the most fun on a carving board I've ever had. Life is good. When Fin, Sean, Bruce, Chris retire, it will probably be time for me to hang it up too. If nobody fills their shoes, it probably won't affect me. It would be a sad thing, but that's about it.

[kinpa]

I think we just all have to accept diversity. No one wants to be told that have to ride a certain way. Isn't that why we started snowboarding instead of skiing like everyone else in the first place way back when? Doing something different... out of the norm... When I get time later tonight, I want to go back and read the NY Times article again. The thing that I see as an instructor, is that most of the public isn't even aware there are any other options than the baggy clothes, park riding, duck stance "kids" that are out there. If I came to a ski area for the first time as an adult, I don't know that that particular style would appeal to me either. I do ski too. And I'm happy on my Fisher slalom skis. That's my style. For one I can't afford new twin tip rocker skis, so I make do with what I have. If I tried it, I might just like it. Who knows! The new freestyle skiing doesn't appeal to me either, but I'm not going to say it's wrong. I just feel that the majority of us on this forum just would like the general public know that there are options if the mainstream "style" isn't so appealing to you. The kids always want to do something different than what their parents do. Just happens that way. Are we, as the adults, the ones to say if it's right or wrong? I've seen many competent soft boot riders. I don't have a problem with the way they ride. I DO have a problem if they insist on telling me why I should be riding like them. AASI says we need to cater to our students and they come to us with soft boot setups, right? Sure they do only because if they want to snowboard that is the only option they have. Don't fault me for showing them there are other ways. I think I can teach a pretty successful first time lesson on my hard boots on an all mountain board with lower binding angles. I've done it for years and rarely have anyone even ask why my gear is different than what they are on. And if they do? I simply state that it is a different style: more race / carving oriented and leave it at that. Most of the time they are just envious of how quickly and easily I can get into my step-ins, which in my opinion makes it perfect to teach in! Perfect to give the student the help that s/he needs for a successful lesson while minimizing the crashes... that's what it's all about. Making the first experience on any type of snowboard a good one. I'm sure many of you remember what it was like when you first learned.... why would anyone less than a completely dedicated adult want to subject themselves to the pain and crashes? I sure wouldn't do it.

[Corey]

When Fin, Sean, Bruce, Chris retire, it will probably be time for me to hang it up too. If nobody fills their shoes, it probably won't affect me. It would be a sad thing, but that's about it.

That's a sad thought. I see the folks here that are 60+ and still riding, I hope I can make it another 25-30 years of riding!

My plan: Giving various board makers my money so they keep making boards, or buying used equipment so those folks can buy new boards. I'm doing my part. ;)

Edited January 29, 2013 by corey_dyck

[Daneille]

Even within the Hardboot Community there are "haters". Different schools of riding style generate the same types of comments. I can think someone is making beautiful turns, and someone else comes along and says that form is bad or not practical, when clearly it is for the person riding that way.

[b0ardski]

After reading some of the opinions on here I thought I get it from the horses mouth so to speak. the response seemed like a corporate speak write off. my email to pisa/assi.

Why does AASI ignore the viability of alpine carving; especially for older(30yrs+) riders and board curious skiers that have no intention or desire to slide a rail or box, or pull tricks in the air?

For an organization that purports to create a life long appreciation of the mountain experience, insisting on a duck stance and focusing on teens to twenty-somethings who want to ride parks, equates to denying half the population a chance to experience the joys of riding a single edge.

PSIA has Nordic, telemark, alpine and adaptive categories; why doesn't AASI have a hardboot alpine/carving category that caters to racers, skier crossovers and others that just want to make nice turns?

As a life long skier, telemarker and snowboarder who's wife has been a PSIA member for 20 years, this seems like an egregious error in AASI's marketing push.

I was an expert skier and telemarker before taking up snowboarding full time in my 30's and found soft boots inefficient and the "gorilla" stance used by AASI's model uncomfortable, so I gravitated to hard boots, plate bindings and carving.

Riding every weekend I talk to a lot of skiers and boarders that ask about my set up and the graceful turns they see; and I can only direct them to a couple of internet sites instead of ski school. Something is wrong with this picture.

Don't get me wrong, I tell everyone who wants to try snowboarding to "take a lesson 1st", but carve oriented instructors don't seem to exist, or are outright dissuaded. I know several duel certified instructors that have given up on AASI because of this park oriented focus, this seems <var id="yiv541255403yui-ie-cursor"></var>short sighted on your part.

Snowboard racing is an Olympic event so why is hardboot snowboarding ignored and discouraged?

You are market creators so please don't write these questions off by saying the gear manufacturers don't support it. The gear is out there, I see it on FIS, USASA racers and Olympians all the time and it is of the highest quality.

If you even consider this worthy of a response, I and the people I talk with daily about our beloved sport would like to understand your position.

Thank you

response

Hi Troy,

Thanks for your e-mail. I taught in hard boots for many years and can appreciate the grace and power of riding a race board.

Riding carving boards has been a part of snowboarding for a long time and has always been treated as one “style” of riding that AASI addresses. In fact, each of the educational manuals that we produce have referenced carving boards and equipment. And, as we develop our next manual, this will again be the case. Our ultimate goal is to provide instructors the knowledge and tools needed to address the widest range of riders possible and these rider’s corresponding range of motivations for riding. An instructor should be helping the guest achieve what the guest wants not what the instructors wants. AASI training and certifications also reinforce this by asking participants to be proficient carving and at basic freestyle.

Areas I have worked at, or been to, typically accommodate guests that are riding carving boards or are interested in learning how to ride like this. And, while many instructors don’t ride hard boots, there are still many teaching that understand and have the skills necessary to ride a carving board. A few divisions offer specific sessions to provide the opportunity for those instructors curious about hard boot riding or interested in developing or keeping their skills sharp. Some of these are race-oriented events and others are focused on carving.

Certainly there are many with strong personal opinions regarding hard boots. Ultimately, my goal is that we help the guest be the rider they want to be- whether this is carving trenches (in hard boots or soft), surfing the trees and steeps, boosting in the pipe, or simply cruising the groomers.

All the best!

Earl

Earl Saline

Professional Development Manager

[lonbordin]

Areas I have worked at, or been to, typically accommodate guests that are riding carving boards or are interested in learning how to ride like this. And, while many instructors don’t ride hard boots, there are still many teaching that understand and have the skills necessary to ride a carving board.

I've been to many resorts and have yet to see this... My inquiries at several resorts were met with blank stares, other's just said it's not offered.

Perhaps to help people come to the dark side (or just improve) we can have a forum sticky of places and instructors that offer the lost art.

PS- Thanks for doing that b0ardski... good call!

[kinpa]

PS- Thanks for doing that b0ardski... good call!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!! oh, should have figured..... it must be because we are in a more sparsely populated division, right???? HAHAHAHAHAA!!!! Maybe we should ask Fin or Sean or Bruce..... when was the last time you were asked by AASI to set up a demo tent at one of their events so all these so called diversified instructors can see what an alpine board is like and what some other options may be?

I came to Montana from the Eastern division. I've been here 10 + years now, so maybe things have changed? Maybe we should be looking at the events schedules for the various divisions to see what is offered? That will be a project for later.... maybe if you have time b0ardski?

[Steve Prokopiw]

When it comes to adult customers particularly,I don't believe a word of what Saline wrote.If his statement "..help the guest achieve what the guest wants and not what the instructor wants" was true there would be more than a few lip service sentences regarding alternatives to duck,carving with forward stances both in soft boots and hard,and racing in the manuals,not to mention much less suppression of the hardboot and or forward stance by ski schools and resort rentals.I have yet to meet a 'grownup' skier that 'wants' to snowboard so they can ride duck, and have never been approached by an adult skier who had tried snowboarding once or twice and 'wanted' to do it so they could ride duck(the only stance set up for beginning customers of all ages in the vast majority of rental shops,and the only stance endorsed/trained by most schools/trainers).In fact,unequivocally,mature skiers I have talked to tried it because the boots were 'comfy to walk in'. Who knows;maybe if the instructors weren't overwhelmingly trained to treat every age customer with what AASI wants and were trained to adapt to and explore what the 'customer wants',(and needs) more deeply, there might be far more retention when it comes to the adult lesson customer base.As a private lesson specialist I was able to help my adult customers figure these things out-and only rarely was it a duck stance,which I am happy to facilitate.But again,I have seen more evidence that snowboarding in the majority of schools is just for kids;and that grownups have to do what the kids 'want'.Example;if an adult skier tries snowboarding and is more comfortable and able to perform entry level maneuvers with a forward stance (after trying duck first,of course) that allows them a little more transfer from their skiing skills-would it it not be in fact,what they 'want'?

It should be noted,however,that racing is really the realm of actual racing programs and coaches;and while it would be great to see more of it,there are many excellent race coaches and programs out there-just not much tie in with the instruction world,and perhaps that's a good thing. Recreationally, though, I still think the adult AASI customer often gets the short end of the stick.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Steve Prokopiw

[kinpa]

Here, Here Steve! very well put....

how many adults even care about riding switch when it comes right down to it? I'm not sure where Earl Saline calls home, but it would certainly be interesting to see the number of adults who come back for lessons after they are able to link turns on blues.... if there is no interest in jibbing and bonking and freestyle, why should an adult waste their money on a lesson? I had a fellow carver tell me that he's yet to find an instructor that could teach him anything.... I'm sure there are some around, but where? and at what cost? perhaps all of us have given up on AASI ... too bad

Edited January 29, 2013 by kinpa

[dingbat]

The guy I took my level I with, Josh from Wachusett, was very well rounded, taught me some very worthwhile stuff that weekend, especially about riding bumps/trees, and took full advantage of my experience with alpine and the equipment I was on as a learning point for the class. I was on my softboot set-up, but even at that, it looked bizarre enough with the directional stance/board and bindings on risers that it got a lot of comments from the others in the class. A nice moment of comedy was when one of the other instructors asked why I'd ride such a stiff set-up for the level I exam in front of the whole class. Josh glanced at me and then told the guy that it was probably my softest rig. I saw some jaws drop when I confirmed it. I got plenty of questions through the weekend, and a few guys took my board for a spin. I guess my point is that the knowledge and interest probably exists among more individuals than you might think in AASI and the industry, but nobody is willing to admit it or put their money on it.

[lowrider]

I have three kids all instructors one dual certified. The oldest once commented that he wondered what it was like to take a lesson from the perspective of the student. I didn't quite understand what this statement ment untill he said," i always remember being able to ski and board". He was skiing and riding in a back pack from an early age (child abuse today). The fact that he wants to understand a student from the students perspective is what makes him a good instructor. The fact that the industry is selling a specific style is detrimental to the industry but i think most instructors see and teach through this shortfall. The fact that the managment doesn't reflect the reality isn't so much of a concern since they usually aren't on the hill in close contact with the student. The biggest issue forward will be are people actually taking lessons and on that point i believe the numbers are way down this year! Whether the trend continues will be the true indicator where the sport is going.

[softbootsurfer]

My Snowboard Vision? ... Well, There were no Instructors, I was on my Own the same as when learning both Surfing and Skating before...

I acquired my Snowboard Stance from Surfing and Skating because I was in tune with those sports with both feet aroundd 45 degs. . In My mind, that is the best place for ME to respond from... the Motion of both Surfing and Skating is the reason I stepped on a Snowboard in the first place. Having previously tried my Surfboard out at Ashcroft, and both the Snowster and Snurfer were just not going to work. When I am Snowboarding, I am Surfing and Skating...the Vision one brings to a Sport can help create the results they are seeking... my custom Bindings, that so upset a few here, are another piece of equipment that enables Me to achieve what I am trying to do...however they are neither HB or SB and hover somewhere in between those two worlds...

That first Season at Milk 28 years ago I remember meeting Bob Klein of Burton fame who was brought out by the Ski Co. to give lessons in Snowboarding...When he saw my set up, he said, "What are you trying to do ?" I said, "I am Surfing and Skating " the mountain.

Bob left about mid Jan. as No one wanted to learn Snowboarding at that point , at least not at Milk...I have always maintained the same stance and width as something that is solid and predictable, that Helps me to Live my Vision...

I Like this Forum because it has People who are Stoked about Carving, which for me personally represents a Motion that I share across 3 different Sports with One Vision...many days now in Aspen can go by with no HB's or Carvers at all... :o I have seen many come and go... :) of course I love all the Carving during the SES :D

Regardless of who else is out there, I will Snowboard seeking this Vision until I an unable to do so... :)

[kinpa]

And what would your response be, softbootsailer, if someone told you that you have to ride 15 / -15? Would you do it? I tried it and can't see any reason to do it. I like my directional stance, and I can still ride switch if I needed to.

[Mucknbullets]

As said I think that there needs to be a greater awareness in the sport of the different styles of boarding. I have had no interest in ever riding a pipe and duck stance does my legs in but that is just me. Go past an board park or big air jump into cushion and they are queuing up to use it so fair point to set things up for that area.

I was shocked last season to see lines of HBs coming down the hill in Bardonecchia, Italy and after a few questions found out that you have to be competent in both disciplines to be an Italian instructor. This is what piqued my interest as I have always felt dis-connected from the board in softies. Now that is probably more down to the hire equipment I have used up till now so for me HB is the way forward (I hope).

This is in contrast to a snotty hire shop guy in Livigno, Italy who had a right rant about the fact I had broken a toe strap and blamed it on the fact my board was probably 45/25. Err, firstly this is how I was taught to ride before you had left school (I will be 40 this year so not that old) and secondly isn't the customer always right? I can understand going off if I had handed him a pile of firewood and said "New board please" but 1 lousy toe strap that was replaced quicker than his rant took. Education and tolerance.

[dingbat]

I love teaching surfers to snowboard.

Go that way and try to pearl.

Done.

[softbootsurfer]

And what would your response be, softbootsailer, if someone told you that you have to ride 15 / -15? Would you do it? I tried it and can't see any reason to do it. I like my directional stance, and I can still ride switch if I needed to.

I would tell them to take a hike...

[kinpa]

I would tell them to take a hike...

Hmmmm..... Oh yeah, no "like" button on Bomber!

Done and did.... That's why I'm a ski instructor now! I hope they never try to tell me that I have to teach on those funny looking twin tip rockered skis!

Although, I'm not sure what the response would be if I showed up on old straight skis. I wonder if a 5 year old student would notice or care much?

I think I'm pretty safe that I can post here without my new ski school director reading it.... I would hate to get fired again for being too vocal!

The one snowboard instructor that got hired and showed up with a hard boot setup was forced to change to a soft boot low angle (maybe duck?) stance to teach... Did I mention that my new director is an examiner with AASI?

Edited January 29, 2013 by kinpa

[lowrider]

Hmmmm..... Oh yeah, no "like" button on Bomber!

Done and did.... That's why I'm a ski instructor now! I hope they never try to tell me that I have to teach on those funny looking twin tip rockered skis!

They have already told you you have to teach on a shaped ski haven't they ?

[kinpa]

They have already told you you have to teach on a shaped ski haven't they ?

See edit! But.... I am teaching on a $50 pair of skis that I got on Craigslist.... Come to find out the skis are for a beginner / low level intermediate skier... Should be perfect to teach on! The one guy there pretty high ranking (a tele examiner) is also a Rossi rep and made a comment about them.... Oh well. I thought it's better than teaching on my Fisher slalom CARVING ski! (Those skis are super fun! Might have to bring them next week!)

[charliechocolate]

I love teaching surfers to snowboard.

Go that way and try to pearl.

Done.

Ha. Not going to work with those who are dead-scared of and have had their face shoved into coral when pearling hard :D Nice analogy though.

[kinpa]

I've never surfed.... And I'm a super weenie scardy cat! How do you feel about teaching people like me? It's amazing I ever could link turns! I was so afraid to move that I'd do maybe three feet then sit down and spend the next 15 minutes trying to get up on heel side! And that's when I was 17! Good thing I didn't try to learn when I was 40. Probably would have never happened!

[lowrider]

Ha. Not going to work with those who are dead-scared of and have had their face shoved into coral when pearling hard :D Nice analogy though.

Is having your face shoved into coral the equivelant of a mackerel slap ?

[charliechocolate]

Is having your face shoved into coral the equivelant of a mackerel slap ?

If there's mackerel hiding in the coral, yes.

[dingbat]

Ha. Not going to work with those who are dead-scared of and have had their face shoved into coral when pearling hard :D Nice analogy though.

I wasn't joking. I have done exactly that with 3 people to date and had excellent results. All 3 could really surf though, not just get up and ride the foam of a shin-buster on their 10' soft top.

I've never surfed.... And I'm a super weenie scardy cat! How do you feel about teaching people like me? It's amazing I ever could link turns! I was so afraid to move that I'd do maybe three feet then sit down and spend the next 15 minutes trying to get up on heel side! And that's when I was 17! Good thing I didn't try to learn when I was 40. Probably would have never happened!

I love teaching people like you! After skating, gliding, J Turns, and the lift, I use a 3 step progression based on the gaspeadal technique that goes:

Straight edging. (side slip - stop, side slip - stop, side slip - stop)

to a one foot at a time shuffle where one end of the board slips as the other stays put, then switches, then switches, etc. proceeding straight down the fall line with the board sideways. (On toeside it is exactly like moonwalking.)

to timing the shuffle so the board slides forward as it slides down the hill. Essentially at this point they can stand up in control, start in the direction they want to go, make a skidded turn, and then stop.

Once you go through the progression on one edge, switch to the other. There are some nuances to it of course, like making sure you avoid having your student catch the downhill edge when working the progression on toeside for example. You need to be watching their core and posture closely the whole time as well. I'll often be on my boots rather than my board after doing the initial demonstration, and it works better in a private or semi-private than a group. Definitely not appropriate for a large group.

The whole idea is that you start from a point of control, standing up with the board edged in perpendicular to the fall line, and then slowly branch out from there. Once they can do both edges proficiently, i.e. garlanding all the way down a wide slope, sitting down and turning over to change edges, they have a comfortable home to get to when working on changing edges (C turns). No LTR required.

I have great success with it.

Edited January 30, 2013 by dingbat

[kinpa]

You would have lost me by the glide! Well, maybe not..... Probably wouldn't have even come for a lesson or gotten on a board to begin with!

I've been teaching for 20+ years so I pretty much know the drill... You are lucky if you have prefect terrain and wide open spaces to teach on, but not always a reality. Back on topic though, does the "fear" of the first time sway people away from even attempting it?