Pat Donnelly Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Denver, CO - A company is crediting significant interest amongst North American consumers for its decision to build a prototype of a revolutionary new snow groomer for the ski resort industry. An artist's rendering of the EcoGroomer The EcoGroomer improves snow grooming productivity by attaching two additional snow processing units (SPU’s), or tiller bars, to a standard snow cat. The result is a 200% increase in the surface area covered by one snow cat with a single operator. Fuel efficiency for nightly snow grooming is projected to be improved by more than 30%, with the potential to save over 20 million gallons of diesel for U.S. ski resorts alone by 2020 and reduce operating costs. Two patents have been filed by the inventor Daniel Osborne to cover key components of the system, reserving both U.S. and international patent rights. Three companies have been selected to participate in the competitive bid process to build the first of its kind SPU. Prinoth of North America, Germany’s Pisten Bully and Zaugg of Switzerland will be provided with a scope of work and request for proposal to complete their bids by June 15 to build the prototype. The SPU will be connected to a standard snow cat for testing of fuel economy, general performance and snow surface quality in variable snow conditions. Testing will occur this summer on an accessible glacier in Canada or Europe depending upon the manufacturer chosen to build the prototype. Additional testing and engineering will occur in the first part of the 2011-12 winter season. Full production and delivery to major ski resorts in North America may take place as early as the 2012-13 ski season and throughout Europe a year later, according to the company http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2011/05/18/company-building-prototype-of-revolutionary-snow-groomer/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 ahhh 1/3 of the regular the grooming ridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 That wouldn't fit down most of the runs at my local ski areas! ;) That's one of those head-slapping, 'well duh!', ideas. Of course! You'd need a top-notch operator to ensure all three heads are tracking the snow contours properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjl Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 It makes me think of: http://www.viddler.com/explore/loopytube/videos/819/ What about 400% more surface area? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcarve Posted May 19, 2011 Report Share Posted May 19, 2011 Interesting idea! I can see how it would be advantageous for large mountain resorts to use a groomer like the EcoGroomer. I look forward to seeing it in action some day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEJ Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Aww, come on John. Those ridges let us "Less than uber carvers" transition in the air! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleaman Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 there would be less overlap so probably more ridges. Also more broken equipment. Can you imagine how much this thing would be in the shop to keep working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 I'm wondering if those decks are weighted the same as cat. If not, you would end up with firmer base where the cat is and softer under the decks. Over time I think it would be fairly noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufty Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Obviously, your operator will need 4 hands and 3 heads. Driving a groomer is a constant juggle of blade angle, lift, attitude and machine speed. The machine pictured above would be possible to use and get decent results on perfectly smooth runs on days where it hasn't snowed and the cannons haven't been running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Doesn't the grooming process depend heavily on the finesse of the operator to use both the front plow/blade and the rear tiller/groomer in concert? If so I don't see how this would work. And if the "outrigger" sections of the machine are weighted as much as a cat or nearly so, they would probably need to have their own propulsion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 i'd say that was evolutionary. revolutionary would be using sound or telekinesis. ..And if the "outrigger" sections of the machine are weighted as much as a cat or nearly so, they would probably need to have their own propulsion. this was where it fell down for me. the extra weight will cause more churn under the tracks, giving an inconsistent surface across the slope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 There is nothing particularly 'eco' about snow surface maintenance. To pretend otherwise is marketing spoo. A revolution in grooming would be to groom less, and to discover that in some circumstances, the 'glisse' improves, customers stay happy, and revenue remains stable. Tractive power and ground pressure shouldn't be much of an issue. On the other hand, unless the auxiliary tillers are running on cracked elk scat, diesel consumption will likely remain the same or increase. As though Prinoth, Kassbohrer, et al, see no point in providing sufficient horsepower/torque for the intended use of their machines. Of course, they could be in cahoots with the oil companies... The articulating boom structure is remarkably similar to that used for highway flail mowers. These use hefty counterbalance weights to avoid overturning/breaking the tractors. As the booms on the 'green cat' articulate independently, and are not tied together to balance themselves, one could surmise that the deck and frame of the cat will require bolstering to avoid cracking. This of course adds weight, which draws power, while increasing compaction, offset by larger tracks, which adds weight, requiring more power etc. At least on eastern machine-made,(as Jack points out) the best grooming results often involve blade work, grading, and tilling; to selective depths based on the prevalent weather conditions. The GET (or, in this case, SET) at front and rear of the machine should be matched. If you want a quality groom, there is a practical limit to surface-feet/minute and feed rate. As Tufty mentioned, running multiple tasks simultaneously without operator mutation/ helper monkey can be a challenge. With advances in computer control and contour mapping, a resort should be able to purchase what is essentially a CNC groomer. The cost of which could be covered by selling off the contents of resort 'lost and found' at the end of the season. Move less snow, burn less fuel. Kinda like hardbooting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 A revolution in grooming would be to groom less, and to discover that in some circumstances, the 'glisse' improves, customers stay happy, and revenue remains stable. That's just crazy talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boarderboy Posted June 9, 2011 Report Share Posted June 9, 2011 A revolution in grooming would be to groom less, and to discover that in some circumstances, the 'glisse' improves, customers stay happy, and revenue remains stable. Move less snow, burn less fuel. Kinda like hardbooting... As opposed to Mad River Glen, anyone know how Mont Sutton (one of the Quebec Towhships slopes, ?) has fared as a "less is more" grooming operation. Never see it mentioned here, so I'm assuming it's not a great carve destination. However, I think it has some 'easier' tree skiing, so I've always wanted to go there. Closest I've gotten is Jay Peak... cheers BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Sutton not great as a destination resort but to include as a comparison while visiting Jay is a great idea. Early and late snow gives them an edge for early turns. There grooming is good but not a lot of wide open runs. If you like old school resorts and some retro double chairs give them a try.Lots of glades as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Take your average 'quality' road racing bicycle; carbon fork, deep section rims, etc, and blast down an abandoned railroad grade, through the loose cinders and wheeler whoops; or over a gravel road at speed, pebbles pinging through the spokes and thwocking off the oversized down tube. It's a hoot. Do it enough and it will no doubt improve your handling skills. It will also tell you things about your bike fit/component selection that you might prefer not to know. Quality groom certainly provides a nice experience. Not requiring good groom to enjoy the ride is another experience entirely. Quite often, the snow would be better a few days hence if it was not groomed now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Take your average 'quality' road racing bicycle; carbon fork, deep section rims, etc, and blast down an abandoned railroad grade, through the loose cinders and wheeler whoops; ... Been there, done that, works ok, including tubular tyres on cinder. Not the best thing, but it can be done. I think that went over my head. As though Prinoth, Kassbohrer, et al, see no point in providing sufficient horsepower/torque for the intended use of their machines. ... Not sure I get that either... you buy the size of machine you want to buy - bigger numbers have bigger engines, just like with cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Quality groom certainly provides a nice experience. Not requiring good groom to enjoy the ride is another experience entirely. I can carve and enjoy imperfect snow surfaces, but unlike certain types who like to ride old "shabby-chic" boards by choice, I do not get off on suffering. ;) Quite often, the snow would be better a few days hence if it was not groomed now. Still not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean wait to groom after a snowstorm? Or just groom less often in general? If the former, man I wish Sugarloaf would get out there and groom while it's still snowing and again immediately after it stops. So often we'll get 6 inches of snow followed by a foot of wind! I wish they'd pack it down before it all gets scoured away. If the latter, um, I'm still not sure why that would be a good thing....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted June 18, 2011 Report Share Posted June 18, 2011 Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Beckmann AG Quality groom certainly provides a nice experience. Not requiring good groom to enjoy the ride is another experience entirely. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> I can carve and enjoy imperfect snow surfaces, but unlike certain types who like to ride old "shabby-chic" boards by choice, I do not get off on suffering. ;) Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Quite often, the snow would be better a few days hence if it was not groomed now. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Still not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean wait to groom after a snowstorm? Or just groom less often in general? If the former, man I wish Sugarloaf would get out there and groom while it's still snowing and again immediately after it stops. So often we'll get 6 inches of snow followed by a foot of wind! I wish they'd pack it down before it all gets scoured away. If the latter, um, I'm still not sure why that would be a good thing....? Re: Suffering. Sentence appears to contain at least one non-sequitur? E.g., Faulty equation of manufacturing date with relative misery?As to the grooming thing: As you well know, the northeastern mountains experience periodic thaws. Depending on the weather trend, if grooming was halted for 24-36 hrs, most of the free water would have time to drain as the temperature drops, after which grooming would leave a 'lighter' surface. Grooming on schedule post-thaw ensures that any excess moisture is fully integrated into the rest of the snow, much like using a squeegee to fully 'wet out' fibreglas with resin. When the temperature drops to seasonal norms, the corduroy is hard as, well, cured epoxy on your favorite hull. Ideally, grooming would follow snow science, and integrate with, rather than simply follow, market demands. This implies either not grooming select trails at certain times, or grooming particular aspects when it really matters. A reasonable notion when one considers the cost/hr. Of course you can imagine the uproar if a BR was out tracking and packing during a windy powder day. Not to mention the potential liability. You might also note that Sugarloaf has recently converted their snow reporting to the metric system; as such, wind is typically measured in meters, not feet. __________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted June 21, 2011 Report Share Posted June 21, 2011 As you well know, the northeastern mountains experience periodic thaws. Depending on the weather trend, if grooming was halted for 24-36 hrs, most of the free water would have time to drain as the temperature drops, after which grooming would leave a 'lighter' surface. Grooming on schedule post-thaw ensures that any excess moisture is fully integrated into the rest of the snow, much like using a squeegee to fully 'wet out' fibreglas with resin. When the temperature drops to seasonal norms, the corduroy is hard as, well, cured epoxy on your favorite hull.Ideally, grooming would follow snow science, and integrate with, rather than simply follow, market demands. This implies either not grooming select trails at certain times, or grooming particular aspects when it really matters. A reasonable notion when one considers the cost/hr. Given that Sugarloaf can't even figure it out that leaving rock-hard ice moguls down the side of Spillway renders one third of the trail unusable, I don't have high hopes that they could grasp such logic. That said, I have been pleasantly surprised with the quality of grooming and the edgeability of the snow surface after a thaw/freeze in recent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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