Technique Question - getting lower

[Surf Quebec]

Jtslalom, I've only put a pic of one of the extremecarving guy.

Like Corey, I like both styles and trying to improve in both styles.

[pokkis]

Where you get idea that snow is soft in that picture of Patrice?

[Zone]

Surf Quebec,

Look at that nice incredibly soft snow Patrice is riding on. Also look at how his body breaks the plane of his board in transition before his knees do. He can get away with this because the fact that he is riding on HERO snow. I would like to see him do it on an icy diamond slope.

That's a big presumption. In fact Patrice carves the same on hard icy snow, as witnessed by my brother who used to live and carve in Montreal.

[kieran]

Where you get idea that snow is soft in that picture of Patrice?

agreed, that is not hero snow. IMO it looks more like hosed-down overnight hardpack that's been scrubbed a bit.

[Zone]

The truth is somewhere in the middle as usual.

I think 'bomber/racing' style is definitely better for really icy/hard condition as far as not skidding etc...on the other hand I think EC has been put down over the years as not possible in hard/icy conditions and so some of us are rather sensitive on the topic.

And the topic is about EC, not about which style is better in this thread.

It can be done, esp. by talented guys like Patrice on a consistent basis, and I think actually easier when very steep. However for mortals like myself, it's definitely not 100% success ( I would say 50%, better on heelside for me) and I either pass or go into huge chatter (and it would hurt on icy conditions).

[KingCrimson]

I think early edge pressure/angle is the name of the game. You can't expect to be on slippy snow and load the board up in the traverse. You are never ever ever going to chatter the board up the fall line, so you need to take advantage of that opportunity to hook up the board and scrub speed.

Layout turns give people the tendency to do the opposite, since the snow is closest when you're in the traverse.

[James Ong]

Surf Quebec,

He can get away with this because the fact that he is riding on HERO snow. I would like to see him do it on an icy diamond slope.

(IMO) It is MUCH BETTER to model your technique of riding after EricJ's type of riding then it is on Patrice's. Drive your turns with your knees, not your upper body.

If you read Corey's original post you will see that he understands the limitations of EC, i don't think he was asking what's better just a " how to".

Not the place for the old " i'm better cause i ride out east " attitiude.

[Neil Gendzwill]

(IMO) It is MUCH BETTER to model your technique of riding after EricJ's type of riding then it is on Patrice's.

That wasn't the question. Corey is perfectly capable of riding in the angulated style, in fact that's what he does most of the time as he faces icy prairie conditions. He had the opportunity out west to have some fun with laid-out turns and he's asking for advice on them.

[Zone]

1+

EC is really not about which style is better than which. It just happen to be really fun style to do and watch.

I ride almost every time with a bunch of racers, and they out carve me all the time. However I like to have my head below my board in the turns (and my kids have a ball watching me do it, bonus to be a cool dad)

[Jack M]

Somewhere on this site there is a picture of great rider named EricJ. It shows him driving his knees starting a new carve just after transition. That knee drive is just about perfect for a freeride carver. I hope some one who has this picture posts it. (IMO) It is MUCH BETTER to model your technique of riding after EricJ's type of riding

This one?

I agree Erik J is the man.

[Zone]

Thanks Jack, would you have his heelside also by any chance? Or video would be even better.

[Helmut Karvlow]

This one?

I agree Erik J is the man.

Eric is a freek of carving and there will never be a 2nd Eric!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jack M]

Thanks Jack, would you have his heelside also by any chance? Or video would be even better.

I don't, sadly. Perhaps my heelside will suffice? Obviously not EC and please pardon the hat and borrowed goggles - I forgot my helmet & goggles this day...

[Zone]

LOL, thanks, looks great from the neck down.

I've been trying this lately but my butt is nowhere near the snow like yours!

[queequeg]

This one?

I agree Erik J is the man.

I love this photo!! Breakin the Law!! Breakin the Law!! Breakin the Law!!!

I don't, sadly. Perhaps my heelside will suffice? Obviously not EC and please pardon the hat and borrowed goggles - I forgot my helmet & goggles this day...

This also demonstrates perfect heelside facial technique! The more you grimace, the lower you get!

[Jack M]

This also demonstrates perfect heelside facial technique! The more you grimace, the lower you get!

fo sho!

[Corey]

Yeah, I'm not interested in the debate of 'EC sucks, angulation rules!' or the opposite. I want to do both, and ride switch, and put on some skis next year with my daughter, and learn to ride a unicycle, and etc... It's all fun.

Definitely going to work on nailing an early and hard edge transition. The more I think about this, that's what is missing on my heelside turns. I'm quite comfortable doing what that cool picture of ErikJ shows (not as well or stylish ;)) but I can't do similar on the heelside.

I've been amazed how low you can get in a pure carved turn even on quite hard manmade snow with the push-pull technique. I can get lower than an equivalent East-coast style on the same surface, as I know the board is only going to be that far from my center of gravity for a split second and then it'll come back under to catch me. Kind of like riding a bicycle in a straight line and doing an emergency swerve around a big pothole.

[RCrobar]

Great Thread Corey! Watching your video tells me that you are a very skilled rider that will have whatever technique you choose to learn dialed in quickly.

The rider that can do both techniques and pull out the one that best fits the conditions really is a complete rider. I realize that this thread is about getting low, but I would like to point out another area of riding where the rotation and push-pull techniques are excellent; freeriding.

My local resorts are quite good for freerding. Lots of snow, poor grooming and tree riding off piste' is what I see a lot of. I also see a LOT of the lumpy, bumpy, chewed up crap that can really kick and throw you around. When riding in these types of conditions I have found that when using the static upper body technique it is VERY difficult not to get chucked around to the point where you have counter rotated and are off balance for the next turn; this is particularly an issue when riding trees! Using the rotation technique has basically eliminated counter rotations, which has made it much easier to ride very lumpy, bumpy crap that kicks you around like a bucking bronco.

I believe learning to carve low amplifies riding errors in a person's technique. For me personally, cleaning up my EC rotation technique as best I could and trying to carve low has lead to a dramatic improvement in my freeriding ability. Like most things in life there is a trade off, this seems to hold true when comparing technique A vs B. Problem solved if you have them both in your bag of tricks.

Cheers

Rob

[Beckmann AG]

If I couldn't get much lower on the toeside turn I'd argue that the snow is too hard to support that aggressive turn style, so that argument falls apart... Thoughts or suggestions?

Perhaps, if you are able to 'get lower' and stand up at the end of a toeside, then replicating your toeside bodily orientation to the board on the heelside might provide similar results? After all, the board is symmetric, and should provide like results on each edge?

From your first video clip, as well as the still photos, it is apparent that your body is arranged differently on the heelside as opposed to the toeside. On the toeside, you are stacked up more or less directly over the topsheet, whereas on the heelside, much of your body is hanging off to the side. If you note, in the EC photomontage, particularly in the last 6 frames, the rider is stacked atop the board, which allows for more even decamber of the board, more consistent control of available pressure, and a longer duration over which that control may be exercised.

[Corey]

Perhaps, if you are able to 'get lower' and stand up at the end of a toeside...

Everything else makes perfect sense, but I don't understand this statement. Can you say that another way?

This thread is giving me exactly the feedback I was hoping for!

[Beckmann AG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beckmann AG

Perhaps, if you are able to 'get lower' and stand up at the end of a toeside...

Everything else makes perfect sense, but I don't understand this statement. Can you say that another way?

From your first post, where it reads as though you are very close to, if not successful, in EC-ing a toeside turn. Supported in post #13 where you show a photo of yourself laid out, and the statement that you were able to 'stand up' somewhere after that photo.

In other words, if your toeside mechanics are working (or very close to working), then why are you expecting similar results on the heelside if the mechanics are different?

Unless I misunderstood something.

[Corey]

Ahh, I understand what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.

[James Ong]

As a few people have noted rotation is the key, you really cannot rotate enough on heelside. When i go into the heelside i try to point my head uphill, this serves to get me more upright which seems to work better for me and helps me get a few more degrees of rotation.

Another thing you might try is during the transition instead of pull/ push try doing a more gradual pull/ release , don't extend your legs all the way.

Transition speed is also important, notice on Patrice's photo sequence he is done with the meaty part of the turn before he starts going across the fall line. I think that while you are going across the fall line the only things that should be happening is that you are in the pulling part of the sequence and maybe letting the board run a bit if you need to pick up speed.

Have faith in the technique, you might just have to throw yourself down onto the snow a few times before it clicks.

Btw good riding with you at SES and my monster IS as big as you think.

[kieran]

As a few people have noted rotation is the key, you really cannot rotate enough on heelside. When i go into the heelside i try to point my head uphill, this serves to get me more upright which seems to work better for me and helps me get a few more degrees of rotation.

even at novice level this is true. i used to wash out spectacularly on my heelsides, because i was facing downhill, but looking over at where i was turning through the side of my helmet. as soon as i turned my head over to face where i was heading, my shoulders followed, and my hips tried to. that changed everything.

[Zone]

From your first post, where it reads as though you are very close to, if not successful, in EC-ing a toeside turn. Supported in post #13 where you show a photo of yourself laid out, and the statement that you were able to 'stand up' somewhere after that photo.

In other words, if your toeside mechanics are working (or very close to working), then why are you expecting similar results on the heelside if the mechanics are different?

Unless I misunderstood something.

Because heelside EC is notoriously more difficult to achieve. You're back to the bottom of the hill, can't see where you're taking the plunge, can't tell if there is going to be a straightliner on the other side etc... For me, at some level, that held me back (at least on steep), having to blindly commit to go head down below your board...so you look where you're going, you rotate the shoulder where you're going, but the bottom half of your body is screaming 'no way Jose!' and you end up with counter rotation and spectacular wash out...